WAR/SAM top of the merit job heap?

[Ryda]

I believe I have 4? less accuracy than you, and I'd still prefer a Madrigal over a Minuet. I would think the WAR should have had better accuracy than that though. <_<

Mmm, im not familar with your gear. I have +59 acc with +acc and +dex. But you can look at it this way. With a +2 instrument you get 35 acc from madrigal, Min 4 is 61 with +2 instrument. We could count merits to since most merit min not mad, but ill leave that out. So how much will 35 acc help me? Well on all the puks im capped anyway, and that much acc will cap me on all the other mobs...so my 83% goes to 90% (camp maximum), not bad. On the other hand, I'm using red curry, so that 61 attack is more like 75 attack. I think it would be hard to imagine 75 attack only adding 7% to my damage, but to be fair I never learned the math behind it. When I switch to usu hands ill be even less inclined to use a madrigal.

Someone who knows whats what school me in how to quickly estimate how adding X attack increases your per hit average.

If you did think 1 acc was > 2 attack, you should recommend that all those people wearing Mermans earring, or ehtereal for that matter maybe should switch to Mineut earring or better yet, hollow for 4 acc vs 5 att.

What I should do is get norri kote and an attack earring and macro that acc with usu head in for non puks, and macro them out for haste/attack for puks. I have tried macroing in and out usu head, but its a pain in the butt, i might be more inclined to if i had the two setups more fleshed out.

After doing that I realize I cant get min IV vs madrigal, since i already have min 4 its min 3 i get, but the are only 6 attack different if i understand it right, so I wont change the conclusion.

[Wizerd]

I believe I have 4? less accuracy than you, and I'd still prefer a Madrigal over a Minuet. I would think the WAR should have had better accuracy than that though. <_<

Mmm, im not familar with your gear. I have +59 acc with +acc and +dex. But you can look at it this way. With a +2 instrument you get 35 acc from madrigal, Min 4 is 61 with +2 instrument. We could count merits to since most merit min not mad, but ill leave that out. So how much will 35 acc help me? Well on all the puks im capped anyway, and that much acc will cap me on all the other mobs...so my 83% goes to 90% (camp maximum), not bad. On the other hand, I'm using red curry, so that 61 attack is more like 75 attack. I think it would be hard to imagine 75 attack only adding 7% to my damage, but to be fair I never learned the math behind it. When I switch to usu hands ill be even less inclined to use a madrigal.

Someone who knows whats what school me in how to quickly estimate how adding X attack increases your per hit average.

If you did think 1 acc was > 2 attack, you should recommend that all those people wearing Mermans earring, or ehtereal for that matter maybe should switch to Mineut earring or better yet, hollow for 4 acc vs 5 att.

What I should do is get norri kote and an attack earring and macro that acc with usu head in for non puks, and macro them out for haste/attack for puks. I have tried macroing in and out usu head, but its a pain in the butt, i might be more inclined to if i had the two setups more fleshed out.

After doing that I realize I cant get min IV vs madrigal, since i already have min 4 its min 3 i get, but the are only 6 attack different if i understand it right, so I wont change the conclusion.

Well, I'm not exactly an expert on the math either, so I'm just using personal experience.

This was your gear picture:
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/e...ket/mygear.jpg

I have Chiv Chain instead of Peacock Charm (-5 accuracy)
Spike Earring instead of Coral (same attack)
Shura Togi, Usukane Gote instead of Usukane Haramaki, Ochi(?) Kote (+8 accuracy)
Usukane Hizayoroi instead of Byakko's Haidate (+10 attack)
and finally, Dune Boots instead of Usukane Sune-Ate (fucking bees.. -7 accuracy)

There are stat differences, you have 2 more STR and 18 more DEX than I do, for a total of 13 more accuracy and 9 less attack, assuming we're the same race (not that big a deal).

Perhaps that 13 less accuracy is why I'd rather a Madrigal over Minuet. I haven't camped at south Mamools in a very long time, only north (where you pretty much need a Madrigal at least for every other set of songs), but mostly Colibri.

