Do I dare ask about the Holocaust?

[Demosthenes11]

Damn right I had lousy history departments, it's a public school district in Northern California. Armenian genocide? I never even heard the word Armenia until System of a Down said it like 8 years ago.

school shouldn't be your only source of education. Read books. You failed yourself more than anything, not public school

[guartz]

I think that everyone here can agree that millions of Jewish people were killed or died at the hands of Nazi Germany. And that is not something that can be debated.

So true. But also british, french, american, russian, etc people died by millions too in a war that was completley avoidable. Like when the politician Marshal Foch said, at Versailles Treaty, “This is not peace; it is an armistice for 20 years.” Now we know, he was dead on.

So the real lesson here is asking why these things come about... why do these things come about?

[Brill Weave]

Holocaust Survivor doesn't mean they were in Auschwitz or anywhere near a death camp, or if they even seen a nazi soldier. Let's keep that in mind there, chief.

No, but take Anne Frank for example. She and her family hid for how long in an attic above a shop? I'm sure there were tons of people who had done the same and were never caught and ended up living. Simply being coined a "survivor" has nothing to do with Auschwitz or any other concentration camp and to only associate it with that is foolish at best.

By your words if I was Jewish and I was able to hide in an attic in Berlin for the entire war, I wasn't a survivor. Because I didn't go to a concentration camp, or see an SS soldier, I wasn't a survivor. But I managed to live through an entire war in a completely hostile county knowing if I went outside, I would be killed. But that's not surviving? I think you may need to re-examine your thoughts on that post.

[Brill Weave]

I'm not sure I understand when you say that the war could have been avoided. How so?

[archibaldcrane]

hay guys I can google stuff and then post it as fact too

http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps ... sEngl.html

It's surprising that this site, which seems to pride itself on having as accurate a count as possible (nearly 6 million) includes this paragraph and doesn't defend the #s presented, only the idea that "even if true, this doesn't diminish the horror".

Just a last comment. These last years some historians and or revisionists have changed the estimated number of Jews killed during the Holocaust from 6 million to 2.5 million. This new estimation is based on the fact that Soviet historians may have inflated the number of Soviet victims for political reasons. Some revisionists or deniers are using this new estimated number of victims in order to minimize the Holocaust or even to deny its reality. Even with different estimates and keep in mnd, they are estimates, the Holocaust took the lives of millions of innocent people. Even if this new estimation is accurate, which it may not be, the question still must be asked; is the extermination of 2.5 million innocent victims more justifiable than the extermination of 6 million people? And even if there were "only"100,000 or 10,000 or 1,000 victims, this number does not justify the horror of the Nazi's extermination policy. The deniers are just trying to make banal the murder of millions of innocent people by German government policy.

The question of "did the holocaust happen" is a completely ridiculous one - there is such overwhelming evidence, survivor testimonies, Nazi leader admissions, etc. etc. that it's a complete no-brainer.

However, the question of "how many people, and of what 'groups', died because of the holocaust, and how did they die" is a very valid and interesting one. It's just frustrating that there are so many people resistant to looking back into the "official numbers" for political reasons, when the "official numbers" themselves may have been skewed, perhaps significantly, for political reasons.

[Charla]

Damn right I had lousy history departments, it's a public school district in Northern California. Armenian genocide? I never even heard the word Armenia until System of a Down said it like 8 years ago.

school shouldn't be your only source of education. Read books. You failed yourself more than anything, not public school

Who said I didn't teach myself afterwards? That's what wikipedia is for after all.

[Correction]

Nazi Germany Holocaust survivors.

Holocaust Survivor doesn't mean they were in Auschwitz or anywhere near a death camp, or if they even seen a nazi soldier. Let's keep that in mind there, chief.

What's your point? The guy who came to my class survived the extermination of Jews during WWII. He was actually from Poland. The odds were against his survival and he addressed as much to us.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

I'm not sure I understand when you say that the war could have been avoided. How so?

When Germany invaded the Rhineland, France alone could have stopped them. Hitler gave orders to his generals to the effect of "if France so much as hints at the fact they are moving in, retreat."

Churchill was also preaching about the dangers of the Nazi's as early as '32 on the radio, I think. It was a government run station and they shut him down though.

Seems to draw an interesting parallel to today.

[Charla]

Delaying an invasion by a few months != avoiding a war.

[Mizango]

[img]http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/3359/mohammedbombkk5.jpg[img]




mohammed approves of this message against the infidels.

LOL


Goddammit, Firas and Guartz in the same fucking thread. There is no hope left for this thread....

[Norelco]

I always thought it was common knowledge that the records weren't exactly kosher.

No play-on words intended, amirite?

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Delaying an invasion by a few months != avoiding a war.

Um, they were breaking the treaty when they did that. I'm sure France would have been justified in removing the Nazi's from power.

[Shuemue]

guartz, Aushwitz was just one camp, and seriously, you'd expect a nazi war criminal to tell the truth?

As for a completely avoidable war, this should be good, enlighten us.

[Brill Weave]

Well take the Russians for example. During the war they had originally signed a non-aggression pact with the Germans and at the beginning of WWII they actually attacked Finland. Most people don't even know that occured.

But the Battles for Leningrad and Stalingrad supposedly had over 1 million casualties each(both sides combined.) But the Russians never gave an accurate number and the allied nations could never find an estimate because Russian had such tight control on all vacets of the media at that time.

So when it comes to the Russians, who knows how many casualties they had over the course of the entire war.

[Alleya]

I always thought it was common knowledge that the records weren't exactly kosher.

Jesus CHRIST that is funny.

[Shuemue]

I'm not sure I understand when you say that the war could have been avoided. How so?

When Germany invaded the Rhineland, France alone could have stopped them. Hitler gave orders to his generals to the effect of "if France so much as hints at the fact they are moving in, retreat."

Churchill was also preaching about the dangers of the Nazi's as early as '32 on the radio, I think. It was a government run station and they shut him down though.

Seems to draw an interesting parallel to today.

Did you just liken George W. Bush to Winston Churchill?

[Brill Weave]

Ah thank you for clairifying Swampdonkey.

No play-on words intended, amirite?

Was wondering how long it was going to take for someone to notice

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Did you just liken George W. Bush to Winston Churchill?

Hell no lol.

[Shuemue]

Did you just liken George W. Bush to Winston Churchill?

Hell no lol.

Thank God, I was booking a flight. What did you mean when you mentioned a parallel with today?

[Charla]

Delaying an invasion by a few months != avoiding a war.

Um, they were breaking the treaty when they did that. I'm sure France would have been justified in removing the Nazi's from power.

What? You mean France could have retaliated, defeated Germany, and overthrown its government in response to the invasion (even though they were eventually occuped)? Or would the German people have revolted against the Nazis if they hadn't generated continuous victories? Nothing could have realistically "removed the Nazis from power" at that point.

edit: ok, I read about it found out the Rhineland thing was in 36, well before the invasion of Poland. Apparently, Swamp is saying that France (and presumably Britain) could have retaliated against Nazi Germany before it had amassed significant military power. Now, technically this would have "prevented the war" in that it would have changed history such that no war would have been started as a result of the later invasions of Poland, Belgium, etc. But that's mostly because it would probably have started a (presumably smaller) war several years sooner. As such, I still hold that for France, Britain or anyone else to have "avoided a war" was impossible, whether in 1936 or 1939.