Governator cutting education funds!!

[archibaldcrane]

you can keep asking me, or you can just read the wiki where all these questions are addressed. Almost every anarchy philosopher points out these common questions.
edit: I'm going to bed, i'll answer these questions tomorrow if your too lazy to read wiki and follow sources.

Way to let the wiki do your arguing for you. That's a very long article to expect everyone to continue participating in this thread to read. How about you point out how poor children from broken homes are guaranteed the opportunity to get an education in this system?

[Demosthenes11]

maybe I'm just thinking out loud but why does the best system have to guarantee everyone gets the same education?
More of a rhetorical question...
We live in the real world, not in fairy tales.

[Elmer the Pointy]

Why is Blue Gartr's General Discussion section such a draw for the self-proclaimed greatest philosophical minds of our time?

I guess some people enjoy discussing politics and philosophy as much as others enjoy translation? idk

Fair enough.

I just thought posting 'guartz is annoying,' would be too simple...

[archibaldcrane]

maybe I'm just thinking out loud but why does the best system have to guarantee everyone gets the same education?
More of a rhetorical question...
We live in the real world, not in fairy tales.

Because most people believe that children who can't control the happenstance of where they were born and the wealth/race/etc of their parents shouldn't be limited to a great degree by such a happenstance.

The "best" of anything on a large scale in the real world is going to be a fairy tale, but it's also what we should strive for.

[Quicklet]

The "best" of anything on a large scale in the real world is going to be a fairy tale, but it's also what we should strive for.

The problem is that there are different ways of measuring what "the best" is as well as different ideas about how to go about getting there.

[archibaldcrane]

The "best" of anything on a large scale in the real world is going to be a fairy tale, but it's also what we should strive for.

The problem is that there are different ways of measuring what "the best" is as well as different ideas about how to go about getting there.

Absolutely - as I acknowledged, not everyone agrees that children receiving an equal and good education is the result of the "best" system.

[Beckwin]

maybe I'm just thinking out loud but why does the best system have to guarantee everyone gets the same education?
More of a rhetorical question...
We live in the real world, not in fairy tales.

Do you like the idea of becoming someone's bitch before you were even born?

basically, social contract and subsequent egalitarianism is why. of course it'll never be perfect, but like it's been said, we should always strive to make it so.

[Demosthenes11]

is it really in the best interest of a society to educate everyone equally?
Is it not better that some people know little and have their contribution to society while others know a lot and have their contributions. If everyone were well educated, there would be no gammas

editx3 because im tired as fuck and still a little inebriated

[Beckwin]

is it really in the best interest of a society to educate everyone equally?
Is it not better that some people know little and have their contribution to society while others know a lot and have their contributions. If everyone were well educated, there would be no gammas

editx3 because im tired as fuck and still a little inebriated

Gonna have to explain the gamma thing to me (not familiar with the terminology, sorry). But there's more than occupation to consider when it comes to education. Civic duty/capability is also at stake, not to mention tertiary things like parenthood (not saying you need to be highly educated to be a good parent, but being able to teach/advise your child school things never hurts) and being better consumers. Add to the fact that the decision for someone to "know little" and "know a lot" shouldn't be determined before their birth, based solely off who their parents are (unless you want to get into social darwinism bullshit).

This is getting into socialist theory (or at least my theories on it) but there's no reason why at some point, being a fieldworker or janitor or w/e couldn't be a respectable trade for someone with a decent education. Utopia here, but I think a smarter society would realize that for every building a brilliant architect makes, there's toilets in it that someone has to clean, and there's no reason why that necessary task nor the tasker should be looked down on.

All that considered, I just can't see any detriment to a well-educated populace. Those with the mix of aptitude and desire for advanced positions will seek them, but having a high lowest common denominator can't be a bad thing.

[Egon]

It's not the governments job to educate us anyway. Plus, why would anyone trust the info they are giving our children to be correct? They can't do alot of things right and you know it.

Who else can guarantee that every American child gets educated? And I mean every single one. Who else can even try to make education decent for every child (not that it is, but it could be much worse.)

Seriously... They aren't out to get you.

I sell car parts for a living. I'm pretty good at it cause it's what i have to do to put food on the table. If the government started to sell car parts, i can assure you the prices would be higher, and the service would be craptastic. There is no push for success cause if they fail, they just do what canada did with health care and make private practice illegal.