I also don't buy into the whole 2 accuracy = 1% hit rate bullshit. I don't care how extensive it's been tested by others, my personal experience has shown me that it's closer to 3 accuracy = 1%. When I got my Usukane hands, I tested it out vs Melee Gloves, and my hit rate only rose around 3.5% (from high 70s to low 80s) over at least an hour on each hand piece. It's hard for me to believe that someone with a 78% hit rate can all of a sudden get capped accuracy with a single Madrigal, because I've partied both with Minuet x2 and with Minuet / Madrigal and my hit does not increase that much. Even with the whole diminishing returns thing, it's lower than people make it out to be on here.

I think I'm ranting though, that's what I get @ 1:19am. I'm not sure this post has a point other than the fact that I think Mamool Ja camps are gay to test things on due to inconsistencies between mobs and different beastmen jobs. <_<

[Ryda]

Well, since I didn't personally do those acc=% hit rate tests myself i wont say its correct, but i can see how how it could be correct and people could still assume it was wrong. If you are at a location like mamool ja where you are capped one half the mobs and not capped on the others, and you add 20 acc, your overall hit rate will not increase 10% even if that conversion was correct because you are only increasing your hit rate on the mobs you aren't capped on already. the puks dilute the parse increase.

If you were on birds when you tested it that doesn't apply of course. Though I would say that the 3 parses I posted were all at the same camp, none of which involved anything but the 59 acc I use, comparing them all, 500 fights or so in total, my acc varies by 2-3%...with no changes made to anything, its just statistics. I mentioned in another thread how hard it is to attribute a parser change with a small gear change. You were 1.5% shy of what was expected if you were fighting all mobs you were not capped one. 1.5% is not much of an error, and is smaller than what I experience meriting with the same setup day to day. Like i said, I didn't do the tests on the acc formula so i don't want to claim some sort of authority i don't have, but on the other hand, the observations don't seem to disprove it either.

Thanks for the comparison on gear, only thing off is that the earring is minuet earring not coral. So 16 acc (maybe 17, not sure if I'm on an even or odd dex off the top of my head). 16 acc is the acc difference between 0 and 8/8 H2H merits, so its not a small thing and likely why we prefer different songs.

I wonder if someone knew how much acc you need to cap acc on puks. It would be nice to know just how much i needed for making an appropriate TP macro for when im not on mamool.

[fuergrissa]

However, I never liked the Mamool Ja for parsing on either, I prefer birds because the mobs are much more consistent. Someone who is specifically trying to shine on parses will strategically place their weapon skills on as many puks/pets as they can, and avoid using TP on Mamool Ja unless it's either going to break chain or there are a few lined up and saving TP would be useless. If your WAR/SAM, for example, was saving Meditates for Puks and double WSing on those instead of Mamool Ja, then that could be a clear advantage.

I cant ever see saving TP/JA if your trying to pump up your parse numbers, outside flash/shadows. It's sometimes hard to not hit your multi-hit at 3%hp let alone waiting for a puk.

[Max™]

Mamool can REALLY skew a parse in the favor of someone with luck, and a knack at judging mob TP rates, Colibri are generally better for that sort of thing as was said.

War/Sam can get Counter with Seigan, or Retaliate if they're riding Hasso, pretty good counter rates if using TE well too.

I think the factors aside from the math that Rukeshet pointed out was Berserk, Hasso, Double Attack, Meditate, 6 hits, WS choice, 20-25% haste.

Most jobs have to make sacrifices, large or small, to obtain any of those, except Sam/War and War/Sam, which get all of the above, and Aggressor/moar DA/Ebody/Raging Rush/Retal or Sekka/Meditate +2/Usu/consistent as a train Y/G/K/Kai.

I do love hearing about War/Sam's stomping the shit out of everything though...

Wonder why?

