Hmm, DRG Gear Question

[Therin]

Okay, I just came back but I wanted to say that if you'll say something like this:

DRG can throw down close to what a SAM can do, and any large variations will be based on gear or quality of player, not some inherent difference between the jobs.

No matter how much bullshit you spit out, you won't be cracking 1000+ every 3 minutes as a DRG on Khimaira/Tiamat. DRK can't either (though DRK makes SOME of this damage back due to Souleater). SAM is the premiere melee DD (BLUs, SMNs, and BLMs are in a different category) for these fights, period. Sorry, but that statement of yours was just horrifically stupid.

I crack 800-1200 on Khimaira every 1-2min, if I'm allowed to SA. Fact.

Key word.

And lol if you melee it.

[Seraph]

Dominates in accuracy? What, how does that mean anything? Unless i missed some amazing update note that suddenly allows DRG to hit the 100% accuracy mark, they're no more accurate than any other DD worth their salt. And parsing 5% higher accuracy won't mean a thing without a consistent, powerful, punch-through WS.

Why wouldn't accuracy mean anything? lol... Any amounts of attack and haste are diminished greatly if they're not connecting 15-25% of the time.

Any normal melee job outside of a relic user can not hit 90-95% accuracy consistently with meat, and without Madrigal. DRG does dominate in accuracy as far as this goes (aside from RNG of course)... It is the only job that can hit 90-95% accuracy on most mobs, all the while still maintaining a 20-22% haste build with a good amount of attack, DA, possibly TA, and a 6-hit build (?, don't remember off my head and no time to figure out atm). And that isn't something you could ever really consider to be any level of worthless.

Penta isn't exactly a weak WS either.

What i meant was that if you're taking your job to an HNM fight to help out your LS, you better be hitting the upper end of the accuracy cap. I agree, all the haste in the world doesn't mean anything if it just helps you miss faster, same with attack. But really, is there any job (played at an endgame level) without a natural ACC trait that is really hard up to hit these mobs? Are SAM, DRK, WAR, etc really crying out for a trait because ACC at an endgame level is such a huge issue?

I never said Penta was weak per se, but given the choice, would you rather drop Penta Thrust on Khimaira or Gekko/Kasha? Now, if you're talking about a Colibri or a Puk or something, it's a whole different story.

If DRG is that amazing vs. HNM though, how come LS aren't clamoring to sign up DRGs? Why is SAM still the standard when it comes to pretty much everything that doesn't involve Ridill/Kraken/etc DRKs or pure Manaburn?

You have moved back like 10-15 posts at this point. I already went over why having the highest accuracy in the game is something that DRG have over almost every other job in the game and this becomes MORE relevant on HNM, not less.

Seriously, have you played DRG as a DD in like a year? The reason that people aren't clamoring to sign up DRGs is because this is 2008 and jobs are less and less relevant to leaders in who they let into LS's. Good leaders care far more about consistency and capability as a player. Hell, if my LS "needed" a job I could level it in like 2-3 weeks, and have decent to top-notch gear for it.

The real problem is that most people are like you, they don't accept change if it does slap them in the face (ZOMG Tachi: Gekko does so much damage now) or until Ruke does it first to prove that it is good. The fact that you are still making arguments about DRG accuracy shows that you really have no idea about the changes that have been made.

I am a job atheist and pragmatist, I play whatever job is needed or best for the situation. I am currently rebuilding my DRG after some neglect because of their current capabilities.

And Ruke, DRG need Askar Body to get a true 6-hit set up (without unreasonable sacrifices), but honestly since they will be using Penta-thrust and have Jumps (Barone TP bonus) the need for a strict 6-hit build is greatly diminished.

I have to somewhat disagree here on one major point. Noone gets a hardon from slightly better DRG Acc in any endgame fights. It's tossing on an Angon, and then a short time later Spirit Surge Jump for huge insane mob defense reduction bonuses (that don't stack, but you can at least max out the duration of the effects by stringing them together) that get reasonable people excited. It's not that DRG can outparse anyone, it's that they can allow others to essentially outparse what they can normally do themselves, even in a Soul Voiced situation. Things die much faster when they lose a huge chunk of their defense.

I've seen some endgame parses. DRG doesn't suck in them at all, but ive seen the difference having a DRG in a party slot can make in an alliance of 18, and the damage difference overall can be staggering because of the mob debuff. Much better than any other reasonable DD in the same spot can accomplish.

It's a team game gentlemen, not always an individual stat epeen contest.

