Enspell in Exp math question.

[Spekkio]

didn't the update say that resists and damage would be based off the caster's skill? if that's the case, the potency of sch in a party for that application may increase as you approach 75 since that may reduce resists. or i may just be stupid.

I haven't really tested it on anything major since the update, but previously the mob's innate elemental weakness generally played a greater roll in resists than Enhancing skill did.

Same, when we meritted on yags, enblizzard did far far more than anything else did.

yeah. if you can play off the innate weakness and or day/weather alignment, that should stabilize your resist rates. it may be worth experimenting stacking max enhancing gear (even if more doesn't break a tier) just to see if you can push those resists down.

[Septimus]

Do mobs damaged with en-spell damage gain tp from it?

No, which is why some rdms used ceremonial dagger (1 base dmg) to speed up solo kills on some nms.

Thats what I thought. I wonder how useful it would be on mobs where tp spam is an issue (does that even exist anymore with zerg?) to have everyone equip low dmg weapon and en-spell it down. With a sch to en-spell everyone.

Why do that when instead you could have a bunch of RDMs to en-spell zerg it instead? One day Crimson Burns will be the standard for zergs!

[whoami]

Hmm any math wiz want to see how much this could add a drk kraken/riddel/merc knife zerg if it was 20 dmg per hit? Or hundred fist as well?

[zoobernut]

Do mobs damaged with en-spell damage gain tp from it?

No, which is why some rdms used ceremonial dagger (1 base dmg) to speed up solo kills on some nms.

Thats what I thought. I wonder how useful it would be on mobs where tp spam is an issue (does that even exist anymore with zerg?) to have everyone equip low dmg weapon and en-spell it down. With a sch to en-spell everyone.

Why do that when instead you could have a bunch of RDMs to en-spell zerg it instead? One day Crimson Burns will be the standard for zergs!

Hey if you did that wise gear would finally have a purpose! They would have to zerg in full wise gear for the +acc.

Am I doing it right?

[yrpaine]

only thing i'd keep in mind is that obviously you wouldn't be able to have a dnc in the pty. It wouldn't be so bad if you were helping nuke/cure also. It'd kind of be like having minuet on the 3 melee except it wouldn't affect WS dmg.

[SilverBreeze]

Having a Scholar and a White Mage in that party Wafik, I could also see letting the Monk sub Warrior, which would boost his dps by a considerable amount, with you having 2 people capable to healing his mp sponge action.

Or maybe I'm just nostalgic from good ol' KRT burns with MNK/WAR, /shrug.

[Septimus]

Do mobs damaged with en-spell damage gain tp from it?

No, which is why some rdms used ceremonial dagger (1 base dmg) to speed up solo kills on some nms.

Thats what I thought. I wonder how useful it would be on mobs where tp spam is an issue (does that even exist anymore with zerg?) to have everyone equip low dmg weapon and en-spell it down. With a sch to en-spell everyone.

Why do that when instead you could have a bunch of RDMs to en-spell zerg it instead? One day Crimson Burns will be the standard for zergs!

Hey if you did that wise gear would finally have a purpose! They would have to zerg in full wise gear for the +acc.

Am I doing it right?

Sadly, I imagine that people would use Wise gear for that purpose. (And not use, say, Optical Hat and Scorpion Harness that have nearly twice the accuracy as the full wise set...)

[Tubbers]

Hmm any math wiz want to see how much this could add a drk kraken/riddel/merc knife zerg if it was 20 dmg per hit? Or hundred fist as well?

Doesn't really take a math wiz to hit 5 or 6 buttons on a calculator.

KC: 96 Swings x 20 damage = 1920 damage
Ridill: 48 Swings x 20 damage = 960 damage
MK: 59 Swings x 20 damage = 1180 damage

The thing is, there is no way you're pulling 20 damage en-spell procs on mobs like Kirin, Dynamis-Lord, or Vrtra, BahaV2 MAYBE, but even then I think numbers would be closer to 5-10. If someone knows otherwise though, this could be a nice boost in zerg damage a single SCH could add upwards of 10k if you have 5 Krakens swinging.

