Computer programmers without a degree how did you break in ?

[Fhqwghads]

Step 1. Had interest in computers
Step 2. Had interest in all things that made computers do what they do.
Step 3. Grabbed books and researched and learned.
Step 4. Practiced what was learned
Step 5. Prove that can do what you do exquisitely well
Step 6. Give employer the "wow" factor they're looking for

That about sums it up for me. I'm currently working for the largest software firm in the world (you figure it out.) I will say that I did luck out in that at the time there was a niche team that developed a niche technology that I just happened to have a decent amount of experience with. I applied, they saw a demo of something I had worked on using similar technology, and I was hired. I think they got the impression that I could adapt to just about any team I might migrate to later on, and that's a key factor that influences the hire/no hire decision here. Good thing they were right with their intuition, because it's been years since I was working on that slice of technology and have moved on to other things in the company.

Anyway, that's the way I got in without a degree. I'm sure there's other variations that would work also.

[Jefe]

Or get a degree thats not in CS and get a job that pays more than 30k a year.

(Prepare for onslaught of people with CS degrees that make more than 30k a year posting in anger).

Seriously though, any engineer or scientist is expected to know how to program, get an engineering degree and open up your options alot more than the overflooded CS market.

I know "some" programming in C, C++, Java, Flash, however, my Computer Engineering dept doesn't require us to take other courses beyond the C and C++. Of course, all computer/electrical engineering must know Verilog. It's basically a way to test the logical gates, etc.

[Khamsin]

Learning to program is a lot like learning to draw. Unless you do it every single day you're never going to get better. All the formal education does in enforce the 'every day' part of learning to program. The degree people earn is a simple way to prove your dedication to the craft.

If you're self-motivated enough that you can program something every day that's actually useful to human beings (i.e. 'I maintain the HTML on my livejournal' doesn't count) then that can be used as attractive experience in the eyes of prospective employer. You won't get a great salary but it's enough for a junior position in a consulting firm, at least (think Accenture). If you're not doing that then you'll need a degree of some sort. You don't just get to show up, say 'I want to be a programmer' and get a job.

As a hobbyist, I'm nowhere near the level of someone who does it religiously (and my code looks like shit), although I've always just used programming to make my own personal tasks easier or make things for myself that I otherwise would have to buy/download. At that level, programming knowledge is pretty damn useful. I'd just never want to have an actual career in it, though.

To make it big as a programmer, I'd imagine it'd be somewhat like finding a productive career as a graphic artist or writer. You pretty much have to have a great portfolio and show off what you can do, both technologically and creatively. A degree alone will probably not give anyone the dream job they're after. Programming daily on the side helps, but lacks the teamwork aspect of programming. Since my code looks like shit, nobody but me will understand it.

If you (the OP) have programmer friends, maybe get together with them and practice working on a team project. Work on several team projects. Make a few things you can be proud to show off, not just the end product but the code, too. Demonstrate that you can work in modules with several people. If you can self-motivate yourself to do that daily, then you're on your way to a great portfolio.

[Zigma]

A+ = GeekSquad

N+ = GeekSquad

CCNA = Hay thar FBI/CIA.

Eh, like, a shitload of people who have their A+ and N+ easily make $50,000/year. People who work at Geeksquad don't have shit for certs. Also, You can get really lucky and be a wins admin and not have any certs/formal training/education at all. You just have to know how to sell yourself when that interview comes. HRs from many different companies just know the hot keywords like mcse, mcsa etc, but when they actually hire the person, it turns out they don't know shit.

[Correction]

Well clearly you need other marketable job skills in order to get a real career started (teamwork, self-starting, source control) and I took it for granted that 'program every day' implied one would eventually gravitate towards interests in projects larger than simple toy programs you write for yourself (nobody cares if you can write perl scripts to grovel through textfiles). To this end contributing to open source software looks awesome on any resume, even without a degree.

[Kiro]

I was just kidding, lol. I was at Best Buy and apparently everyone their who works at Geek Squad requires an A+ Certificate. But apparently they only make $14-$15 an hour there, when they could be making around $18-$19 at other places.

One of my friends lucked out big time, since he lives way out in the "Middle of nowhere" and has an A+ certificate, he's one of like.. 20 people in his entire area, which consists of 2 itty bitty towns and 1 other town that is basically nothing but a trucker stop (Gas station/food-mart, cafe, post office, fire department for the whole 3 towns, and a truck supply place). So basically he does on-site work from his house, and just drives from business to business doing basic caca work a high school kid could do these days, and he charges $34 an hour.

Edit: A lot of people going for these degrees/certificates also forget how useful it is to learn about copy machines, fax machines and printers. I think it's basic knowledge at this point, but it was looked over a lot when I was in high school. Even in my "omg advanced networking" class, which was basically nothing but an hour of a handful of students running around the school fixing teacher computers and library computers.

[Zigma]

I was just kidding, lol. I was at Best Buy and apparently everyone their who works at Geek Squad requires an A+ Certificate. But apparently they only make $14-$15 an hour there, when they could be making around $18-$19 at other places.

