Hmm, DRG Gear Question

[ringthree]

Ringthree, I was gonna quote what you said and support it, then you sorta went against /mage. You're absolutely right, give drg a melee sub-job and it will do its fair share of damage.

However /mage still has its benefits and is a crucial component of our job (and in endgame). In particular, I'd like to give as an example Drg/whm for Nyzul Isle as a particularly potent and useful job for that event.

I don't doubt its situational uses for things like Salvage or Nyzul where low numbers are required or beneficial. But in general, when XPing or in open world situations /mage falls far behind /melee in utility.

[shirak]

Yeah Ringthree, I editted out my previous post because I think in light of your last posts we see eye-to-eye.

[Jaybar]

But put a DRG on Tiamat or Khimaira...

To elaborate without bringing in the "This job and that job" comparison, this is entirely true. The only reason we WOULD do poorly against these HNMs is 1)Wyrms are naturally heavily defensive and 2)Khimaira hates Melees anyway.

But if you've ever TP-burned Vrtra, you can easily be top-notch with everyone around you with a melee sub job. The only reason this is possible is thanks to bards. Once your buffs are gone, you'll start hitting like a REAL melee class would on any wyrm (a lot of the times, for 0). And you are NOT the only one suffering from this. Every other melee will have this problem. This is why DRG appears to be sub-par on Tiamat/Jormungand/Fafnir-Nidhogg. Only one of those HNMs should a DRG be TP'ing on, and that's the latter. Everything else should be dumping TP into if not a Mana-burn.

So, let's not compare ourselves to HNMs, because all melee classes suffer from some sort of hindrance without support. Now, I know people will say "But Samurai blah blah Q_Q", but their individual numbers come from the 1-hit WS's, just like anyone else. With proper gear and merits, they WILL be the best DD on any of the HNMs. Put up a poorly merited SAM with the average gear, and he'll be no better than the well-merited and equipped DRG. What I'm trying to say is, the job is only as good as how much work you put into it.

Yes, I would pick a Samurai over a Dragoon on an HNM, but mostly for SC purposes (save for mana-burn Wyrms and a couple other HNMs). If someone has Samurai as a second job with mediocre gear and merits, I would pick their main job (unless it's a mage where you don't need one, and assuming their Main is far better equipped and merited).

I love to bring my Dragoon to the Aery, to Cerberus, to Khimaira (sometimes ;x), to King Vinegaroon, and other HNMs (Except Hydra). I don't compare myself to other melee when I do, because it's not a competition. I like to be able to say "I helped kill this" and not "I'm better than you". I don't care if people say "Lol, you missed a WS" or "Haha, 3 digit WS's wut?" because it's not an issue on HNMs. If you think it is, then you need to play other jobs.




Wait what are we talking about?

[Kkel]

How about what you do in an NM situation? Do you bring your /mage to a fight where your LS needs DD's? /Mage was fine when DRG weren't on the top-tier of DD's, but they are now, and its time to adapt.

No, i don't go to LS related events on DRG at all anymore unless i'm specifically asked to (which has happened once in 4 years, for Angon). The few times i did go to larger events on DRG (long before any 2H patch), it was usually a split between DRG/WHM or DRG/THF.

Again, i never said DRG/Melee was gimp. Not once. Just that it doesn't bring anything really outstanding to most endgame situations, like a lot of other DD jobs. If you think it does, that's great for you. Keep playing it that way. I have better options available to me. All my jobs are fully merited and very well equipped.

As a side note, if i was a "DRG Fanboy" i'd be here touting all DRG over all things. If i was "lolDRG" i wouldn't have leveled the job in the first place and/or play it currently. Believe it or not, it is actually possible to enjoy playing a job without being either extreme.

[shirak]

And you are still wrong Kkel.

Personally i feel that DRG/WHM is close to the the pinnacle of the jobs abilities and that subbing melee jobs just pigeon-holes DRG, especially poor utilization of the Wyvern...

-ringthree addressed this

the job still can't really keep up with the higher tier DDs in this game.

-I addressed this

Ultimately, it's hard to justify DRG at all for most "normal" events, short of "DRG = Angon", depending on how you define "normal".

-pre2007 truth, post 2007 falsehood

Unless i missed some amazing update note that suddenly allows DRG to hit the 100% accuracy mark, they're no more accurate than any other DD worth their salt.

- ringthree addressed this (and shows that maybe you're not seeing things clearly or have all the facts

we're just saying that DRG is specifically not top tier.

I don't need to fire up a parser to know that my DRG will never, NEVER, be able to throw down on real endgame mobs like my SAM can, especially now that SAM has Sekkanoki.

-except when parsers do

Just that it doesn't bring anything really outstanding to most endgame situations, like a lot of other DD jobs.