[Whatinthe]

Basically, En-spells really rake it in on lower level mobs you gotta chew through. SCH/RDM is the biggest thing since sliced bread in salvage. Since you always get a SJ, ability and magic cell to start, give those 3 to SCH and everyone in the party now has great DD potential because of enspell, and no one takes damage because of Stoneskin or Phalanx. AoE Regen II also rocks this.

Why would you waste 3 cells on the SCH when you could give it to the MNK+RDM instead and pretty much gain the same effect? Or do your monks not know how broken^H^H effective counterstance is on anything short of a Chariot?

[Baha]

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but doesn't Blood Weapon rank as an addition effect itself? Thus not letting it stack with enthunderga?

[Kaeko]

Basically, En-spells really rake it in on lower level mobs you gotta chew through. SCH/RDM is the biggest thing since sliced bread in salvage. Since you always get a SJ, ability and magic cell to start, give those 3 to SCH and everyone in the party now has great DD potential because of enspell, and no one takes damage because of Stoneskin or Phalanx. AoE Regen II also rocks this.

Why would you waste 3 cells on the SCH when you could give it to the MNK+RDM instead and pretty much gain the same effect? Or do your monks not know how broken^H^H effective counterstance is on anything short of a Chariot?

Not everyone team has MNKs, especially when you only have about 4-5 people total. You work with what you have - we have no MNKs, we have a SCH, and it now accomplishes the same thing. Also, going with a setup with all melees and 1 support, I'd much rather have a SCH than a RDM at this point in Salvage, which although awkward, is useful if you go really low on certain 35s.

Just because a certain strategy is popularized (using MNKs is a strategy I guess), doesn't mean it's the end all be all way of doing something; nor does it mean everyone has a MNK to begin with. I'm not sure if you just assumed every Salvage team has to go with MNKs or they just can't do Salvage or what, but this is a very viable strategy now, MNK or no MNK.

There is nothing wrong with following popular strategy like you're advocating, but I find it funny you would dismiss something which has great potential on the assumption everyone has a very specific job set. I guess our group should ditch our job set, and get a MNK MNK THF COR RDM BRD team with 2 Spharais and a Ghorn. Didn't you know Spharai MNKs are broken in Salvage?

[Genosync]

Enspell and Blood Weapon probably don't stack. Check it I guess, but I'm going to go with the side of 'nope'.

And Scholar is amazing in Salvage now (was decent before but not an RDM replacement), mainly due to the addition of Addenum: White and somewhat due to Addenum: Black, and giving Refresh-like traits as a sub job for your WHM.

God, I've love to get back the chance to use that job properly. Oh well. =/

Monks are quite important in Salvage and I wouldn't recommend going to any zone without at minimum one, but people do still do it anyway and are successful (if they're experienced with Salvage and aren't getting fucked on drops gg arrapago). There's a lot of combinations that work out in the end, and it mainly boils down to how skilled the person is behind the computer/tv screen.

[Lordwafik]

In a typical Salvage group such as : MNK MNK THF RDM WHM BRD, but replacing RDM with SCH -

Giving out enspellga I'd argue would do more damage than giving an opacus to a monk.

First floor mobs take double damage it seems, they took 36 dmg from my enspells in bhaf, dunno bout other zones, but potentially doubling everyones damage especially with a group of dual weilders/h2h'ers, more than makes up for the lack of one of them being able to WS for 400-600 here and there.

Added benefit is the SCH giving out a highly potent phalanxga or stoneskinga, which means a very low amount of cures needed. I kinda wish my AU team's RDM had thief levelled so I can go SCH and relieve him

[Whatinthe]

Not everyone team has MNKs, especially when you only have about 4-5 people total. You work with what you have - we have no MNKs, we have a SCH, and it now accomplishes the same thing. Also, going with a setup with all melees and 1 support, I'd much rather have a SCH than a RDM at this point in Salvage, which although awkward, is useful if you go really low on certain 35s.

There is nothing wrong with following popular strategy like you're advocating, but I find it funny you would dismiss something which has great potential on the assumption everyone has a very specific job set. I guess our group should ditch our job set, and get a MNK MNK THF COR RDM BRD team with 2 Spharais and a Ghorn. Didn't you know Spharai MNKs are broken in Salvage?