[Therin]

I did parse with a well respected DRK who has speed belt, homam and dusk and such and I'm pretty sure was 6 hit . No e-body though, hauby+1. He used perdu sickle. This is that parse:
The other guy was WAR/NIN with ebody and ridill, I wasnt paying attention to him once i saw him losing, so I dont know what his malfunction was, but other people have told me he doesn't know what he is doing, so there you go kids, you can have e.body and ridill and still parse poorly.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/e...bucket/DRK.jpg

Don't blame it on the WAR's skill. It takes a VERY strong WAR/NIN (like, Rykoshet or something) to beat a good DRK, these days. Last time I partied with a Ridill + E.Body WAR (at Colibri, however) it was with another DRK/SAM and the poor Ridill didn't stand a chance. The other DRK was using Tredecim and I was using Algol. He parsed at about 40%, I parsed at 37%, and the poor WAR had 22-23%. With our 6-hit builds and constant Hasso he didn't have enough time to get TP before the mobs died. Poor guy.

I'm wtfing over the DRK in that parse, though. When I parse mine, my melee damage is almost double my WS damage, and his is just slightly more. He was either casting a lot of spells (which is a no-no, as Ruke stated) or wasn't utilizing Souleater. And I have no idea how he managed 80% accuracy, with attack food I'm at 89-93% typically.

[Vistani]

Well geared war/nin will still slightly edge out well geared mnk/nin, at colibri at least.

What do war/sam use on body? Askar/Ares'/Adaman?

I remember now that varg was on COR, this war a BRD COR pt, with march march chaos roll and the other roll was double attack.

Fail for not using cor roll.

[Max™]

I would go Ebody > Are's > Berk +1 > Askar > Berk myself.

Though Berk +1 vs Are's is really debateable given the Dex, I'd use the Are's if I had it cause it's sexy.

[SamanosukeShiva]

Collibri camp: SAM/WAR+Gondo-Shizunori > ALL DD Relic/no Relic

Shiva ppl feel free to prove me wrong, send me tell ingame :D

[RKenshin]

Adaman definitely the best. I wouldn't really recommend using anything other outside of maybe a fully-merited GA or Bravura WAR with top notch gear in other slots.

Even then though, unless you have a Bravura you're best off keeping the Acc body on when Aggressor isn't up.

[Ryda]

I'm wtfing over the DRK in that parse, though. When I parse mine, my melee damage is almost double my WS damage, and his is just slightly more. He was either casting a lot of spells (which is a no-no, as Ruke stated) or wasn't utilizing Souleater. And I have no idea how he managed 80% accuracy, with attack food I'm at 89-93% typically.

I dont see how casting spells would lower the amount of melee damage out of proportion with WS damage. You need to build tp to ws, and if you melee less you tp less so you ws less. The only TP factor not depending on meleeing is the free tp from meditate.

Also, 93% at south mamool is impossible unless you do something like turn your back when you are flashed to avoid swinging.

[Max™]

Rune Chopper/Pole/_/Bomb Core/Let
Turban/PCC(Fort)/Brutal/Eth or whatever
Are's/Askar/Acc/Rajas
Frger's/Swift/Haidate/Amir

+Sanction and chug an Oj or get Refresh once in a while.

Best situation for Are's I can think of, and basically the only one where I'd really go with it over Ebody.

As for Drk: Absorb TP is a TP factor not dependant on Meleeing.

[Berdysh]

WAR/SAM has been at the top of the merit job heap for awhile, along with really good SAM/WARs, from my observation. I can't see a MNK/WAR beating these jobs in merits anymore; scoring respectably in the parse and keeping up, yes. But, from parses I've seen against MNK/WARs decked out in Destroyers, Usukane, Blackbelts, Toreador rings, etc., the WAR/SAM is usually almost dead even with the MNK in melee damage and has double their overall WS damage.