Long story short, the private sector ALWAYS preforms better than anything the government can do. Sure if all schools were private, you may pay a little more out of pocket at the get go, but in the long term you'll be paying alot less taxes and your kids will have a much better unbiased education. That is something you can't put a price tag on.

[Correction]

is it really in the best interest of a society to educate everyone equally?
Is it not better that some people know little and have their contribution to society while others know a lot and have their contributions. If everyone were well educated, there would be no gammas

editx3 because im tired as fuck and still a little inebriated

Not up to the schools or anybody else to determine who stays just dumb enough to get jobs that never rise above 'assistant janitor.' Ideally schools would provide equal opportunity to every student. Otherwise we should just run IQ/psychological evaluations on every 2nd grader and funnel the stupid kids to a vocational track. But that would be....*gasp* shockingly socialist of us. Didn't think a hardened republican had it in him to suggest that.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

[Also vouchers are dumb and would only make the situation much worse in the exact same ways it's screwed up now.

Why? Vouchers would eliminate that whole problem of living in a poor neighborhood = shit school and living in a rich neighborhood = good school. It also would eliminate the government monopoly on education and create competition. Oops, this board hates capitalism I might have just shot myself in the foot.

[guartz]

you can keep asking me, or you can just read the wiki where all these questions are addressed. Almost every anarchy philosopher points out these common questions.
edit: I'm going to bed, i'll answer these questions tomorrow if your too lazy to read wiki and follow sources.

Way to let the wiki do your arguing for you. That's a very long article to expect everyone to continue participating in this thread to read. How about you point out how poor children from broken homes are guaranteed the opportunity to get an education in this system?

I'm sending you to the wiki, because your are presenting me with an argument that virtually stipulates "Anarch-capitalism fails because somewhere, somehow, a child might get neglected."

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though, let's say you really do care what happens to the kids, and are not just using it as a cheap ethical trap to nay-say a solid theory.
Since you'll have a lot of like-minded people, you can just create a social program, a voluntary one, where people can contract into, that would educate those who have no means to do it themselves. Instead of relying on the state to do it.

[Orph]

is it really in the best interest of a society to educate everyone equally?
Is it not better that some people know little and have their contribution to society while others know a lot and have their contributions. If everyone were well educated, there would be no gammas

editx3 because im tired as fuck and still a little inebriated

I agree that not everyone should be educated equally. By the time your in high school, the people that don't want to be there end up dumbing down the whole system for those that actually want to be educated.

My sister currently works for the public schools as a behavior specialist, she deals wit a lot of the bad kids. Starting this week she has to spend all her time with one kid. She was given this assignment because the two people that worked with the kid before are unable to work due to physical injuries as a result of attacks from the kid. There is absolutly no reason kids like this should be in a public school system.

George Bush's "no child left behind" plan is retarded. Sometimes people need to be left behind.

[Beckwin]

[Also vouchers are dumb and would only make the situation much worse in the exact same ways it's screwed up now.

Why? Vouchers would eliminate that whole problem of living in a poor neighborhood = shit school and living in a rich neighborhood = good school. It also would eliminate the government monopoly on education and create competition. Oops, this board hates capitalism I might have just shot myself in the foot.

So we shut down all the schools in the slums and instead have the government pay private institutions to cover the gap? ok.

pro-tip: you don't improve neighborhoods by removing schools from them.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though, let's say you really do care what happens to the kids, and are not just using it as a cheap ethical trap to nay-say a solid theory.
Since you'll have a lot of like-minded people, you can just create a social program, a voluntary one, where people can contract into, that would educate those who have no means to do it themselves. Instead of relying on the state to do it.

Because most (sane?) people come to the realization that there wouldn't be enough truly benevolent business ownership to help everyone. Your private social system you described is a business and subject to capitalist desire- maybe a few people that run them will sacrifice profits to keep prices low for benevolent reasons, but all would likely not. Also we're talking about children of poor parents, and you suggest having parents buy an education service? Come now.

I sell car parts for a living. I'm pretty good at it cause it's what i have to do to put food on the table. If the government started to sell car parts, i can assure you the prices would be higher, and the service would be craptastic. There is no push for success cause if they fail, they just do what canada did with health care and make private practice illegal.