Well, if you're MNK-less, sux2bu then. Personally, I find COR to be quite worthless in Salvage, I'd rather have MNK MNK THF WHM RDM BRD if I were going 6-person, and we've killed bosses quite easily with this setup. And if I were going with a 3melee-1support, I'd ask for MNK THF Soboro/DNC RDM, which has no problems whatsoever in the healing department, requires as much unlocking as your SCH example, and probably kill stuff as fast without having to waste cells. As a bonus, you can count on quite a few para procs from the SAM's WS (if he's smart enough to know which WS to use), and gets 25% haste from the get-go using Hasso+Haste spell.

But Soboro/DNC is about as niche as SCH/RDM. If you want to shoe-horn one into your group, that's fine, but I'd rather take MNKx2 THF WHM RDM BRD and be able to kill bosses.

[Lordwafik]

Well, if you're MNK-less, sux2bu then. Personally, I find COR to be quite worthless in Salvage, I'd rather have MNK MNK THF WHM RDM BRD if I were going 6-person, and we've killed bosses quite easily with this setup.

Kaeko's done bosses completely MNKless, he's had the dual sam tanker thingy happen on LBC, somewhere in Ashira's blog.

And if I were going with a 3melee-1support, I'd ask for MNK THF Soboro/DNC RDM, which has no problems whatsoever in the healing department, requires as much unlocking as your SCH example, and probably kill stuff as fast without having to waste cells. As a bonus, you can count on quite a few para procs from the SAM's WS (if he's smart enough to know which WS to use), and gets 25% haste from the get-go using Hasso+Haste spell.[quote:2odwepsu]

I'd ask for MNK MNK THF, get SCH WHM BRD, and then let the SCH give phalanxga, enspellga, and optionally, stoneskinga, that way the killspeed is tops, mobs die much faster due to them recieving enspell damage on top of the monks damage (so it acts like you have more DDs than you really do). As for para, I don't recall fighting anything aside bosses/mini NMs that required paralyze, mobs die too fast.

[quote:2odwepsu]But Soboro/DNC is about as niche as SCH/RDM. If you want to shoe-horn one into your group, that's fine, but I'd rather take MNKx2 THF WHM RDM BRD and be able to kill bosses.

[/quote:2odwepsu][/quote:2odwepsu]

Bring SCH (who knows his job) instead of RDM, and the kills and speed in general should be faster if they can get celled up. Sure they take a bunch of cells, but unlike other jobs who need the same amount of cells to be efficient, they aren't useless - they add the benefits of heavy DoT on the bosses and such.

[Kaeko]

Not everyone team has MNKs, especially when you only have about 4-5 people total. You work with what you have - we have no MNKs, we have a SCH, and it now accomplishes the same thing. Also, going with a setup with all melees and 1 support, I'd much rather have a SCH than a RDM at this point in Salvage, which although awkward, is useful if you go really low on certain 35s.

There is nothing wrong with following popular strategy like you're advocating, but I find it funny you would dismiss something which has great potential on the assumption everyone has a very specific job set. I guess our group should ditch our job set, and get a MNK MNK THF COR RDM BRD team with 2 Spharais and a Ghorn. Didn't you know Spharai MNKs are broken in Salvage?

Well, if you're MNK-less, sux2bu then. Personally, I find COR to be quite worthless in Salvage, I'd rather have MNK MNK THF WHM RDM BRD if I were going 6-person, and we've killed bosses quite easily with this setup. And if I were going with a 3melee-1support, I'd ask for MNK THF Soboro/DNC RDM, which has no problems whatsoever in the healing department, requires as much unlocking as your SCH example, and probably kill stuff as fast without having to waste cells. As a bonus, you can count on quite a few para procs from the SAM's WS (if he's smart enough to know which WS to use), and gets 25% haste from the get-go using Hasso+Haste spell.

But Soboro/DNC is about as niche as SCH/RDM. If you want to shoe-horn one into your group, that's fine, but I'd rather take MNKx2 THF WHM RDM BRD and be able to kill bosses.

I think you're kind of proving my original point here...

There are many ways to run the same thing and have the same success. I just felt it unnecessary to go into a discussion about SCH enspells in Salvage and say how dumb it is getamnklol. It's not like our group intentionally runs w/o a MNK to prove a point, it's obvious MNK is the superior DD tank in Salvage - we just don't have one.

