Enspell in Exp math question.

[Lordwafik]

I want to see how much "melee damage" a SCH gets in a normal exp fight. In this question I want to count enspell damage as melee damage. Post update, with fixed enspells (based on the caster and not the recipient), I was putting out pretty consistent 17 dmg enspells on people on low VT mobs (I am level 70), but things that were IT+++ for me they were fluctuating between 4-17. I'm sure when I am 75, things will be more consistent and static 17+ dmg, probably hitting around 20dmg/swing.

The Question
In a party with for example, all dual weilders (incl monks), how much enspell damage will go on if the enspell damage is a static 17 per fist?

I don't know how to work these things out, but I'm curious to see how much damage is lost removing a DD and adding a SCH.

The imaginary party is
-WHM hasting and such
-BRD singing and such
-SCH , enspelling and such
-Monk/nin with destroyers
-Warrior weilding Man/Joy,
-and a thief/nin dual weilding Mandau/Blau.

All wearing their brutal earring too.

And for the examples sake, All melees have haste/march/minuet/enthunder all the time, never wearing off because the players are sooooo good.

This party can obviously get away with removing the SCH and putting in another melee, but I'd like to see if everyone is hitting 17 dmg/fist, is it actually better than having that extra melee? Does all their swing's enspell damage do considerably more than having one more person dealing damage?

I am mathematically illiterate aside from the fact I know that if everyone swings at least twice, It'll be (17 x 6) = 102 dmg extra from everyone's attack round, which can be counted as a dual weilder swinging twice for 50.

Yes this question is being asked so I can mooch my way into LS merit parties without me feeling too bad about filling up room

My thoughts are if it does equate to another melee, it'll be like having another melee that's constantly smacking the monster and never WS'ing, otherwise it'll be like having a very weak melee joining the battle.

[Karbuncle]

I know your looking for math.. but logically speaking it should be.
Considering the Base is 17 Dmg, Now with Man/Joy, Destroyers, Mandau/blau, each round without double attack proc'in you'll get 6 hits. and 6x17 is 102 DMG per round extra.

So even in one round, your doing about 102 extra damage, not including double/triple attack.
So without missing, you should, loggicly, be doing enough damage to equate for another DD, minus His Weaponskills of course.
Now at a maximum round, Say Double attack both on War, Double attack both on MNK, and triple proc both on THF, is a total of 14 hits, 14x17 is 238, so you can get at cap a potential 238 extra damage per attack round.

Hopefully someone will have a better reply, just thought i'd throw in my 3rd grade math/logic.

Edit: Also i dont know about Brutal but i heard it could work seperatly from Double/Triple trait. so actually astounding luck you could get 24 attacks a round (8 Each with Brutal if MNK is subbing WAR) which is 408 points worth of Additional Effect. If im wrong about brutal ignore this last Edit!

[Baha]

-and a thief/nin dual weilding Mandau/Blau.

Butbut my poison.

102/round is lower than what normal melee do though, but it's not like the enspell damage is all that you have. You can support it with some nuking, or maybe have the melee gear more offensively and help cure.

[Septimus]

Wow, if you think about it, that is pretty crazy for a party of dual wielding, low delay people. Mr. Ridill McSwingsalot wouldn't mind that sort of en-spell action.

But now my Red Mage feels even sadder. "Hey Red Mages, here's something that you can do that another job can do better because it is AoE!" Tier II en-spells would cheer me up though...

And letting RDM use Ridill...

[Lordwafik]

But now my Red Mage feels even sadder. "Hey Red Mages, here's something that you can do that another job can do better because it is AoE!" Tier II en-spells would cheer me up though...

I'll make you feel sadder right now :

Phalanx2 capped merits is inferior to my lvl70 SCH's Phalanxga. Was kinda sad when we tested it and Phalanx2 had "No effect on <player>"

[Acturus]

Even a number as "low" as 102 damage per round based on Enspells is significant enough to warrant a SCH in the party. Dealing useful damage while still supporting a party has been the dream of many Summoners for a very long time (not to mention the more DD-minded RDMs).

My question is, would the SCH be fufilling their role as support in this sort of party? With a WHM in the party working a Haste cycle, and given the /NIN-nature of the melee players, what additional support and/or contribution would the SCH add that would justify the removal of a fourth melee?

As stated above, I agree with the nuking position, as well as the ability to dispel for redundancy's sake. But unless you're picking a camp with significant AoE damage or allowing the melee to simply go balls-to-the-wall, I wonder at the total usefulness of combining a WHM and a SCH, especially when you consider factoring in Phalanx-ga and Stoneskin-ga. If nothing else, it's another example of the redundancy that makes the TP-burn work, and that's not a bad thing to catalog.

