Governator cutting education funds!!

[guartz]

I don't care about society.... I care about the people...

well, society is not something tangible, it's just a bunch of people.

Epic maxx, epic.

[Correction]

The government needs to gtfo of the school systems. Send the freaking money and thats all. Let the people who, ya know, teach the kids and run the schools figure out the best ways to spend it. and No Child Left Behind is quite possibly the worst idea ever conceived, and honesty those who support to should be shot. Dumbing down a entire nation does not equal the same education for everyone!

This is actually a naive way to look at things. The best place to look for examples of how 'throw money at it' has absolutely failed the students is at some of the largest school districts in the country. My personal experience doesn't extend past the Los Angeles Unified district but it's a good place to start.

There are lots of little examples of money just going down the toilet when its thrown at public officials in charge of managing it, but this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belmont_Learning_Center

is all you really need to see to grasp the larger picture. For every project launched within the LAUSD there are managers and submanagers and their contractors wetting themselves to get a piece of it. So much money is sponged off in the administrative process that by the time you get to the per-student spending, the leftover funds have basically been reduced to pennies.

"But just give more money and put requirements on spending that doesn't get sopped up in red tape!"

Then you'll have administrators fudge the definition of 'spending it on students.' After all, maintenance costs such as air conditioning in buildings and upgrading the truck fleet that ships between school sites do benefit classrooms, if only peripherally.

[Maxxthepenguin]

I don't care about society.... I care about the people...

well, society is not something tangible, it's just a bunch of people.

Epic maxx, epic.

When you start saying 'well lets leave some people behind on behalf of society' you have to make the distinction.

Fuck concepts, hurray people

[Charla]

Can we just say "the greatest good for the greatest number" and go from there? Oh wait, someone already tried that like a hundred years ago.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

The government needs to gtfo of the school systems. Send the freaking money and thats all. Let the people who, ya know, teach the kids and run the schools figure out the best ways to spend it. and No Child Left Behind is quite possibly the worst idea ever conceived, and honesty those who support to should be shot. Dumbing down a entire nation does not equal the same education for everyone!

This is actually a naive way to look at things. The best place to look for examples of how 'throw money at it' has absolutely failed the students is at some of the largest school districts in the country. My personal experience doesn't extend past the Los Angeles Unified district but it's a good place to start.

There are lots of little examples of money just going down the toilet when its thrown at public officials in charge of managing it, but this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belmont_Learning_Center

is all you really need to see to grasp the larger picture. For every project launched within the LAUSD there are managers and submanagers and their contractors wetting themselves to get a piece of it. So much money is sponged off in the administrative process that by the time you get to the per-student spending, the leftover funds have basically been reduced to pennies.

"But just give more money and put requirements on spending that doesn't get sopped up in red tape!"

Then you'll have administrators fudge the definition of 'spending it on students.' After all, maintenance costs such as air conditioning in buildings and upgrading the truck fleet that ships between school sites do benefit classrooms, if only peripherally.

He might of meant vouchers.

[guartz]

When you start saying 'well lets leave some people behind on behalf of society' you have to make the distinction.

Fuck concepts, hurray people

well we established that society is people, right?

So how can you justify using force against some people for benefit of other people?

You can't, they have to choose to be charitable for it to be moral.

If you don't make THAT distinction, you might as well join the Co$

[archibaldcrane]

Where did I say the government would pay private institutions? And where did I say "improve neighborhoods by removing schools?"

You were talking about vouchers. In the cases of school vouchers being implemented that I'm familiar with (in Milwaukee), the government allowed students to attend private schools and they paid for at least a portion of the tuition for these parochial and/or religious institutions with the vouchers. Are there situations in America where school vouchers have been implemented that didn't involve private schools? (what's the point of vouchers if it doesn't?)

[guartz]

Can we just say "the greatest good for the greatest number" and go from there? Oh wait, someone already tried that like a hundred years ago.

maxx is a communist, everyone knows that.

Also, your avatar owns.

[Maxxthepenguin]

Can we just say "the greatest good for the greatest number" and go from there? Oh wait, someone already tried that like a hundred years ago.

maxx is a communist, everyone knows that.

Also, your avatar owns.

I didn't know that. I thought I was just somebody who thinks a mix of socialism and capitalism are what will serve the citizens of the USA the best.

[guartz]

Can we just say "the greatest good for the greatest number" and go from there? Oh wait, someone already tried that like a hundred years ago.

maxx is a communist, everyone knows that.

Also, your avatar owns.

I didn't know that. I thought I was just somebody who thinks a mix of socialism and capitalism are what will serve the citizens of the USA the best.

well, some people think christianity will serve the citizens of the USA the best. Moral and practical contradictions don't stop them either.

[Khamsin]

Can we just say "the greatest good for the greatest number" and go from there? Oh wait, someone already tried that like a hundred years ago.

maxx is a communist, everyone knows that.

Also, your avatar owns.

I didn't know that. I thought I was just somebody who thinks a mix of socialism and capitalism are what will serve the citizens of the USA the best.

well, some people think christianity will serve the citizens of the USA the best. Moral and practical contradictions don't stop them either.

And some think that anarchy will serve the citizens of the USA the best.

Besides, the government can't impose a religion, they can impose an economic structure, however.

[Quicklet]

Besides, the government can't impose a religion, they can impose an economic structure, however.

Only to a certain point. Go too far and all it does is create a larger black market.

[Beckwin]

as if anarchocapitalism doesn't have moral and practical contradictions.

[Quicklet]

Well, according to anarchocapitalism it's legal for parents to let their children die. It's also legal for parents to sell children to other people.

http://www.mises.org/story/2568

[Khamsin]

Well, according to anarchocapitalism it's legal for parents to let their children die. It's also legal for parents to sell children to other people.

http://www.mises.org/story/2568

It's anarchy, lot's of things are legal... or rather, not illegal.