-Angon? Hate-free damage... comeon


Also:

I've put DRG/WHM through pretty every possible endgame pace and short of a decently accessible Refresh piece, i love it's balance.

and this:

No, i don't go to LS related events on DRG at all anymore unless i'm specifically asked to (which has happened once in 4 years, for Angon). The few times i did go to larger events on DRG (long before any 2H patch),

dont jive

[Kkel]

And you are still wrong Khel.

Wrong about what? My last post was primarily facts, not opinions. And if you're going to just troll, at least spell my name right. Khel is a Mithra RDM.

Edit: Look, i can go back and edit my posts after the fact too. Doesn't make it any more relevant for the time.

[shirak]

Yep, my bad, spelled your name wrong.

[RKenshin]

Dominates in accuracy? What, how does that mean anything? Unless i missed some amazing update note that suddenly allows DRG to hit the 100% accuracy mark, they're no more accurate than any other DD worth their salt. And parsing 5% higher accuracy won't mean a thing without a consistent, powerful, punch-through WS.

Why wouldn't accuracy mean anything? lol... Any amounts of attack and haste are diminished greatly if they're not connecting 15-25% of the time.

Any normal melee job outside of a relic user can not hit 90-95% accuracy consistently with meat, and without Madrigal. DRG does dominate in accuracy as far as this goes (aside from RNG of course)... It is the only job that can hit 90-95% accuracy on most mobs, all the while still maintaining a 20-22% haste build with a good amount of attack, DA, possibly TA, and a 6-hit build (?, don't remember off my head and no time to figure out atm). And that isn't something you could ever really consider to be any level of worthless.

Penta isn't exactly a weak WS either.

[Kkel]

Dominates in accuracy? What, how does that mean anything? Unless i missed some amazing update note that suddenly allows DRG to hit the 100% accuracy mark, they're no more accurate than any other DD worth their salt. And parsing 5% higher accuracy won't mean a thing without a consistent, powerful, punch-through WS.

Why wouldn't accuracy mean anything? lol... Any amounts of attack and haste are diminished greatly if they're not connecting 15-25% of the time.

Any normal melee job outside of a relic user can not hit 90-95% accuracy consistently with meat, and without Madrigal. DRG does dominate in accuracy as far as this goes (aside from RNG of course)... It is the only job that can hit 90-95% accuracy on most mobs, all the while still maintaining a 20-22% haste build with a good amount of attack, DA, possibly TA, and a 6-hit build (?, don't remember off my head and no time to figure out atm). And that isn't something you could ever really consider to be any level of worthless.

Penta isn't exactly a weak WS either.

What i meant was that if you're taking your job to an HNM fight to help out your LS, you better be hitting the upper end of the accuracy cap. I agree, all the haste in the world doesn't mean anything if it just helps you miss faster, same with attack. But really, is there any job (played at an endgame level) without a natural ACC trait that is really hard up to hit these mobs? Are SAM, DRK, WAR, etc really crying out for a trait because ACC at an endgame level is such a huge issue?

I never said Penta was weak per se, but given the choice, would you rather drop Penta Thrust on Khimaira or Gekko/Kasha? Now, if you're talking about a Colibri or a Puk or something, it's a whole different story.

If DRG is that amazing vs. HNM though, how come LS aren't clamoring to sign up DRGs? Why is SAM still the standard when it comes to pretty much everything that doesn't involve Ridill/Kraken/etc DRKs or pure Manaburn?

[shirak]

No one is saying Drg is "that amazing" vs HNM, just that they are worth the DD slot.

Also, you should know that a combination of melees usually gives better synergy.

[ringthree]

How about what you do in an NM situation? Do you bring your /mage to a fight where your LS needs DD's? /Mage was fine when DRG weren't on the top-tier of DD's, but they are now, and its time to adapt.

No, i don't go to LS related events on DRG at all anymore unless i'm specifically asked to (which has happened once in 4 years, for Angon). The few times i did go to larger events on DRG (long before any 2H patch), it was usually a split between DRG/WHM or DRG/THF.

Again, i never said DRG/Melee was gimp. Not once. Just that it doesn't bring anything really outstanding to most endgame situations, like a lot of other DD jobs. If you think it does, that's great for you. Keep playing it that way. I have better options available to me. All my jobs are fully merited and very well equipped.

As a side note, if i was a "DRG Fanboy" i'd be here touting all DRG over all things. If i was "lolDRG" i wouldn't have leveled the job in the first place and/or play it currently. Believe it or not, it is actually possible to enjoy playing a job without being either extreme.

You also are able to play it without understanding the current abilities of the job too, apparently. Sounds like you play DRG even less than I do, and yet you are defending a position that is at least 9 months old in the understanding of it's capability. I am neither a fan boy or a lolDRG person, so I don't know who you are talking about. I am just saying that with the changes that were made to the job, your belief that the job can't be just as capable as any other DD on HNM and thus have to sub /THF or /WHM just exposes your ignorance on the subject.