I can't see what DRK/SAM or DRG/SAM have that would place them over WAR/SAM, but I'm sure both jobs are really close and DRK's going to be equal in a lot of situations. Absorb - TP is nice, but don't underestimate what having merited Berserk and Aggressor to go along with your Hasso brings, along with easy access to 25% haste gear (Rune Chopper) and now Retaliation for throwing up quick on tougher mobs. Even WAR/SAM vs. SAM/WAR, equally geared, is a camp vs. camp deal, in my opinion.

And there's nothing wrong with Ares's Cuirass for Great Axe Warrior. If you're a Warrior really into Great Axe, then hopefully you have it fully merited. Until my Bravura's done, I plan on a setup of Rune Chopper, Fortitude Torque, Ethereal/Brutal, Ares's Cuirass, Ares's Gauntlets (I rather Adaman mufflers but no access), Ulth/Rajas, Ame +1, Speed Belt, Byakko's Haidate and Ares's Sollerets. Every once in awhile I'll toss on Dusk Gloves, Haste Belt, Blitz Ring and Dusk Ledelsens for a super zerg deal - popping Retaliation and self SC'ing Darkness with no meditation is always fun. Rune Chopper's just very underrated and Ares's, Ethereal and Sanction Refresh lets you pull it off full-time without having to ask for Refresh.

Edit: this isn't speaking at all on relic WARs, DRKs or SAMs. I have very little experience with them so I'll defer to the experts.

[Ryda]

WAR/SAM has been at the top of the merit job heap for awhile, along with really good SAM/WARs, from my observation. I can't see a MNK/WAR beating these jobs in merits anymore; scoring respectably in the parse and keeping up, yes. But, from parses I've seen against MNK/WARs decked out in Destroyers, Usukane, Blackbelts, Toreador rings, etc., the WAR/SAM is usually almost dead even with the MNK in melee damage and has double their overall WS damage.

Did you mean to say MNK/WAR? I have to imagine that had I been MNK/WAR I would have won that parse until I got Fang Rushed in the face and lost my food. I just dont see MNK/WAR being a reasonable thing to do at that camp.

[Starr]

It takes a VERY strong WAR/NIN (like, Rykoshet or something) to beat a good DRK, these days.

Uh I really don't agree with this.

[Berdysh]

Yeah, I meant MNK/WAR, though I should have qualified that my parses against this MNK/WAR are always on trolls (where he can /WAR fine). He /NINs at all of the other camps. Your gear is slightly ahead of his, though; he's not quite finished with Usukane head and body, so he uses W. Turban and Shura Togi, but I think he's even in all of the other slots and uses Ulth/Toreador's for rings.

[Wizerd]

WAR/SAM has been at the top of the merit job heap for awhile, along with really good SAM/WARs, from my observation. I can't see a MNK/WAR beating these jobs in merits anymore; scoring respectably in the parse and keeping up, yes. But, from parses I've seen against MNK/WARs decked out in Destroyers, Usukane, Blackbelts, Toreador rings, etc., the WAR/SAM is usually almost dead even with the MNK in melee damage and has double their overall WS damage.

A well-built/merited MNK/WAR would destroy you at any camp (probably even beat a DRG at Colibri). I highly doubt a good WAR/SAM is going to match a MNK/WAR's melee damage, or even come close, especially if they're decked out.

MNK/WAR is just so broken it's not fair, the only redeeming factor is that we don't last nearly long enough.

Relics aside, of course. <_<

Edit:

Yeah, I meant MNK/WAR, though I should have qualified that my parses against this MNK/WAR are always on trolls (where he can /WAR fine). He /NINs at all of the other camps. Your gear is slightly ahead of his, though; he's not quite finished with Usukane head and body, so he uses W. Turban and Shura Togi, but I think he's even in all of the other slots and uses Ulth/Toreador's for rings.

Trolls don't exactly count. They're worse than Mamools for parse skewing, because of Diamondhide. No one wants to save their WS for when Diamondhide wears off just for parse numbers because that fucks your exp.