One of my friends lucked out big time, since he lives way out in the "Middle of nowhere" and has an A+ certificate, he's one of like.. 20 people in his entire area, which consists of 2 itty bitty towns and 1 other town that is basically nothing but a trucker stop (Gas station/food-mart, cafe, post office, fire department for the whole 3 towns, and a truck supply place). So basically he does on-site work from his house, and just drives from business to business doing basic caca work a high school kid could do these days, and he charges $34 an hour.

Edit: A lot of people going for these degrees/certificates also forget how useful it is to learn about copy machines, fax machines and printers. I think it's basic knowledge at this point, but it was looked over a lot when I was in high school. Even in my "omg advanced networking" class, which was basically nothing but an hour of a handful of students running around the school fixing teacher computers and library computers.

Thats awesome, however, it sucks when you don't get paid for travel time.

[Kiro]

Yeah, but the thing is between the 3 towns he goes to from his house is really short. I could whip out a map of it, but basically he drives from Chimacum (the trucker stop "town" I was talking about) and then heads to Port Hadlock (decent-sized town) which is barely a 4 minute drive from where he lives. Then there's Port Townsend, which is maybe 15-20 minutes from where he lives.

All in all he could knock out the jobs in Chimacum and Port Hadlock before heading to Port Townsend where most of his work is, and then just head home. He spends less money on gas than I do in a month and I ride the bus to work almost 3 times a week.

[Neosutra]

Or get a degree thats not in CS and get a job that pays more than 30k a year.

(Prepare for onslaught of people with CS degrees that make more than 30k a year posting in anger).

Seriously though, any engineer or scientist is expected to know how to program, get an engineering degree and open up your options alot more than the overflooded CS market.

Chock full of retarded statements.

Also, I firmly believe that although a degree isn't necessary to perform job duties, it is required to get a strong foot in the door of the job market. My dad is now making six figures as a nuclear engineer and he didn't go to college, but he did get a semi-formal education in the Navy in sonar and nuclear technologies. He spent years having to move around the country to find work and at one point was living in a double wide trailer in the middle of Tennessee, setting up power plants and substations. All his financial trouble could have easily been avoided if he just got his degree.

I also laugh at people who get a degree in a math/science field and think their education is done when the degree is. People fail to realize that to stay relevant in today's world, you really have to have a continuous education your entire working life.

How is anything you said relevant to what I said?

I didnt say "without an engineering/science degree you'll fail in life". I said the CS market is overflooded and you will find yourself with better job prospects in a field that offers a wider variety of skill sets.

"My dady did good w/o education", ya no shit, so did mine, want to compare cock sizes now dumbass?

Yes, there are people that do fine w/o degrees. Yes there are people who do fine WITH CS degree. But the plain the simple truth is the market for CS is and has been flooded for a while now and you will find yourself with alot more oportunities in life following other career paths (not to mention learn more about computer engineering/programing).

And who the fuck gets a degree in math/science and thinks they are done? The only thing a B.S. in physics will teach you is that you need more education.

[wyrmtung]

I read a recent Digg post that was discussing the merits of a Computer Science Degree for programmers. One of the responses posted said some the best programmers the person worked with didn't have degrees at all.

So to those of you who are working programmers, yet don't have degree's, how did you break into the job market ?

I'm no programmer but I've seen many movies and TV shows. You have to hack into the systems of which ever company you are interested in or a government agency. Maybe leave a calling card of some sort so it's easier for them to track you down later. Just sit back and wait for them to show up at your door or in the back seat of your car. Of course they will have some mission that requires your unique computer skillz.

[Kiro]

I read a recent Digg post that was discussing the merits of a Computer Science Degree for programmers. One of the responses posted said some the best programmers the person worked with didn't have degrees at all.

So to those of you who are working programmers, yet don't have degree's, how did you break into the job market ?

I'm no programmer but I've seen many movies and TV shows. You have to hack into the systems of which ever company you are interested in or a government agency. Maybe leave a calling card of some sort so it's easier for them to track you down later. Just sit back and wait for them to show up at your door or in the back seat of your car. Of course they will have some mission that requires your unique computer skillz.

If only it was like that. Although that does happen. Only one I remember was some kid starting one of those e-mail viruses that were all superomgpopular around Y2K time. I think the CIA hired him, lol.

[Khamsin]

I read a recent Digg post that was discussing the merits of a Computer Science Degree for programmers. One of the responses posted said some the best programmers the person worked with didn't have degrees at all.

So to those of you who are working programmers, yet don't have degree's, how did you break into the job market ?

I'm no programmer but I've seen many movies and TV shows. You have to hack into the systems of which ever company you are interested in or a government agency. Maybe leave a calling card of some sort so it's easier for them to track you down later. Just sit back and wait for them to show up at your door or in the back seat of your car. Of course they will have some mission that requires your unique computer skillz.

GUY: Hey CIA, I want a job with you.
CIA: Why should we hire you?
GUY: I hacked into your secret database and know all your classified and top secret information. See how good I am?
CIA: Does your family and friends know you're here?
GUY: I have no friends, and I haven't talked to my family in years.
CIA: Great, just follow me into this back room here for your interview.