I'd just like to add that SCH is pretty lame-easy to play on those 35 rampart runs. If you were a RDM, you'd have to do all your buffs by single cast - x3 Haste, x3 Phalanx x2, minor cures, self refresh... Seems like a pretty busy job, especially since the Phalanx 2 duration isn't that hot even maxed.

On SCH, the lack of haste you can make up in this run at least partially with Enspell (double damage as Wafik said), Phalanx AOEs and is stronger with better duration, and you don't have to cure since you just Skin AOE every 5 minutes. Don't need to cast a spell for refresh, just have to use JA, although it's entirely unneeded since the moves you're doing are all AoE and very MP efficient. On these runs I just come back every 3 minutes to relayer Skin, Phalanx, and Enspell, then go back to watching like the X-files marathon on TNT.

The setup you mentioned works too, but I think it would require a little more work to keep up. A 3 melee + 1 SCH setup can pretty much do chigoes and bees brain-dead and AFK most of the time, which I think shows how efficient and helpful SCH is on 1F. Being able to do things while partially awake is kind of helpful if you're farming something repeatedly.

EDIT:

Not to nitpick here but I'm not sure how in your alternative to our 4 man bee runs, you say yours can accomplish the exact same thing as ours "but not waste cells". How is providing an example that you claim can do the exact same thing as my example not wasting cells but mine is? They, by your own admission, both do the exact same thing.

Also, I'm not going to question your salvage experience, but do you seriously think you need at least a 1 MNK to beat a Salvage boss? Just because the setup you described has been popularized (by Wafik's group actually) does not mean it's the only way to pull it off - it's the easiest way to pull it off, but not the only way. There are lots of groups unable to attain that sort of setup and it really hurts their chances when all they see on these forums when looking for help is sux2bu get a MNK.

We have actually 5 manned bosses using a SAM SAM BLM RDM BRD setup. This is not exactly your 'ideal' LBC setup but it can be done quite easily. If you want to go extreme unorthodox, we did a 4 man BLM BLM MNK RDM LBC win a LONG time ago pre-beginning chest update. We used to manaburn the boss until the 35 rampart pop conditions were discovered since all you could do on a run was kill the boss anyways. I think it helps others to read shit on forums that actually gives them a chance to help their setup and not just feel like they need to be pigeon-holed into 1 specific setup.

I don't advocate "shoe-horning" any job into any setup. You simply work with what you have - which can vary depending who you are and who you run with. SCH's update helps our group tremendously. It's great if you go unaffected by it because you have the setups Aurik/Wafik popularized but in 6 months if shit were to hypothetically hit the fan and your group was left without MNKs but a SCH, you may want to look back at the information here.

[Whatinthe]

Kaeko's done bosses completely MNKless, he's had the dual sam tanker thingy happen on LBC, somewhere in Ashira's blog.

Bring SCH (who knows his job) instead of RDM, and the kills and speed in general should be faster if they can get celled up. Sure they take a bunch of cells, but unlike other jobs who need the same amount of cells to be efficient, they aren't useless - they add the benefits of heavy DoT on the bosses and such.

Heavy DoT? lol. A SCH/RDM is useless without those 3 cells. By the time melees get all geared up (24%-25% haste), having and not having haste is going to make a 24% difference (76/61) in their performance, which, btw, happens to be about as much as you can expect enspellga to contribute to the melee's damage. At that point, your melees are guaranteed to be short one SJ and one Ability.

On floor 1 Baflau, according to a recent parse, even the suckiest of DD (THF who only got weapons) did 50-60dmg/hit average. A monk varies from 60-90dmg/avg, depending on how much he got unlocked. At best you can expect a 30% increase in the damage from using enspellga, which with 256 skill will do base 17, multiplied by 2, meaning 34 damage max. Go higher in the floors, and I'll guarantee that 30% will steadily decrease, while the value of haste will increase. If the whole point of SCH/RDM is to be able to replace the sole backline mage, then it failed miserably, because ultimately, it's a one-trick pony. The only viable place where I could justify enspellga would be the physical-resistant flan, although it remains to be seen whether en-spell causes the spikes to disappear or not. And even then, I don't see it shaving more than a minute even if you did all 4 flans.