Long story short, the private sector ALWAYS preforms better than anything the government can do. Sure if all schools were private, you may pay a little more out of pocket at the get go, but in the long term you'll be paying alot less taxes and your kids will have a much better unbiased education. That is something you can't put a price tag on.

I've had experience in car parts, lol. One of the more successful dealers in town and uh, I wouldn't describe it as super-efficient.

The private sector MIGHT perform better than what the government can do... IF there is money to be made. Educating the children of poor families is not some untapped financial goldmine. Neither is providing healthcare that's affordable (insurance is just too fucking profitable, same with drugs). Also, I have no idea why you think private education would have less bias than public- hell, a large portion of existing private schools are parochial/religiously affiliated.

[Demosthenes11]

is it really in the best interest of a society to educate everyone equally?
Is it not better that some people know little and have their contribution to society while others know a lot and have their contributions. If everyone were well educated, there would be no gammas

editx3 because im tired as fuck and still a little inebriated

Gonna have to explain the gamma thing to me (not familiar with the terminology, sorry). But there's more than occupation to consider when it comes to education. Civic duty/capability is also at stake, not to mention tertiary things like parenthood (not saying you need to be highly educated to be a good parent, but being able to teach/advise your child school things never hurts) and being better consumers. Add to the fact that the decision for someone to "know little" and "know a lot" shouldn't be determined before their birth, based solely off who their parents are (unless you want to get into social darwinism bullshit).

This is getting into socialist theory (or at least my theories on it) but there's no reason why at some point, being a fieldworker or janitor or w/e couldn't be a respectable trade for someone with a decent education. Utopia here, but I think a smarter society would realize that for every building a brilliant architect makes, there's toilets in it that someone has to clean, and there's no reason why that necessary task nor the tasker should be looked down on.

All that considered, I just can't see any detriment to a well-educated populace. Those with the mix of aptitude and desire for advanced positions will seek them, but having a high lowest common denominator can't be a bad thing.

The gamma thing is from brave new world. All the gammas, deltas, and epsilons were clones of each other (basically) and were given the shittier jobs because they were less intelligent /educated.
Your response is interesting, however it's fact that the "lower" occupations require little to no experience. If you complete 4 years of college and have a degree in biochemistry, are you going to take jobs doing manual labor for a low wage?
Sure, it's great to think that everyone should respect that position and not think it a bad job, but I really don't see that changing...it's deeply ingrained into the culture - from Scrubs to illegals.

and correction: im a republican? Conservative -yes, republican - fuck no

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

[Also vouchers are dumb and would only make the situation much worse in the exact same ways it's screwed up now.

Why? Vouchers would eliminate that whole problem of living in a poor neighborhood = shit school and living in a rich neighborhood = good school. It also would eliminate the government monopoly on education and create competition. Oops, this board hates capitalism I might have just shot myself in the foot.

So we shut down all the schools in the slums and instead have the government pay private institutions to cover the gap? ok.

pro-tip: you don't improve neighborhoods by removing schools from them.

Where did I say the government would pay private institutions? And where did I say "improve neighborhoods by removing schools?"

[guartz]

Because most (sane?) people come to the realization that there wouldn't be enough truly benevolent business ownership to help everyone. Your private social system you described is a business and subject to capitalist desire- maybe a few people that run them will sacrifice profits to keep prices low for benevolent reasons, but all would likely not. Also we're talking about children of poor parents, and you suggest having parents buy an education service? Come now.

charity will be subject to capitalist desire? Are you sure about that?

Even if that is true, you can have the kids pay you back slowly once they graduate and can work. More or less like a low interest deferred loans?

[Dareus]

The government needs to gtfo of the school systems. Send the freaking money and thats all. Let the people who, ya know, teach the kids and run the schools figure out the best ways to spend it. and No Child Left Behind is quite possibly the worst idea ever conceived, and honesty those who support to should be shot. Dumbing down a entire nation does not equal the same education for everyone!

[Maxxthepenguin]

is it really in the best interest of a society to educate everyone equally?
Is it not better that some people know little and have their contribution to society while others know a lot and have their contributions. If everyone were well educated, there would be no gammas

I don't care about society. I don't even really care about the economy. I care about the people who are affected and the fact that in this modern world both society and economy are necessary for people to have good lives rooted in our nation, but when people start caring about society and economy ABOVE people, that's where I draw the line.

People > Concepts