With that said, in small man events, DRG/Mage is an insane beast, especially with some form of refresh.

[Akanei]

And lol if you melee it.

SA jump is 200-400 damage a round. HJ goes 180-300. Even without melee it's respectable, and you're not worrying about getting TP ganked. When I refer to being allowed, I refer to whether or not I'm allowed to plant TP on it.

Not going to bother going into the nuances about why your shell fails for that very statement. If you can't manage TPing while avoiding being an MP sponge, then:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ingitwrong.jpg

[Therin]

And lol if you melee it.

SA jump is 200-400 damage a round. HJ goes 180-300. Even without melee it's respectable, and you're not worrying about getting TP ganked. When I refer to being allowed, I refer to whether or not I'm allowed to plant TP on it.

Not going to bother going into the nuances about why your shell fails for that very statement.

What's fail about 16 minute Khimaira kills (from damage start)? <_>

The more you can control the pace of the fight, the faster the monsters die. I can't even count the number of times I've popped a Taco when claiming to stall with 2-3 people and killed it before the initial Taco wore off.

Also, most of said kills have been with only one WHM. I don't know what you guys typically bring to Khimaira, but when you've only got one WHM at a mob like that you can't afford to have your DDs dicking around in Dreadstorm range and taking off 60% of their own life just because they felt like poking it for 15-30 damage a couple of times. In those circumstances, with far less than a full alliance and minimal support, you learn how to take down shit down quickly without letting it get a chance to kill your tanks or rape your MP bars.

[shirak]

Have to disagree with you Therin.

1) WS damage isn't the totality of Drg DD. Focusing on ws damage is just a Sam viewpoint and doesn't equal total dd output, I doubt Monks would agree with you either on that. Typically melee and ws damage are very close with drg, and ability damage about a 1/3 of either.

2) Khimara/Tiamat is not the encapsulation of this discusion.

3) Drg/sam isn't always the best sj for drg dd.

4) Agreed, you can substitute Drk for Drg in terms of OP, but they are night and day in terms of jobtraits/abilities/uses. Most notably Drg excels at near hate-less longterm DoT (greater than sam imo from parser) and Drks spike hate with (obviously) excellent zerg potential.

5) Refer to my post above and the relevant post responses to see why Kkel (and you I suppose) are absolutely wrong, or at least very near-sighted.

[Kkel]

In case anyone is wondering, Akanei is one of the other DRGs in my LS. He plays DRG/Melee almost exclusively the way i play DRG/Mage. He uses his DRG for endgame events, i don't. I have nothing but respect for his devotion to, and how he plays, his job. We both work hard to be the best we can. Our subjob selection doesn't make either one of us better than the other, it doesn't make either one of us right or wrong.

[Therin]

Have to disagree with you Therin.

1) WS damage isn't the totality of Drg DD. Focusing on ws damage is just a Sam viewpoint and doesn't equal total dd output, I doubt Monks would agree with you either on that. Typically melee and ws damage are very close with drg, and ability damage about a 1/3 of either.

Yeah, and there's a reason you don't bring MNKs to HNMs anymore.

2) Khimara/Tiamat is not the encapsulation of this discusion.

We all agree that DRG/melee can parse at basically the same level of damage on monsters which are more melee-friendly such as Kirin, sky gods, Fafnir, and Cerberus, so yeah it actually is.

3) Drg/sam isn't always the best sj for drg dd.

It is when you're fighting monsters that can two-shot a melee if you're in range for more than a few seconds at a time. If you leave four melee on a mob that's almost enough TP in ONE attack round for it to do a TP move.

4) Agreed, you can substitute Drk for Drg in terms of OP, but they are night and day in terms of jobtraits/abilities/uses. Most notably Drg excels at near hate-less longterm DoT (greater than sam imo from parser) and Drks spike hate with (obviously) excellent zerg potential.

What I meant with that statement is that DRK, DRG, RNG, WAR, MNK, or any other melee job falls terribly short of the safe-damage that is SAM when you're talking about doing damage while inhibiting TP gain and keeping your alliance safe.

[Akanei]

Going to backpedal for a moment.

and most of the time Penta will do about 450-600 depending on double attacks

You just mentioned ws spam from khim and yet they're doing penta?
...que?

I'm going to stick with you're doing it wrong. If you seriously think /SAM is better than /THF for khim, then you obviously have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

[shirak]

We all agree that DRG/melee can parse at basically the same level of damage on monsters which are more melee-friendly such as Kirin, sky gods, Fafnir, and Cerberus, so yeah it actually is.