[Kaeko]

Kaeko's done bosses completely MNKless, he's had the dual sam tanker thingy happen on LBC, somewhere in Ashira's blog.

Bring SCH (who knows his job) instead of RDM, and the kills and speed in general should be faster if they can get celled up. Sure they take a bunch of cells, but unlike other jobs who need the same amount of cells to be efficient, they aren't useless - they add the benefits of heavy DoT on the bosses and such.

Heavy DoT? lol. A SCH/RDM is useless without those 3 cells. By the time melees get all geared up (24%-25% haste), having and not having haste is going to make a 24% difference (76/61) in their performance, which, btw, happens to be about as much as you can expect enspellga to contribute to the melee's damage. At that point, your melees are guaranteed to be short one SJ and one Ability.

On floor 1 Baflau, according to a recent parse, even the suckiest of DD (THF who only got weapons) did 50-60dmg/hit average. A monk varies from 60-90dmg/avg, depending on how much he got unlocked. At best you can expect a 30% increase in the damage from using enspellga, which with 256 skill will do base 17, multiplied by 2, meaning 34 damage max. Go higher in the floors, and I'll guarantee that 30% will steadily decrease, while the value of haste will increase. If the whole point of SCH/RDM is to be able to replace the sole backline mage, then it failed miserably, because ultimately, it's a one-trick pony. The only viable place where I could justify enspellga would be the physical-resistant flan, although it remains to be seen whether en-spell causes the spikes to disappear or not. And even then, I don't see it shaving more than a minute even if you did all 4 flans.

The sole 1 mage backline is for Bee farming... You would never intentionally gimp your backline for no reason - I mention this because we can do 4 man Bee runs now since you CAN run with a 1 man backline (you need the melees to easily kill the pops fast enough). It doesn't "replace" a RDM because a RDM can do it as well - it is an alternative to RDM, which is nice since not everyone has RDM leveled.

We really weren't discussing the effectiveness of Enspell on the boss or later floors... If you read it was strictly early floors and how it helps speed things up. However, I think it should be pointed out that TP control on the boss is a big deal to a lot of groups, and enspells can potentially add damage without adding TP gain on the boss. Obviously would have to test this. Anyways, if you took a SCH as only mage, you would be bee farming, not doing a boss. If you were doing a boss and happened to have a SCH, you'd have a haster as well. It's not like Enspell and Haste don't stack... you can get both. You are confusing the argument (intentionally?) by trying to say Wafik was implying taking a SCH to a boss without Haste because it can Enspell.

I also like how you say "SCH is useless without those 3 cells" when you're 1) talking about the boss, in which case everyone probably has cells to spare by then, 2) talking about Bhalfau, where I'm 100% sure you would have more than enough cells to spare, especially the 3 we're talking about. Wafik said they are heavy DoT... They are actually Heavy DoT... Helices land half way decently on those. Last time I checked, no other job can pull a 100 damage / 3.3 tick DoT out of their ass (that's about 30 a normal tick). Perhaps you are talking about DoT meaning overall damage over time and not an actual DoT move.

I really don't see how arguing SCH works in Salvage to you really helps at this point. If you won't believe it at least works and has potential (which was the point of the thread), then nothing really can change your mind. It's like you came in here out of the blue and tried to pick a fight.

All your arguments to what Wafik and I are saying are "XXX setup or job can do the same thing! SCH is useless! Waste of cells, give it to your MNK! Don't have one? Get one or you can't do bosses!" when the whole point of the argument is SCH can provide alternative setups for groups - to which you are actually proving our point. It's not like Salvage is impossible without a SCH... it's just easier with one for certain groups without the established ideal setups.

[Whatinthe]

I think you're kind of proving my original point here...

I'd just like to add that SCH is pretty lame-easy to play on those 35 rampart runs. If you were a RDM, you'd have to do all your buffs by single cast - x3 Haste, x3 Phalanx x2, minor cures, self refresh... Seems like a pretty busy job, especially since the Phalanx 2 duration isn't that hot even maxed.