[Septimus]

But now my Red Mage feels even sadder. "Hey Red Mages, here's something that you can do that another job can do better because it is AoE!" Tier II en-spells would cheer me up though...

I'll make you feel sadder right now :

Phalanx2 capped merits is inferior to my lvl70 SCH's Phalanxga. Was kinda sad when we tested it and Phalanx2 had "No effect on <player>"

That doesn't bother me, I already know that Phalanx II sucks compared to Phalanx.

They need to make Phalanx II into Phalanxga with the same calculation as Phalanx. (Originally it was AoE at 99 MP cost.) Then give Red Mages a real self-only Phalanx II. Fuck helping other people, I only care about me.

[Loren]

The En-element changes make me much angrier at SMN than SCH...

RDM operates on a lovely 3-min Haste/En-element/Phalanx/Spikes cycle during Campaign, and along comes Ramuh with his weaker, shorter En-gimp that overwrites and disables my own spells until I manually cancel. Why dost thou fail me, /blockaid? :[

[Spekkio]

in 95% of situations, this isn't relevant, but one thing to remember is that with enspells, you're not feeding a mob TP. more TP=more stoneskinga out of trolls, so for some corner cases, less tp can be functionally equated to more damage. also handy to remember for salvage chariots, b/c they can get sorta ornery if they're getting a constant supply of TP from the get go. this has been spekk with useless info. we now return you to your regularly scheduled, pertinent commentary.

[Tsama]

Even a number as "low" as 102 damage per round based on Enspells is significant enough to warrant a SCH in the party. Dealing useful damage while still supporting a party has been the dream of many Summoners for a very long time (not to mention the more DD-minded RDMs).

My question is, would the SCH be fufilling their role as support in this sort of party? With a WHM in the party working a Haste cycle, and given the /NIN-nature of the melee players, what additional support and/or contribution would the SCH add that would justify the removal of a fourth melee?

As stated above, I agree with the nuking position, as well as the ability to dispel for redundancy's sake. But unless you're picking a camp with significant AoE damage or allowing the melee to simply go balls-to-the-wall, I wonder at the total usefulness of combining a WHM and a SCH, especially when you consider factoring in Phalanx-ga and Stoneskin-ga. If nothing else, it's another example of the redundancy that makes the TP-burn work, and that's not a bad thing to catalog.

Having a sch at 71 I have been doing this very recently and while I do believe that it does not warrant taking out another dd. I believe that me being in the place of a whm works out well. Right now, I keep up Phalanx, Stoneskin and Enthunder. After I saw this post yesterday I did a lil testing to see if the en- amount was good enough. The problem that I have noticed is that it is entirely too varied. Some hits are 20 some are 2, there is absolutely no consistency. As the OP said, I am waiting for me to get a lil higher so I can see if that effects it much. But, as of present I feel that removing another dd to add a sch is not something that is capable. I was trying to get a merit party together in ls to check this out fully. But, it fell through as soon as I can get the well equiped dd's together to test it out I will post a better reply.

On a side note has anyone tried out using aquaveil with a nin tank or 4 dd subbing nin and seeing if it reduces interupt rate substantially?

[Acturus]

Even a number as "low" as 102 damage per round based on Enspells is significant enough to warrant a SCH in the party. Dealing useful damage while still supporting a party has been the dream of many Summoners for a very long time (not to mention the more DD-minded RDMs).

My question is, would the SCH be fufilling their role as support in this sort of party? With a WHM in the party working a Haste cycle, and given the /NIN-nature of the melee players, what additional support and/or contribution would the SCH add that would justify the removal of a fourth melee?

As stated above, I agree with the nuking position, as well as the ability to dispel for redundancy's sake. But unless you're picking a camp with significant AoE damage or allowing the melee to simply go balls-to-the-wall, I wonder at the total usefulness of combining a WHM and a SCH, especially when you consider factoring in Phalanx-ga and Stoneskin-ga. If nothing else, it's another example of the redundancy that makes the TP-burn work, and that's not a bad thing to catalog.

Having a sch at 71 I have been doing this very recently and while I do believe that it does not warrant taking out another dd. I believe that me being in the place of a whm works out well. Right now, I keep up Phalanx, Stoneskin and Enthunder. After I saw this post yesterday I did a lil testing to see if the en- amount was good enough. The problem that I have noticed is that it is entirely too varied. Some hits are 20 some are 2, there is absolutely no consistency. As the OP said, I am waiting for me to get a lil higher so I can see if that effects it much. But, as of present I feel that removing another dd to add a sch is not something that is capable. I was trying to get a merit party together in ls to check this out fully. But, it fell through as soon as I can get the well equiped dd's together to test it out I will post a better reply.