After that is where the movies and real life start to diverge.

[ismarc]

Where I work at, there are tons of jokes about the people with CS degrees. The biggest thing is, programming isn't a science in that you can apply the same formula to any problem and have it work out, there's a great deal of art in how the problem is approached. However, programming isn't an art because no matter how elegant it looks, there's probably a stupidly simple solution. People who have CS degrees seem to focus in 1 of 2 areas (if they focused on programming at all)...Theory or Language. The problem is, the language you're programming in is independent of the problem you're solving yet the theory is useless if you don't know the language. Honestly, if a CS degree taught everyone how to be an excellent developer, it would either be an 8 year degree or they'd have to cut out all of the core classes. Every person we get with a CS degree and less than 5 years experience has to be taught how to actually develop. Sure they could write a program that compiles and runs, but rarely do they have a grasp of the complexity of the projects they're going to work on, or how to properly design or use someone else's design of an application interface. A CS degree guarantees only one thing to an employer, and that's the fact that someone spent 4 years and a lot of money on a piece of paper. But when someone walks in and says "I know x languages, I've worked on y open-source projects, I've created z programs for utility or educational purposes, and come with my library of useful snippets and datastructures."(pre-Standard Template Library folks know what I'm talking about).

The biggest key is that some people are developers, others aren't. That's the thing about the industry, if you can quantify everything you've done to hone your development skills as experience, you never have to have been paid to develop before you have a good job doing it. I think my biggest help is 4 of the 5 big projects I list on my resume you can plug into google and in the first hit they list in the release notes the exact contributions I made to the project.

[finale23]

Internship.

CompTIA.

???

Profit

That's still some kind of certification/formal education :D

CCNA/CCNP/CCIE imo

i agree. unless you're some genius hacker/programmer with skills that can astound employers, you ganna need some sort of certification/degree in order to get your foot in the door. there're so many entry level positions out there asking for at least 1-3 years of work experience, it's hard to get a decent paying job even with a degree and internships.

[Kiro]

Which is why you over-exaggerate on your resume. :rocl:

3 years of computer networking required? Oh snap, I had 4 desktops and a laptop on a home-wired / wireless network that I kept together while I was in high school. BAMF.

2 years of PC hardware experience required? I built my first computer when I was 13 and have been doing so, with profit, for 8 years now. BAMF.

Of course, you don't word it like that, obviously.

There are SOOOOOOO many companies out there that are incredibly stupid when it comes to hiring network admins or basic PC techs. If your resume has the answers they need, and your cover letter is above average. Grats, you got a $44k a year job doing what you've done at home for free.


Edit: The way you guys are talking about not being able to get any decent IT job without a degree, it's like you're aiming for those crazy jobs like Network Engineer or SW Engineering/Dev work.

[wyrmtung]

Which is why you over-exaggerate on your resume. :rocl:

3 years of computer networking required? Oh snap, I had 4 desktops and a laptop on a home-wired / wireless network that I kept together while I was in high school. BAMF.

2 years of PC hardware experience required? I built my first computer when I was 13 and have been doing so, with profit, for 8 years now. BAMF.

Of course, you don't word it like that, obviously.

There are SOOOOOOO many companies out there that are incredibly stupid when it comes to hiring network admins or basic PC techs. If your resume has the answers they need, and your cover letter is above average. Grats, you got a $44k a year job doing what you've done at home for free.


Edit: The way you guys are talking about not being able to get any decent IT job without a degree, it's like you're aiming for those crazy jobs like Network Engineer or SW Engineering/Dev work.

The OP is talking about a programming job, not some IT monkey who reboots PCs for a living.

[Zhais]

I'm personally aiming for a game dev job.... so I need all the help I can get in terms of resume fluff :D

CS degree should be a big help. I plan on working on some games here at the college with a group of people that are starting up a game dev organization. That in itself should be a big boost. Already have a couple GBA games I made for class and a 3D game environment level for use as a portfolio.

Anyone at all that has tried to get in to such a job or is in it have any tips? :D

[Kiro]

The OP is talking about a programming job, not some IT monkey who reboots PCs for a living.

Hey that IT monkey gets a lot of money to reboot those PCs. :<

[Khamsin]

I'm personally aiming for a game dev job

I don't think I could be a game dev. It'd probably ruin my enjoyment of games in general.

Although programming interested me in high school/college, I chose to become an engineer instead and save computer stuff for hobbies. I enjoy my career while on the job, and since I can't exactly do engineering on my own time for fun, there's no chance of ruining my enjoyment outside of work by overexposure.

What do programmers make, anyway? Not tech or networking guys, but actual programmers? Say, around the 4 years experience mark.

[Correction]

The magic line where you start making the big bucks is 5 solid years of experience. Any experience in management/design are an even bigger plus and your salary will skyrocket.

4 years? Don't expect 6 figures yet.

And good luck breaking into the gaming industry. That's about as competetive a job market as you can come across. You either a) know someone on the inside or b) find somewhere else to work.