On SCH, the lack of haste you can make up in this run at least partially with Enspell (double damage as Wafik said), Phalanx AOEs and is stronger with better duration, and you don't have to cure since you just Skin AOE every 5 minutes. Don't need to cast a spell for refresh, just have to use JA, although it's entirely unneeded since the moves you're doing are all AoE and very MP efficient. On these runs I just come back every 3 minutes to relayer Skin, Phalanx, and Enspell, then go back to watching like the X-files marathon on TNT.

The setup you mentioned works too, but I think it would require a little more work to keep up. A 3 melee + 1 SCH setup can pretty much do chigoes and bees brain-dead and AFK most of the time, which I think shows how efficient and helpful SCH is on 1F. Being able to do things while partially awake is kind of helpful if you're farming something repeatedly.

Not to nitpick here but I'm not sure how in your alternative to our 4 man bee runs, you say yours can accomplish the exact same thing as ours "but not waste cells". How is providing an example that you claim can do the exact same thing as my example not wasting cells but mine is? They, by your own admission, both do the exact same thing.

Also, I'm not going to question your salvage experience, but do you seriously think you need at least a 1 MNK to beat a Salvage boss? Just because the setup you described has been popularized (by Wafik's group actually) does not mean it's the only way to pull it off - it's the easiest way to pull it off, but not the only way. There are lots of groups unable to attain that sort of setup and it really hurts their chances when all they see on these forums when looking for help is sux2bu get a MNK.

We have actually 5 manned bosses using a SAM SAM BLM RDM BRD setup. This is not exactly your 'ideal' LBC setup but it can be done quite easily. If you want to go extreme unorthodox, we did a 4 man BLM BLM MNK RDM LBC win a LONG time ago pre-beginning chest update. We used to manaburn the boss until the 35 rampart pop conditions were discovered since all you could do on a run was kill the boss anyways. I think it helps others to read shit on forums that actually gives them a chance to help their setup and not just feel like they need to be pigeon-holed into 1 specific setup.

I don't advocate "shoe-horning" any job into any setup. You simply work with what you have - which can vary depending who you are and who you run with. SCH's update helps our group tremendously. It's great if you go unaffected by it because you have the setups Aurik/Wafik popularized but in 6 months if shit were to hypothetically hit the fan and your group was left without MNKs but a SCH, you may want to look back at the information here.

Actually, the idea of a monk tank was done waaay before Wafik did it. The idea got floated around (IIRC) on the JP boards starting around Dec of 06, I remember trying to convince (in vain, might I add) my leader in my ex-group to try it while she insisted on using PLD tanks and your "BLM-nuke-kite" method. I remember reading your 45-min BLM DoT-weardown around that time, so I'm pretty sure Wafik (no offense) did not come up with the idea. Took me another 2-3 month to even convince the leader to actually equip me instead of leaving me naked, and after that I proved that MNKs could tank better than PLDs on a few runs which was around March or so.

As for being without monks, I don't think so. Out of the 10 or so members that we have, 6 has Monk leveled, and most don't even want to come Monk for whatever reason. Leader doesn't go monk cuz she pulls, and the other Monks likes to come Ridill WAR. Not everyone comes every run, so we'll end up with MNK MNK WAR RDM BRD WHM THF or something similar. Leader seems to want at least one WAR cuz of Voke, I personally think WAR without shadows makes for a horrid tank, but still the cell order is usually WAR>MNK.

It's nice you are able to afk-farm, personally, I find that to be a characteristic of a bad player. It's quite apparent when someone isn't "paying attention" and although it might get the job done, I'll find bits and pieces of people slacking off in the parser. And it's always nice to know how your "alternative way of doing stuff" includes stuff like a Mandau THF while conveniently forgetting to mention that tidbit. Kinda like your DoT-kite method involved Gaiters BLM, which you did actually did mention, but expecting Joe Player to replicate your "results" is kind of hard, dontchathink?

If you were doing a boss and happened to have a SCH, you'd have a haster as well. It's not like Enspell and Haste don't stack... you can get both. You are confusing the argument (intentionally?) by trying to say Wafik was implying taking a SCH to a boss without Haste because it can Enspell.