Sam sounds like a great option for the fights as you describe, just as Drk is a great option for zerg down Kirin (although Mnk is a fine option here as well). However, I don't define endgame to only be relegated to 1-2 mobs; we'll have to differ there. I see endgame as Alliance work and Limbus/Nyzul/Salvage. I believe "shit is situational applies here" considering we're talking in more of a broad sense.

[Therin]

Going to backpedal for a moment.

and most of the time Penta will do about 450-600 depending on double attacks

You just mentioned ws spam from khim and yet they're doing penta?
...que?

You do realize all 5-hits don't give equal TP, I hope.

[ringthree]

Okay, I just came back but I wanted to say that if you'll say something like this:

DRG can throw down close to what a SAM can do, and any large variations will be based on gear or quality of player, not some inherent difference between the jobs.

Then you're either fucking ignorant or just blind.

I've had excellent DRG/SAMs on my Tiamats and Khimairas, and most of the time Penta will do about 450-600 depending on double attacks. The best WS I've seen from a DRG on these two mobs was a double attacked, 300% Impulse Drive on Khimaira for about 800.

You HAVE to be stupid if you feel that a DRG can put out the same damage as a SAM. On these mobs, if you're going for DAMAGE, you HAVE to sub SAM because you won't ever get enough TP to weaponskill (unless you're bringing an Opo-opo Necklace and Sleeping Pots and I've only seen this done one time, and it was by a DRK who didn't have /SAM leveled).

The reason why SAM > DRG in this instance is because SAM gets Meditate as their main, which lets them sub THF and actually crack the defense of these things without having to melee it.

No matter how much bullshit you spit out, you won't be cracking 1000+ every 3 minutes as a DRG on Khimaira/Tiamat. DRK can't either (though DRK makes SOME of this damage back due to Souleater). SAM is the premiere melee DD (BLUs, SMNs, and BLMs are in a different category) for these fights, period. Sorry, but that statement of yours was just horrifically stupid.

Now I'm not flaming DRG. One of my best friends is a DRG and he can do ridiculous damage on most weaker monsters (parses equal to or above my DRK a lot of the time due to Penta Thrust being such a crazy-potent WS on weak monsters). But you have to be realistic. Kkel is absolutely correct.

You could just as easily substitute DRK for DRG in this post and it would be perfectly accurate, the only difference is a DRK gets Stun, Drain, Absorb-TP (which lands maybe 40% of the time on difficult monsters anyway), and Souleater to help their DD potential while DRG gets their Jumps and a Wyvern (which is, amazingly, more suited to support than DD anyway!).

Weren't you the guy that was QQing in the haste thread? Yeah, I can really see why you would be ok with change. /sigh

Anyway, removing all the ad homs in your statements, I think you are trying to say that SAM is the best DD in the game right now... thats familiar, because wait... I said that!

The point of this argument was not the comparative e-peens of individual jobs, it was to determine which is better, /melee or /mage for DRG whatever the case. Besides the fact that you basically ignored everything that has already been stated just so that you could have a self-congratulatory rant, you largely missed the point. SAM is great, no doubts, but DRG's have moved closer to the point that not subbing a melee job is a waste. You also ignored the accuracy part of the equation, but I don't think you really cared, you just wanted to prove how great one job is over another.

It's not 2005, it's easier to look at how jobs are balanced when you detach yourself from them a little. And since you have fewer and fewer mobs left to justify your "dominance" you are probably feeling more and more threatened. Oh well, if you actually want to respond to more than one out of context sentence without using an insult every third word, then we all can have an discussion, until then, piss off.

[Kkel]

The point of this argument was not the comparative e-peens of individual jobs, it was to determine which is better, /melee or /mage for DRG whatever the case. Besides the fact that you basically ignored everything that has already been stated just so that you could have a self-congratulatory rant, you largely missed the point. SAM is great, no doubts, but DRG's have moved closer to the point that not subbing a melee job is a waste. You also ignored the accuracy part of the equation, but I don't think you really cared, you just wanted to prove how great one job is over another.

You still make no clarification whatsoever. If you're out killing solo/duo, exploring dangerous zones, in campaign solo, etc, is not subbing a melee job still a waste? Ok, have fun getting your face punched down your throat.

For the umpteenth time, it all depends on what you use DRG for.

[isladar]

If you cannot have a civil discussion, do not use the Newbie forums.