By the way,

It advocates the elimination of the state; the provision of law enforcement, courts, national defense, and all other security services by voluntarily-funded competitors in a free market rather than through compulsory taxation

So who pays for roads? And if there are law enforcement or court services for hire, and I want to sue somebody, whose court do we go to? The one I hired, or the one they hired?

[Demosthenes11]

is it really in the best interest of a society to educate everyone equally?
Is it not better that some people know little and have their contribution to society while others know a lot and have their contributions. If everyone were well educated, there would be no gammas

I don't care about society. I don't even really care about the economy. I care about the people who are affected and the fact that in this modern world both society and economy are necessary for people to have good lives rooted in our nation, but when people start caring about society and economy ABOVE people, that's where I draw the line.

People > Concepts

that's a pretty selfish PoV don't you think? That you want to feel good about where you live and what opportunity it gives everyone equally, you feel that is more important than a prosperous nation. It isn't morally wrong or right either way either, do don't try and argue that. The only reason to give everyone the same treatment is guilt or your own personally sense of morals, which is different from person to person. Why is it so wrong for such a large majority to prosper when the only real downside is a minority must do "lower" jobs which may or may not make or break their happiness. Are the more uneducated really better off thinking they are being wronged somehow instead of trying to just be happy doing what they can?

I don't even know what I feel about this really, I'm just asking questions

[Correction]

The government needs to gtfo of the school systems. Send the freaking money and thats all. Let the people who, ya know, teach the kids and run the schools figure out the best ways to spend it. and No Child Left Behind is quite possibly the worst idea ever conceived, and honesty those who support to should be shot. Dumbing down a entire nation does not equal the same education for everyone!

This is actually a naive way to look at things. The best place to look for examples of how 'throw money at it' has absolutely failed the students is at some of the largest school districts in the country. My personal experience doesn't extend past the Los Angeles Unified district but it's a good place to start.

There are lots of little examples of money just going down the toilet when its thrown at public officials in charge of managing it, but this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belmont_Learning_Center

is all you really need to see to grasp the larger picture. For every project launched within the LAUSD there are managers and submanagers and their contractors wetting themselves to get a piece of it. So much money is sponged off in the administrative process that by the time you get to the per-student spending, the leftover funds have basically been reduced to pennies.

"But just give more money and put requirements on spending that doesn't get sopped up in red tape!"

Then you'll have administrators fudge the definition of 'spending it on students.' After all, maintenance costs such as air conditioning in buildings and upgrading the truck fleet that ships between school sites do benefit classrooms, if only peripherally.

He might of meant vouchers.

I don't know how vouchers are some sort of guard against or punish school administrators overpaying for facilities and equipment. Most tuition isn't refundable, IIRC.

[Beckwin]

is it really in the best interest of a society to educate everyone equally?
Is it not better that some people know little and have their contribution to society while others know a lot and have their contributions. If everyone were well educated, there would be no gammas

I don't care about society. I don't even really care about the economy. I care about the people who are affected and the fact that in this modern world both society and economy are necessary for people to have good lives rooted in our nation, but when people start caring about society and economy ABOVE people, that's where I draw the line.

People > Concepts

that's a pretty selfish PoV don't you think? That you want to feel good about where you live and what opportunity it gives everyone equally, you feel that is more important than a prosperous nation. It isn't morally wrong or right either way either, do don't try and argue that. The only reason to give everyone the same treatment is guilt or your own personally sense of morals, which is different from person to person. Why is it so wrong for such a large majority to prosper when the only real downside is a minority must do "lower" jobs which may or may not make or break their happiness. Are the more uneducated really better off thinking they are being wronged somehow instead of trying to just be happy doing what they can?

I don't even know what I feel about this really, I'm just asking questions

The idea is that this country was started because we decided not to be authoritarians. The government exists to serve the people.

Keep in mind, I'm not talking about every single person having a 4 year academic degree. I'm saying that it is the governments responsibility to provide an education system for young people so that when they become consenting adults, they have every door possible open for them. Their choices beyond that are just that- their choices. Don't want to pursue education anymore and instead want to jump into a trade? That's fine. Decided that you really have no ambition for much in the way of wealth and would prefer to do whatever menial job just to get by? Fine too. Want to go to college to continue study? Great.

On top of that, I'll still contend that having a higher lowest common denominator as far as general education goes yields more prosperity for a nation, unless maybe you want to dip back into a feudal system (bring on the serfs!).

[Vistani]

is it really in the best interest of a society to educate everyone equally?
Is it not better that some people know little and have their contribution to society while others know a lot and have their contributions. If everyone were well educated, there would be no gammas

I don't care about society. I don't even really care about the economy. I care about the people who are affected and the fact that in this modern world both society and economy are necessary for people to have good lives rooted in our nation, but when people start caring about society and economy ABOVE people, that's where I draw the line.

People > Concepts

that's a pretty selfish PoV don't you think? That you want to feel good about where you live and what opportunity it gives everyone equally, you feel that is more important than a prosperous nation. It isn't morally wrong or right either way either, do don't try and argue that. The only reason to give everyone the same treatment is guilt or your own personally sense of morals, which is different from person to person. Why is it so wrong for such a large majority to prosper when the only real downside is a minority must do "lower" jobs which may or may not make or break their happiness. Are the more uneducated really better off thinking they are being wronged somehow instead of trying to just be happy doing what they can?

I don't even know what I feel about this really, I'm just asking questions

You realise you're talking about a society with a subcaste of slaves, right?

[Beckwin]

there's a reason we didn't want the darkies learning how to read. they got all uppity.