By your own admission, SCH/RDM needs 3 cells at the beginning to make it work. So unless you get lucky and get 2xMagic and 2xJA (I don't think that can happen), you have to pick and choose whether you want haste and voke/counterstance/WS or you want enspellga. Some zones, you do not get additional magic or subjob until much higher in the floors. When I get the first JA and start tanking, between Chakra and Counterstance, I really don't need that much curing. I did a quick calculation and figured out that I'll take roughly the same damage that you would have by using Phalanxga overall on the first floor.

Just like no one takes PLD tanks to Salvage anymore, I just see SCH in the same light. Sure, there are situations where you could make PLD work, just like you found a niche to make SCH work. I just don't see a situation where I would be willingly swap out a RDM (with Refresh/Haste/Paralyna for bosses/Slow2/Para) just to bring in a SCH. I'm pretty sure I could easily go do 6-man with NIN NIN etc., it's just Monks have some nice abilities under their belt, and on their belt as well.

As for enspells on bosses, lol. If your BLM (with their A+ elemental) needs +skill to make nukes not resist, there's no way a 256-base En- is going to land unresisted for more than 30% of the time. I'd wager that you'd be lucky to see maybe 5-6dmg/average on en-spells on bosses assuming 17dmg base.

[Kaeko]

Actually, the idea of a monk tank was done waaay before Wafik did it. The idea got floated around (IIRC) on the JP boards starting around Dec of 06, I remember trying to convince (in vain, might I add) my leader in my ex-group to try it while she insisted on using PLD tanks and your "BLM-nuke-kite" method. I remember reading your 45-min BLM DoT-weardown around that time, so I'm pretty sure Wafik (no offense) did not come up with the idea. Took me another 2-3 month to even convince the leader to actually equip me instead of leaving me naked, and after that I proved that MNKs could tank better than PLDs on a few runs which was around March or so.

Key word is popularize, not invent. To popularize, you have to show it works and clearly define how to go about doing this. It would be pretty much impossible to tell who actually came up with the idea first since it's not like inventing Calculus.

It's nice you are able to afk-farm, personally, I find that to be a characteristic of a bad player. It's quite apparent when someone isn't "paying attention" and although it might get the job done, I'll find bits and pieces of people slacking off in the parser. And it's always nice to know how your "alternative way of doing stuff" includes stuff like a Mandau THF while conveniently forgetting to mention that tidbit. Kinda like your DoT-kite method involved Gaiters BLM, which you did actually did mention, but expecting Joe Player to replicate your "results" is kind of hard, dontchathink?

Man, I dunno I've said this many times in the last couple posts... You work with what you have... We got a Mandau THF, and we got lots of Gaiters too. I remember very clearly when writing that kite method up that it involved what I called "Gaiter Abuse" and that the biggest problem to the strategy was that it is reliant on an item, where Wafik/Aurik's guide was easier to follow. I guess I'll say it again and bold it for you - you work with what you have! I'm not going to make an apologies because we have some rare items. They key is to know what your group's strengths and weaknesses are - not having a MNK would be a weakness. You got MNKs - totally awesome. No need to bash another group's strategy not involving MNKs which works as well.

I'm going to let the bad player implication slide because I have a hard time believing anyone would actually single me out as a bad player or a slacker. I would say though that as someone that does strategy, you don't want to force your members to focus 100% all the time. We're humans, not robots, and when you're doing bees for the 100th time at 2AM, you'll take the brain-dead strategy over the harder to reproduce one. If you are running parsers on your team on the 100th bee farming run then props to you for staying 100% focused. I highly doubt the average player would be able to do that.

By your own admission, SCH/RDM needs 3 cells at the beginning to make it work. So unless you get lucky and get 2xMagic and 2xJA (I don't think that can happen), you have to pick and choose whether you want haste and voke/counterstance/WS or you want enspellga. Some zones, you do not get additional magic or subjob until much higher in the floors. When I get the first JA and start tanking, between Chakra and Counterstance, I really don't need that much curing. I did a quick calculation and figured out that I'll take roughly the same damage that you would have by using Phalanxga overall on the first floor.