[fantasticdan]

I can't see what DRK/SAM or DRG/SAM have that would place them over WAR/SAM

Piercing bonus? lol... I'm pretty convinced drg is the top dd on colibri. As for drk, idk. My war/sam outperforms my drk/sam by a decent margin in merits, and they are pretty evenly geared.

[Berdysh]

WAR/SAM has been at the top of the merit job heap for awhile, along with really good SAM/WARs, from my observation. I can't see a MNK/WAR beating these jobs in merits anymore; scoring respectably in the parse and keeping up, yes. But, from parses I've seen against MNK/WARs decked out in Destroyers, Usukane, Blackbelts, Toreador rings, etc., the WAR/SAM is usually almost dead even with the MNK in melee damage and has double their overall WS damage.

A well-built/merited MNK/WAR would destroy you at any camp (probably even beat a DRG at Colibri). I highly doubt a good WAR/SAM is going to match a MNK/WAR's melee damage, or even come close, especially if they're decked out.

MNK/WAR is just so broken it's not fair, the only redeeming factor is that we don't last nearly long enough.

Relics aside, of course. <_<

Edit:

Yeah, I meant MNK/WAR, though I should have qualified that my parses against this MNK/WAR are always on trolls (where he can /WAR fine). He /NINs at all of the other camps. Your gear is slightly ahead of his, though; he's not quite finished with Usukane head and body, so he uses W. Turban and Shura Togi, but I think he's even in all of the other slots and uses Ulth/Toreador's for rings.

Trolls don't exactly count. They're worse than Mamools for parse skewing, because of Diamondhide. No one wants to save their WS for when Diamondhide wears off just for parse numbers because that fucks your exp.

Not going to get in any job vs. job debates because I think both are incredibly strong, and my friend certainly wrecks things on his MNK. I think you're greatly understating the raw melee damage strength of Warrior/Samurai, though. 25% haste in gear, double marches, Haste spell and Hasso is crazy attack speed on a job that's regularly sitting on a 450-460 base attack with a high double attack rate. Toss in a 6-hit setup and Meditate into the equation, and now you're WS'ing at a much higher clip than the MNK with a better WS average... which means you're only having to come within 75% to 80% of the MNK's melee damage, which is definitely plausible.

I probably slighted a MNK's merit potential in my first post, but I'm not seeing how a MNK/WAR's going to kill that (I've only seen otherwise). I'll believe that a tricked out MNK/WAR's going to equal out to a WAR/SAM, but two-handers have a lot of inherent advantages now that are hard to make up for when properly abused.

[Wizerd]

Not going to get in any job vs. job debates because I think both are incredibly strong, and my friend certainly wrecks things on his MNK. I think you're greatly understating the raw melee damage strength of Warrior/Samurai, though. 25% haste in gear, double marches, Haste spell and Hasso is crazy attack speed on a job that's regularly sitting on a 450-460 base attack with a high double attack rate. Toss in a 6-hit setup and Meditate into the equation, and now you're WS'ing at a much higher clip than the MNK with a better WS average... which means you're only having to come within 75% to 80% of the MNK's melee damage, which is definitely plausible.

I probably slighted a MNK's merit potential in my first post, but I'm not seeing how a MNK/WAR's going to kill that (I've only seen otherwise). I'll believe that a tricked out MNK/WAR's going to equal out to a WAR/SAM, but two-handers have a lot of inherent advantages now that are hard to make up for when properly abused.

Your attack speed on WAR is great, but in the same party with the same capped out haste, MNK is still faster by about 10 delay with Destroyers on. Monk's attack certainly isn't low and with Berserk up should be sitting at or near the cap in your standard Min/Min/March/March party if I recall correctly. Raging Rush is great but it still has its random effect, whereas Asuran Fists will consistently put up high numbers provided your accuracy isn't bad. The WAR might get a decent chunk more weapon skills off, but I doubt it's going to add up to enough to beat MNK/WAR, especially if they're wearing Usukane feet and body for the higher Store TP.