On a side note has anyone tried out using aquaveil with a nin tank or 4 dd subbing nin and seeing if it reduces interupt rate substantially?

I'll agree that, if resists are an issue, then no, it's not worth removing a DD for a SCH. But, if what Wafik wants to happen happens, and resist rates are floored at 75, then It's probably a good investment of damage.

[Kaeko]

From what I've seen testing this out on various things on SCH/RDM, the resist rate is most heavily determined by the level of the mob (in addition to innate elemental weaknesses).

I tried this on VT Yags while farming for Gnat Pellets and while the damage was good, we did still see some resists. If you try it on 1F-2F salvage though, there is no resist at all and you'll even get a double damage from Bhaflau mobs.

Basically, En-spells really rake it in on lower level mobs you gotta chew through. SCH/RDM is the biggest thing since sliced bread in salvage. Since you always get a SJ, ability and magic cell to start, give those 3 to SCH and everyone in the party now has great DD potential because of enspell, and no one takes damage because of Stoneskin or Phalanx. AoE Regen II also rocks this.

Other than Salvage, I don't know of a truly great use of this. It is a very viable boost on many farming things which are like EP-EM range, but maybe not so great for EXP mobs. You'll definitely see a good number of resists on IT.

Also, dumb question: If I, the SCH/RDM, equip the Apoc Nigh earring that has + enspell damage, does it go to the melee I AoE to? Or just me?

[Callisto]

Also, dumb question: If I, the SCH/RDM, equip the Apoc Nigh earring that has + enspell damage, does it go to the melee I AoE to? Or just me?

Just you, the damage they do is based on your enhancing, not your total enspell damage...however, if they are wearing it, they should get the boost, which is kind of nice as it's not a bad earring already for meleeing w/ the 4 acc IMO.

[zoobernut]

I was wondering as well since the update if the change to en- spell damage made the appoc. earring more worthwhile than before, as long as you are not a pld or mage.

Side note question and a longshot but does that earring help the additional effect damage from weapons. (IE: Flame damage from flame sword)

[Spekkio]

didn't the update say that resists and damage would be based off the caster's skill? if that's the case, the potency of sch in a party for that application may increase as you approach 75 since that may reduce resists. or i may just be stupid.

[Callisto]

didn't the update say that resists and damage would be based off the caster's skill? if that's the case, the potency of sch in a party for that application may increase as you approach 75 since that may reduce resists. or i may just be stupid.

I haven't really tested it on anything major since the update, but previously the mob's innate elemental weakness generally played a greater roll in resists than Enhancing skill did.

I have 300 skill and get 20/hit base w/o any further enhancements, on T- things I would generally go with the day of the week for the extra 2 damage here and there, but on some VT+ I would see some resists unless I stuck to the mob's weakness, and without full merits there's not a whole lot higher you can go than 300. I do however think that Magic Accuracy might count a bit, at least in terms of RDM merits, I notice that my Enblizzard almost never gets resisted w/ my 3 Ice Acc merits compared to my other spells. It can be difficult for a RDM to test Enspell accuracy against higher mobs at times though, since most parties tend to shit their pants if you pull out a sword and hit something in meripo.

On that note, I tried it vs. a NQ Adamantoise the other weak b/c I was bored and didn't see one resist lol. I want to try it against Aspi someday and see if I get the same results, just for the melee RDM lulz.

[zoobernut]

Do mobs damaged with en-spell damage gain tp from it? Or if you hit for 0 main damage and 14 additional damage will they not get tp?

This might be a useful tactic for situations where tp spam is an issue.

[fantasticdan]

Do mobs damaged with en-spell damage gain tp from it?

No, which is why some rdms used ceremonial dagger (1 base dmg) to speed up solo kills on some nms.

[Lordwafik]

didn't the update say that resists and damage would be based off the caster's skill? if that's the case, the potency of sch in a party for that application may increase as you approach 75 since that may reduce resists. or i may just be stupid.

I haven't really tested it on anything major since the update, but previously the mob's innate elemental weakness generally played a greater roll in resists than Enhancing skill did.

Same, when we meritted on yags, enblizzard did far far more than anything else did.

[zoobernut]

Do mobs damaged with en-spell damage gain tp from it?

No, which is why some rdms used ceremonial dagger (1 base dmg) to speed up solo kills on some nms.

Thats what I thought. I wonder how useful it would be on mobs where tp spam is an issue (does that even exist anymore with zerg?) to have everyone equip low dmg weapon and en-spell it down. With a sch to en-spell everyone.