Again, this goes back to setup... We don't have a MNK! If you do not have a MNK, which everything I say in this thread is implying you don't as I don't work with one, you'll find that giving those 3 cells to the SCH first is really effective as a defensive tool and as an offensive tool. You keep talking about how in your setup (with MNKs!), it's better to give shit to MNK first and not SCH. I don't even agree or disagree! Again, no MNK, can't comment. All I say is it works for us quite well and explain why. The vast majority, if not everyone other than yourself, seem to see the merit in the comments here.

Nowhere in this thread did I ever say SCH was better than XXX - if I did, it certainly would not be MNK. Forget how good a MNK is in Salvage, it would be illogical to compare SCH, a backline job, to a MNK, a frontline job. The two do not share the same role and hence cannot be compared.

Just like no one takes PLD tanks to Salvage anymore, I just see SCH in the same light. Sure, there are situations where you could make PLD work, just like you found a niche to make SCH work. I just don't see a situation where I would be willingly swap out a RDM (with Refresh/Haste/Paralyna for bosses/Slow2/Para) just to bring in a SCH. I'm pretty sure I could easily go do 6-man with NIN NIN etc., it's just Monks have some nice abilities under their belt, and on their belt as well.

One of PLD's main issue with Salvage is that there are only 2 clearly defined types of roles - DD/Tanks, and Backline Support. Because the DD doubles as the tank, and PLD cannot do said DD effectively, it suffers. It's the same reasoning PLDs aren't wanted in merit parties - DDs are the tanks, if you can call tanking a merit mob for 30 seconds really tanking. SCH does play a defined role as a backline job as it provides basically everything other than Haste, which only is required by ONE of the backline jobs, not all.

As for enspells on bosses, lol. If your BLM (with their A+ elemental) needs +skill to make nukes not resist, there's no way a 256-base En- is going to land unresisted for more than 30% of the time. I'd wager that you'd be lucky to see maybe 5-6dmg/average on en-spells on bosses assuming 17dmg base.

I would agree here since the resistance of enspell is based on LVL difference. I don't think Wafik actually mentioned using Enspell on a boss though, he just said it was heavy DoT, which it is since Helix spells are the heaviest DoT in the game.

Just so we don't keep going in circles, these are my main arguments...

1) You are saying SCH is useless based on your setup, which includes among other things, MNKs. My argument on this is that SCH's effectiveness can vary depending on your job and member situation. By dismissing SCH based solely on your setup, and in the case of many of your arguments, your ability field MNKs (which is not something a good number of groups can do), you are implying "SCH is useless because there is MNK". I would say this is a bad argument because not everyone can field a MNK(s).

2) You work with what you have! Can you at least see the flaw in trying to respond with using a job or set of jobs not all groups can field? A lot of groups ask me how we do Salvage since they saw that we did it w/o MNK and they were in the same boat. A Salvage group without a MNK is more common than you think. Sure, my group happens to have some nice perks most don't, but you don't see me going around telling people to "useGaiterBLMlol". I wrote something up using it, but then I clearly noted that a weakness of the strategy was it involved something not everyone had.

This thread advocates an alternative which groups can find useful if their setup needs tweaking. Not all setups need it. My setup does because I only have BLM and SCH. I'm sure even you would agree SCH > BLM in low manning Salvage 4-5 people. SCH is useful though as even good setups like Wafik's are toying with it and finding it useful.

3) Most Salvage boss setups involving 6 are something on the order of 2 melee, 1 thf, 1 brd, 2 backline. You can go lower, but I think we can agree on this one for a 6 man. In this backline, one needs haste. The other doesn't really need it. SCH lacks haste, but it's not difficult to field the other backline with a WHM or RDM for haste. In the PLD example, there is no role in this typical Salvage setup where PLD can be played. It is not a backliner, and it is not a true melee. PLD was outed because it could not play a specific role on the team. SCH can play the roll of a backliner for bosses as long as someone else can haste on the backline. Because of its ability to fill one of the roles mentioned, it definitely would not be outed like PLD in the long run.

Also, just to edit in a personal note. I really don't see how a vet in this game can so easily and outright dismiss the option of AoE phalanx, AoE 350 HP stoneskin, and 1 job having the ability to simultaniously be able to use all -na spell, Dispel, cure, and basically provide every buff in the game other than Haste in AoE fashion. At this point, I honestly feel you're just trying to pick a fight because I know a vet in this game would at least see the merits in this.