WAR/SAM top of the merit job heap?

[fantasticdan]

Raging Rush is great but it still has its random effect, whereas Asuran Fists will consistently put up high numbers provided your accuracy isn't bad.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with that. Even without a lot of DAs and crits, raging rush should be outdamaging asuran consistently.

[Wizerd]

Raging Rush is great but it still has its random effect, whereas Asuran Fists will consistently put up high numbers provided your accuracy isn't bad.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with that. Even without a lot of DAs and crits, raging rush should be outdamaging asuran consistently.

How much damage are you expecting Asuran to do on MNK/WAR?

[RKenshin]

With ideal gear, RR may average ~50-100 max damage higher... But that's it.

Typically the best average you'll get with Asuran is about 9xx, while RR can peak at about 10xx.

A well-built/merited MNK/WAR would destroy you at any camp (probably even beat a DRG at Colibri). I highly doubt a good WAR/SAM is going to match a MNK/WAR's melee damage, or even come close, especially if they're decked out.

MNK/WAR is just so broken it's not fair, the only redeeming factor is that we don't last nearly long enough.

Not really true anymore past the 2h buff, even after all the toning down the difference is as big enough to mean something... It's certainly pushed MNK/WAR down a bit.

MNK/WAR is powerful, but not really broken or overpowered anymore. I'm fully merited and just about as decked as a MNK gets, and I feel I can say for sure it does not beat an equally decked and meritted /SAM with full haste gear and full-time Hasso... For the same reason mentioned earlier, that MNK will be way behind in WS damage, and /WAR won't really chang ethat. I've subbed WAR in exp quite a few times as well (probably more than I've /NIN'd lately lol), and yeah my results are pretty consistent with that.

But, the thing is, you're usually close to capped on attack as is in a 2 BRD or COR PT with red curry. Berserk helps a lot, but it doesn't make as much of a difference.

[Wizerd]

With ideal gear, RR may average ~50-100 max damage higher... But that's it.

Typically the best average you'll get with Asuran is about 9xx, while RR can peak at about 10xx.

A well-built/merited MNK/WAR would destroy you at any camp (probably even beat a DRG at Colibri). I highly doubt a good WAR/SAM is going to match a MNK/WAR's melee damage, or even come close, especially if they're decked out.

MNK/WAR is just so broken it's not fair, the only redeeming factor is that we don't last nearly long enough.

Not really true anymore past the 2h buff, even after all the toning down the difference is as big enough to mean something... It's certainly pushed MNK/WAR down a bit.

MNK/WAR is powerful, but not really broken or overpowered anymore. I'm fully merited and just about as decked as a MNK gets, and I feel I can say for sure it does not beat an equally decked and meritted /SAM with full haste gear and full-time Hasso. I've subbed WAR in exp quite a few times.

But, the thing is, you're usually close to capped on attack as is in a 2 BRD or COR PT with red curry. Berserk helps a lot, but it doesn't make as much of a difference.

I guess so. You have the luxury of having been able to test MNK/WAR in normal scenarios it seems. I haven't been able to use it very much myself outside of very limited things, so I guess my posts are mainly conjecture. However, even on MNK/NIN, at Colibri I average ~850ish on WS, and most WARs I see are hitting a spread of about 550-1100ish, from what I recall. It seems like that would average slightly lower than Asuran Fists. Add in Berserk and Asuran should break 900 pretty consistently I would think.

I've already expressed my dislike of Mamool Ja camps, so I don't have much testing there at all, especially after getting my Usu gloves/head.

[Max™]

Uh, my gear isn't amazing by any stretch and I've had people parse me at lolibri and mamools where I averaged 1k on Raging Rush or better, ranging from lolsinglehit 300-400's, up to full DA/Crits for 1700-1900, and I KNOW there are people with much better WS gears than I have that can do better.

Yeah it would be different at North Camp, haven't had a parse run there, but Asuran basically has a hard cap on it's damage, full TP return will only do so much damage on a given mob.

Raging Rush... man, the sky IS the fuckin limit it seems at times.

[RKenshin]

I did some math for fun, so I can give something more solid than just my opinion.

A MNK in exp with Marchx2, Haste spell, and in 25% haste gear is looking at 60% haste. With Destroyers they should also have 348 delay, for about 139 overall delay after haste. I'm just going to calculate over an hour, since it's easy! Just remember this is not a realistic expectation and implies melee'ing non-stop on a mob for an hour without ever activating something/disengaging, and is just for a relative comparison!

So, over an hour, or 216000 delay, a MNK will get in 1553 attack rounds. Or, about 3106 swings. Factoring in 5% DA and 15% kicks, where a DA can proc on any attack and a kick can only attack on an attack round, it's now +232 kicks and +155 double attacks. For a total of 3493 swings, or 2969 hits with 85% acc.

With 17 hits needed to reach 100 TP after a WS, this will also result in about 174 WS (assuming you start with TP, and use 100% TP the instant you break it, and don't DA/kick for over TP). This is the major weak point, and where /SAMs get a huge advantage.

Now, since we're discussing WAR/SAM, I'll go into a decked WAR/SAM. With the same buffs and Perdu and Hasso, you're looking at 151 weapon delay.

Over an hour, this WAR will get in 1430 attack rounds. Factoring in 24% DA, this brought up to 1773. After 85% acc (although, in theory WAR should average higher acc... but let's not get into that), it's 1507 swings.

With 5 hits needed to reach 100 TP after a WS, this will result in about 301 WS (same assumptions). Giving it a huge boost in WS damage over MNK, as other people's results have shown. That's where MNK falls behind now.

Hell, if you want to get more snazzy and plug in some parse math here... With MNK averaging 100 a hit, WAR average 170 a hit, and both WS average at 1k... It's 470900 damage for the MNK versus 557190 for WAR/SAM. Assuming the same accuracy and WS averages, even though WAR is likely to be higher.