[Kkel]

No one is saying Drg is "that amazing" vs HNM, just that they are worth the DD slot.

Also, you should know that a combination of melees usually gives better synergy.

And what i'm saying is that given my other job options, DRG is not worth showing up on unless it's a very specific circumstance and DRG is specifically needed.

I am just saying that with the changes that were made to the job, your belief that the job can't be just as capable as any other DD on HNM and thus have to sub /THF or /WHM just exposes your ignorance on the subject.

Actually, that's not what i said at all. In fact i said the opposite, that DRG is pretty much just like every other current, capable, mid-range DD.

I only mentioned /THF and /WHM at LS events because i was discussing the period of time long before changes were made to the job, as i stated.

The few times i did go to larger events on DRG (long before any 2H patch), it was usually a split between DRG/WHM or DRG/THF.

[ringthree]

Dominates in accuracy? What, how does that mean anything? Unless i missed some amazing update note that suddenly allows DRG to hit the 100% accuracy mark, they're no more accurate than any other DD worth their salt. And parsing 5% higher accuracy won't mean a thing without a consistent, powerful, punch-through WS.

Why wouldn't accuracy mean anything? lol... Any amounts of attack and haste are diminished greatly if they're not connecting 15-25% of the time.

Any normal melee job outside of a relic user can not hit 90-95% accuracy consistently with meat, and without Madrigal. DRG does dominate in accuracy as far as this goes (aside from RNG of course)... It is the only job that can hit 90-95% accuracy on most mobs, all the while still maintaining a 20-22% haste build with a good amount of attack, DA, possibly TA, and a 6-hit build (?, don't remember off my head and no time to figure out atm). And that isn't something you could ever really consider to be any level of worthless.

Penta isn't exactly a weak WS either.

What i meant was that if you're taking your job to an HNM fight to help out your LS, you better be hitting the upper end of the accuracy cap. I agree, all the haste in the world doesn't mean anything if it just helps you miss faster, same with attack. But really, is there any job (played at an endgame level) without a natural ACC trait that is really hard up to hit these mobs? Are SAM, DRK, WAR, etc really crying out for a trait because ACC at an endgame level is such a huge issue?

I never said Penta was weak per se, but given the choice, would you rather drop Penta Thrust on Khimaira or Gekko/Kasha? Now, if you're talking about a Colibri or a Puk or something, it's a whole different story.

If DRG is that amazing vs. HNM though, how come LS aren't clamoring to sign up DRGs? Why is SAM still the standard when it comes to pretty much everything that doesn't involve Ridill/Kraken/etc DRKs or pure Manaburn?

You have moved back like 10-15 posts at this point. I already went over why having the highest accuracy in the game is something that DRG have over almost every other job in the game and this becomes MORE relevant on HNM, not less.

Seriously, have you played DRG as a DD in like a year? The reason that people aren't clamoring to sign up DRGs is because this is 2008 and jobs are less and less relevant to leaders in who they let into LS's. Good leaders care far more about consistency and capability as a player. Hell, if my LS "needed" a job I could level it in like 2-3 weeks, and have decent to top-notch gear for it.

The real problem is that most people are like you, they don't accept change if it does slap them in the face (ZOMG Tachi: Gekko does so much damage now) or until Ruke does it first to prove that it is good. The fact that you are still making arguments about DRG accuracy shows that you really have no idea about the changes that have been made.

I am a job atheist and pragmatist, I play whatever job is needed or best for the situation. I am currently rebuilding my DRG after some neglect because of their current capabilities.

And Ruke, DRG need Askar Body to get a true 6-hit set up (without unreasonable sacrifices), but honestly since they will be using Penta-thrust and have Jumps (Barone TP bonus) the need for a strict 6-hit build is greatly diminished.

[Kkel]

I really have no idea what you're going on about anymore. It's like you're just typing into the box and quoting without actually reading anything.

You go right ahead and rebuild your DRG. Honestly, i really hope you enjoy playing it /Melee as i do /Mage. I really hope your LS does find situations where they say "Wow, we really need a DRG out here." Again, is a DRG/Melee going to strictly outparse a DRG/Mage, yeah, of course, i never said otherwise. What i did say was that's not what i use DRG for. You seem incapable of understanding that, so i guess we'll just have to leave that where it is.

[Jaybar]

Wait, are you comparing a job you have never if rarely been on since the 2handed buff as a real DD to your samurai and drawing conclusions from that?

[Kkel]

No, i'm on DRG all the fkn time, especially in Campaign because it's pretty much indestructible and can still drop great numbers.

