Shoot to wound mentality

[Beckwin]

People who say "why don't you just ban guns" without recognizing the different positive aspects of a gun-owning population both currently and historically and countering those points make me /facepalm.

Your revolutionary original idea is neither.

What positive aspect is there to a gun-owning population?

You get to show your classmates what you really think about them.

[Correction]

I think that's what I said: case-by-case basis.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was just making the point that laws are already in place to punish cops who go too far. Their enforcement may be lacking in some famous cases, but I don't see how special laws that blanket over the entire police force are going to make life that much better.

[Howard Roark]

People who say "why don't you just ban guns" without recognizing the different positive aspects of a gun-owning population both currently and historically and countering those points make me /facepalm.

Your revolutionary original idea is neither.

What positive aspect is there to a gun-owning population?

In Katrina situations you can defend yourself.

And here's an onslaught of quotes for you.

" ... to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
-- George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

"Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of citizens to keep and bear arms ... The right of citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard, against the tyranny which now appears remote in America but which historically has proven to be always possible."
-- Hubert H. Humphrey, Senator, Vice President, 22 October 1959

" ... most attractive to Americans, the possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave, it being the ultimate means by which freedom was to be preserved."
-- James Burgh, 18th century English Libertarian writer, Shalhope, The Ideological Origins of the Second Amendment, p.604

"The militia is the natural defense of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpation of power by rulers. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of the republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally ... enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
-- Joseph Story, Supreme Court Justice, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, p. 3:746-7, 1833

nice, any more civil war heroes quotes in response to a modern day issue of misuse of firearms? that's like quoting shakespeare in response to laws about the internet

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

" ... to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
-- George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380

I find those two to be relevant no matter the year. The other two at least sounded good, and one was said in '59.

[Howard Roark]

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

" ... to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
-- George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380

I find those two to be relevant no matter the year. The other two at least sounded good, and one was said in '59.

weren't you guys still fighting off the british to an extent? pretty sure that was the context

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

" ... to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
-- George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380

I find those two to be relevant no matter the year. The other two at least sounded good, and one was said in '59.

weren't you guys still fighting off the british to an extent? pretty sure that was the context

In 1787? In 1959? In 1833?

[Howard Roark]

first of all, forget the 1959, you know what i'm talking about

i'm too lazy to look up who you were fighting during those other years (cuz lord knows the states can't go 10 years without a war) but i don't think things were policed as well as they are now (with recognized and regulated departments) and people needed to be armed against bandits (read: criminals) in secluded areas (when DID the west calm down anyway?)

i hardly think that an unarmed populace these days is 'one step closer to slavery' but i also disagree with completely disarming everyone (especially the police)

i've said earlier that i don't have a proposed solution (gun control is not an easy situation to fix/draw concrete lines of right and wrong) but I just think that quotes spoken with the current situation/context in mind would be more appropriate rather than some lame NRA pamphlet copypasta that old man heston has been spouting for 50 years

[Beckwin]

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

" ... to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
-- George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380

I find those two to be relevant no matter the year. The other two at least sounded good, and one was said in '59.

Right, so we can shoot cops when they're oppressing us.

TJ and Mason's eras have both passed in terms of guns and an armed populace. Any violent opposition to our government today would require some kind of military action to be anywhere near successful, because as it is a group of armed citizens storming a city hall or state capitol or Washington DC is gonna end up being a rather one-sided bloodbath with the survivors being charged with treason/terrorism/etc.

[Beckwin]

Causes of line-of-duty deaths 1900-1998  
   1. Firearms (6,846 or 49%)
   2. Automobile Accidents (2,090 or 15%)
   3. Motorcycle Accidents (1,022 or 7%)
   4. Struck by Vehicle (955 or 7%)
   5. Job-related Illness (588 or 4%)
   6. Aircraft Accidents (311 or 2%)
   7. Stabbings (197 or 1%)
   8. Fall (147 or 1%)
   9. Drowning (142 or 1%)
  10. Beaten (134 or 1%)

Officer deaths in 2007:
Total Line of Duty Deaths: 179

9/11 related illness: 5
Accidental: 3
Aircraft accident: 3
Animal related: 1
Automobile accident: 47
Boating accident: 1
Bomb: 5
Drowned: 3
Exposure to toxins: 1
Fall: 2
Gunfire: 63
Gunfire (Accidental): 4
Heart attack: 7
Heat exhaustion: 1
Motorcycle accident: 5
Struck by vehicle: 9
Vehicle pursuit: 6
Vehicular assault: 11
Weather/Natural disaster: 2

Leading cause is guns ; ; Also of note, roughly 10% of the gun related deaths come from the officer's own firearm.

[Delta_9]

I doubt guns will ever be banned in the US and if they are it would create one giant black market (250+ million guns already owned legally). Money that would go to god knows what. A psycho that grabs a gun and kills people will either grab a knife or buy one illegally. Don't punish the majority for a mistake of the minority?

[Beckwin]

This guy:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...hooter0417.jpg

doesn't kill 33 people with a knife.


Just sayin'

[Delta_9]

Right, and being a VT student myself, I agree. But a fat lot of good the "gun free zone" did. He was a fucking psycho so don't try to blame the gun for the idiot behind it. Guns make killing easy I'll conceded that; but I still fail to see how punishing the majority of law-abiding citizens for the mistake of a minority makes any sense.