The WAR would be sponging his ass off though if you're not killing fast! While MNK wouldn't be. Unless the MNK subbed WAR, in which case it'd be closer but I think that WAR would still edge out a win.

EDIT: Made a mistake I just fixed, in regard to it only being 5 hits to reach 100 TP after a WS for WAR. I originally thought 6.

[Ryda]

What store-tp did you use to calculate the MNKs hits to 100%?

Thanks for the math.

My parse shows her getting 179 WS to my 115. Even though I did more melee damage, and my average WS was 930 to her 940, that speed of WS very dramatic.

Hopefully I can parse with her again soon. I have build two marcos for TP that I think will improve things somewhat.

Ruke you are 5/5 usu?

[tyven]

screw all of you two handers that get to keep hasso up full time. i havent had a merit party yet where its not full time seigan + third eye for me

[Wizerd]

Oi, I think my opinion is hampered due to partying with WARs that aren't very good then. Ruke said 170 a hit average for the WAR, I was looking at closer to 150, I think, which in the long run makes a huge difference.

To be honest, I'm not too sure anymore. The math is compelling. Targeting skill or being the one who *is* supposed to be the target (always good to have 1 person as the main targeter in case 2 people attack different mobs, they switch to this person's mob) is the largest parse skewer out there.

I don't think we'll ever actually get a fair parse, since everyone is different in how they play. This is why I think SE needs to make a furnishing (or an area) that lets you just punch a bag for a while, having set its stats at whatever you'd like them to be. It won't fight back and would be just for testing builds and stuff. Would be awesome.

[RKenshin]

What store-tp did you use to calculate the MNKs hits to 100%?

Thanks for the math.

My parse shows her getting 179 WS to my 115. Even though I did more melee damage, and my average WS was 930 to her 940, that speed of WS very dramatic.

Hopefully I can parse with her again soon. I have build two marcos for TP that I think will improve things somewhat.

Ruke you are 5/5 usu?

I don't have full Usu . I'm 14/15, missing the 35 head piece, 0/67 on it.

I actually didn't use any Store TP in that calculation, didn't even think to. But, using full Usu + Brutal for MNK you'd have 14 Store TP. And about a 17 TP return on Asuran? Starting from there, at 5% TP a hit, it'd now take 15 hits to break 100% TP.

So, the new numbers would be this:

* 197 WS
* 493900 total damage for MNK

Much closer, but WAR still eeks a little further ahead.

[trencher]

Well according to Ruke's calculations, a WAR/SAM would eek out slightly higher vs the MNK. Which I assume was /NIN.

However, given an equally geared WAR/SAM and SAM/WAR, and by equally i mean TPing in BHaidate, haubs, chiv chains, etc, who would put out more damage overall given the same 1 hour mob?

[Ryda]

19 store tp for me, but i use rajas. My full return is 18%.

I wish I knew if that changes anything, if it doesn't save me a hit to 100% maybe ill ditch it when im not acc capped.

[RKenshin]

I deliberately didn't include the use of Rajas, because I'm already kind of pushing it by assuming a decked MNK and a decked WAR would have the same accuracy percents. The MNK losing more accuracy would only make my calculations less accurate, likely in favor of making MNK look stronger. A decked MNK would be at about +87 accuracy including merit and DEX conversions, with +30 acc up about 40% of the time. A decked WAR would be at about 103 acc including merits, DEX converstions, Hasso, the conversion DEX difference, with +25 acc up about 60% of the time.

Besides if I get too technical into what both jobs can wear... I might as well include everything.

In which case, WAR would likely have higher accuracy and a higher WS average, MNK would likely have a higher crit-rate (I didn't even factor criticals), WAR would also have Zanshin, MNK would have counter-attacks, WAR would have retaliate, etc. Too much!

[Alexandor]

screw all of you two handers that get to keep hasso up full time. i havent had a merit party yet where its not full time seigan + third eye for me

same on SAM <.<;

[Genosync]

Man, I like discussions like these, but they also make a lot of noobs think that 'oh hey, I see four WARs seeking, I'll make a PT of just WAR and get tons of XP', so be careful what you name your topics and how you say things in the end...

I mean, it's not my problem anymore, but these kinds of things do make a lot of newer players get in the wrong mindset.

[RKenshin]

Sad truth of some of the idiots on the internet.

I don't know how many people saw my NIN update 2-3 years ago and assumed from it that any NIN, crappy or not, could tank anything and be omfg awesome at it, only for the NIN to suck and the LS think that it's other people and not the NIN. Then I get PMs/e-mails/etc about it and asking why they can't kill Fafnir or something, with there evasion build NIN. D: Not that NIN can't work as a tank for anything, but it sure doesn't if the tank sucks. Just like trying to get any shitty tank to work anywhere. Some people even would assume that only NIN was able to tank.

This was like 2-3 years ago, but yeah... I'm sure there are still people that do the same thing now, just a different story for a different time.

[Starr]

wru Therin? I don't think any DRK/SAM equally equipped as my WAR could out parse me.

[Talint]

screw all of you two handers that get to keep hasso up full time. i havent had a merit party yet where its not full time seigan + third eye for me

Yeah, wtf is this "keep Hasso up all the time" bullshit? I do that and wind up dead.

[RKenshin]

If it's a fast enough PT you can get away with it, but otherwise with slower fights it can be difficult with just one mage.

[Lordender]

If the support of the party is excellent allowing the drk to play aggressive then I can see a good drk being hard to beat but in your typical pick up party that style of play will more than likely get you killed. I think thats the big drawback about drk is that if you want to parse high you can't afford to play too safe but in a good burn you should be wiping out mobs real fast.