All i said at the start was that i enjoy DRG/WHM and focused a lot of my attention on it because it suits how i play DRG, which happens to be not at HNMs/"Endgame" events. I use SAM and occasionally DRK for that. For some reason this has equated to bashing DRG/Melee in every possible capacity. Gimmie a break. I don't play DRG/Melee that often, so what? I doesn't mean i don't understand the job, just that it doesn't suit my needs.

What do you want me to say? I love DRG/WHM for how i play the game on DRG, sorry if you don't. I also love WAR for it's utility. I also specifically built my SAM to fight HNM, so that's what i get rostered on/show up as. BLU offered me something different. I also only leveled DRK because between my WAR and my DRG i had a huge chunk of awesome gear for it.

Heaven forbid i don't use DRG for what you use it for, i was under the impression that it's a sign of strength for the job when it can be played effectively multiple ways.

[Jaybar]

Well you were saying how /Melee is just a fill-in job if anything in Endgame. What I was getting at was that you apparently never even tried it before? I respect your views on /Mage, but I don't think you should toss a subjob away because it doesn't appear to work for you in endgame. This argument wasn't about if your DRG was better than your SAM, but if they are better than they used to be on Endgame content (which has been said quite a lot so far).

[Akanei]

I wouldn't go as far to say such and such job is wanted over another due to damage; most of that has normalized for one reason or another. The majority of SAM heavy shells is just mostly because wyrm/king/toau/jol = overwhelm/hagun, so you can ws for respectable numbers, with little effort, and not get yourself or others killed within 2/3 ws; before then, THF was comparable, but TP gain is just.. idk, depends on the mob. Most people who dumped w/e DD job they had for SAM did so for that purpose. Some went back, some didn't, which leaves us to where things are now.

Not that I'm saying "give x a chance" or whatever. Simply stating how things are. Personally, parses mean jack to me, at least for endgame, seeing as most of the 2h DDs have marginal differences. I just like seeing shit dead as fast as possible.

[Therin]

Okay, I just came back but I wanted to say that if you'll say something like this:

DRG can throw down close to what a SAM can do, and any large variations will be based on gear or quality of player, not some inherent difference between the jobs.

Then you're either fucking ignorant or just blind.

I've had excellent DRG/SAMs on my Tiamats and Khimairas, and most of the time Penta will do about 450-600 depending on double attacks. The best WS I've seen from a DRG on these two mobs was a double attacked, 300% Impulse Drive on Khimaira for about 800.

You HAVE to be stupid if you feel that a DRG can put out the same damage as a SAM. On these mobs, if you're going for DAMAGE, you HAVE to sub SAM because you won't ever get enough TP to weaponskill (unless you're bringing an Opo-opo Necklace and Sleeping Pots and I've only seen this done one time, and it was by a DRK who didn't have /SAM leveled).

The reason why SAM > DRG in this instance is because SAM gets Meditate as their main, which lets them sub THF and actually crack the defense of these things without having to melee it.

No matter how much bullshit you spit out, you won't be cracking 1000+ every 3 minutes as a DRG on Khimaira/Tiamat. DRK can't either (though DRK makes SOME of this damage back due to Souleater). SAM is the premiere melee DD (BLUs, SMNs, and BLMs are in a different category) for these fights, period. Sorry, but that statement of yours was just horrifically stupid.

Now I'm not flaming DRG. One of my best friends is a DRG and he can do ridiculous damage on most weaker monsters (parses equal to or above my DRK a lot of the time due to Penta Thrust being such a crazy-potent WS on weak monsters). But you have to be realistic. Kkel is absolutely correct.

You could just as easily substitute DRK for DRG in this post and it would be perfectly accurate, the only difference is a DRK gets Stun, Drain, Absorb-TP (which lands maybe 40% of the time on difficult monsters anyway), and Souleater to help their DD potential while DRG gets their Jumps and a Wyvern (which is, amazingly, more suited to support than DD anyway!).

[Akanei]

Okay, I just came back but I wanted to say that if you'll say something like this:

DRG can throw down close to what a SAM can do, and any large variations will be based on gear or quality of player, not some inherent difference between the jobs.

No matter how much bullshit you spit out, you won't be cracking 1000+ every 3 minutes as a DRG on Khimaira/Tiamat. DRK can't either (though DRK makes SOME of this damage back due to Souleater). SAM is the premiere melee DD (BLUs, SMNs, and BLMs are in a different category) for these fights, period. Sorry, but that statement of yours was just horrifically stupid.

I crack 800-1200 on Khimaira every 1-2min, if I'm allowed to SA. Fact. Absolutely no reason to /SAM on that mob if you have even the slightest sense of what to do.

Edit: Tiamat - 3-500 damage in the air, 1200+ on the ground, guaranteed. I can't believe how you've forgotten so easily.