Are you against hunting and skeet shooting too?

[Beckwin]

I didn't know you were a VT student, so sorry if that example came off as specifically insensitive and offensive. My bad.

But how are people punished by more rigorous gun control? They can't... shoot people? The self/home defense argument looks really weak when you see that guns are still the leading occupational hazard for people equipped and well-trained to use them (in b4 the BG Rambos come in and talk about how an armed man and a dog can easily handle multiple home intruders). I've never said that guns should be banned entirely, but I sure as hell am for way tighter restrictions. Single-shot hunting rifles? Sure, hunting is fine. Pistols? Not so much.

[Obev]

roughly 10% of the gun related deaths come from the officer's own firearm.

The police officers should outlaw the things for their own safety.

[Delta_9]

I wasn't talking about gun control, just a ban. Suppose we are on the same page. I must have been reading between the lines. The way Cho legally bought a gun was bullshit. Anyone that gets referred/checked into a mental health clinic should not be allowed to buy a gun. I would have guessed that was common sense but obviously not. I don't understand the need for assault rifles but hunting rifles (like you said sure), and even pistols in some cases are legit.

[Remyo]

1 more month and I'm buying my own handgun.

[Korietsu]

This is a multifaceted issue, and a rather complicated one that cannot be clearly solved because of varying beliefs and ethical considerations. However, I find that there are some simple rules when using a firearm, and having family that have been in the armed forces, as well as police department. Its rather simple in my opinion, shooting to wound or incap is a always a very very bad thing to do. A gun is designed for one purpose, and that's to kill. Guns have only two safeties, the one on the gun, and the person using it.

In a case where you have a fleeing suspect that poses a potential danger to others in the immediate area, shooting the suspect in the knees is actually life threating depending on where the bullet passes through the knee, just like shooting for the center of mass and/or the head. Really, what you'd be looking for is to shoot the suspect in the feet, or neutralize them period without question.

Almost any force we use to detain suspects can be lethal, everywhere from rubber bullets to a stun baton. So any "placing to shoot for a less than lethal" point is pretty much moot, and shooting to wound can potentially be much more worse than shooting to kill. As such, this brings us to a question of ethics. Is the life of the suspect just as valuable as the life of those nearby?

Until we devise a completely non lethal incap that can't be abused, guns will serve as they're easily controlled. Untill then, individual policies will differ, and I personally, would refrain from using a gun if at all possible, but if those around me or I were in danger, it would be shoot to kill.

[Kaylia]

People who say "why don't you just ban guns" without recognizing the different positive aspects of a gun-owning population both currently and historically and countering those points make me /facepalm.

Your revolutionary original idea is neither.

What positive aspect is there to a gun-owning population?

In Katrina situations you can defend yourself.

And here's an onslaught of quotes for you.

" ... to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
-- George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

"Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of citizens to keep and bear arms ... The right of citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard, against the tyranny which now appears remote in America but which historically has proven to be always possible."
-- Hubert H. Humphrey, Senator, Vice President, 22 October 1959

" ... most attractive to Americans, the possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave, it being the ultimate means by which freedom was to be preserved."
-- James Burgh, 18th century English Libertarian writer, Shalhope, The Ideological Origins of the Second Amendment, p.604

"The militia is the natural defense of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpation of power by rulers. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of the republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally ... enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
-- Joseph Story, Supreme Court Justice, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, p. 3:746-7, 1833

Are you conscious the situation people went through after Katrina are less likely to happen if less people are armed? Are you also conscious that a lot of country have seen decrease in criminality since they banned firearm?

Site is obviously biased against gun, but it still got a few nice stats http://www.guninformation.org/

MYTH: Keeping guns in the home increases personal protection.
TRUTH: Obviously, self defense is not a good argument against gun control since those who own firearms are actually more likely to be victims of homicide. Two studies published in The New England Journal of Medicine revealed that keeping a gun in the home increases the risk of both suicide and homicide. Keeping a gun in the home makes it 2.7 times more likely that someone will be a victim of homicide in your home (in almost all cases the victim is either related to or intimately acquainted with the murderer) (source) and 4.8 times more likely that someone will commit suicide (source). Guns make it more likely that a suicide attempt will be successful than if other means were used such as sleeping pills.

This guy:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...hooter0417.jpg

doesn't kill 33 people with a knife.


Just sayin'

I bet you did not watch any martial art movie, because you wouldn't say something like this!

[archibaldcrane]

I think many people in this thread have forgotten how incredibly fun it is to shoot guns.

Or never knew.

Just remember kids - murder is already illegal. I don't want more of my rights stripped on the assumption that I will commit crime if I'm allowed to maintain my rights.

[Maxxthepenguin]

I think many people in this thread have forgotten how incredibly fun it is to shoot guns.

Or never knew.

Just remember kids - murder is already illegal. I don't want more of my rights stripped on the assumption that I will commit crime if I'm allowed to maintain my rights.

I've shot guns before and yes it's fun but honestly, that's not nearly a good enough reason for me. I have no qualms with learning some self-restraint.