Wopa vs. Ringthree: Abj sale is serious business

[skurlover]

Ring, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you are hurt by people doing ISNMs and ENMs for money.

It is more that you are selling RARE/EX gear.

[Demosthenes11]

Ring, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're an idiot

[Senoska]

wopa:
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/7...ttwhorexp5.jpg

At least the other attention whores on the forum post tits and cocl .

[ringthree]

If you're going to argue that selling haidate/abj is RMT, that means you need to basically watch EVERY thing you ever sell on the AH. If you see that it's RMT that has bought it, you should go to the nearest goblin footprint and trade it the 4,000,000 gil you just got from that peacock charm so as to not be part of the "RMT" cycle.

Arguing that selling Abj. to other players is RMT is retarded as hell.

You missed the point. Legit players that sell stuff to other legit players = legit. Players that farm sky pop items to sell the drop to people that obviously RMTed the gil to pay for them = not-legit.

Why is this distinction so hard to understand?

[layoneil]

If you're going to argue that selling haidate/abj is RMT, that means you need to basically watch EVERY thing you ever sell on the AH. If you see that it's RMT that has bought it, you should go to the nearest goblin footprint and trade it the 4,000,000 gil you just got from that peacock charm so as to not be part of the "RMT" cycle.

Arguing that selling Abj. to other players is RMT is retarded as hell.

You missed the point. Legit players that sell stuff to other legit players = legit. Players that farm sky pop items to sell the drop to people that obviously RMTed the gil to pay for them = not-legit.

Why is this distinction so hard to understand?

because there's no distinction, anyone who sells anything is subject to selling to legit players as well as selling to RMT.

[Lexa]

If you're going to argue that selling haidate/abj is RMT, that means you need to basically watch EVERY thing you ever sell on the AH. If you see that it's RMT that has bought it, you should go to the nearest goblin footprint and trade it the 4,000,000 gil you just got from that peacock charm so as to not be part of the "RMT" cycle.

Arguing that selling Abj. to other players is RMT is retarded as hell.

You missed the point. Legit players that sell stuff to other legit players = legit. Players that farm sky pop items to sell the drop to people that obviously RMTed the gil to pay for them = not-legit.

Why is this distinction so hard to understand?

I don't agree with selling stuff out of loot pool, but to play Devil's Advocate - how do you know that these people "obviously" RMT'd their gil? "Oh, it's so easy to farm sky, join an endgame shell and get this shit for free." Not everyone has a normal playtime, or a lot of playtime at all. Might be easier for them to just farm the gil when they can play, rather than stress to make linkshell events at times that are inconvenient for them, either to make their presence known for a /point system, or collect attendance for a point system.

That being said, I'm fairly convinced that at least some of the people forking over gil for a Haidate are just lazy fucks who did indeed RMT it - I'm just saying it's not necessarily so black and white. That's like saying anyone with a self-funded relic is a gilbuyer - it's true for some, but not for all.

[hopefulki]

the way i figure, if i farm some item to sell for gil - it is none of my business how the person got the gil, as long as they have it. Selling r/ex to other people is the same as selling any item, just instead of a trade you invite them to party

Take it for what it's worth, but it's the same as in RL - let's say i sell something on ebay and the person who bought my item ripped someone off for that money, it is none of my business how they made the money as long as they pay me and our transaction is complete.

In my experience when you find a good moneymaker, you stick do it and leak it for what it's worth, but that's just me

[Bagel]

The moral of the story: selling stuff for lots of gil is RMT. Selling stuff for not a lot of gil is ok.

[ringthree]

Ring, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you are hurt by people doing ISNMs and ENMs for money.

It is more that you are selling RARE/EX gear.

Personally, I don't care because thats legit player to legit player. I am just talking about the case of selling items to people that have obviously RMTed the gil to buy it. The RMT's did this for cash, Wopa is doing it for Relics. There is no difference.

I covered ever single response that has been made in the second post I made here.

1. Of course their is plausible deniability, but that doesn't matter when you aren't in a court of law.

2. There is indeed a difference between an act of omission (using the AH to buy and sell goods and not knowing how that person obtained their gil) and an act of commission (intentionally farming pop items and soliciting people that you know are paying you in RMT'ed money).

Once you stop flinging insults and start actually answering the issue of someone saying they figured out the game and how to get relics and saying that they "will own" anyone that doesn't agree with them, then we can have a discussion.

And it's not like Wopa figured something new or neat out about the game, he is just copying what the RMT have done for years. If he wanted to say "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" I could even take that, but he is acting like anyone that doesn't buy into his justification for doing what he does is doing it wrong, and thats just bullshit.

[Demosthenes11]

holy shit you ARE retarded

[ringthree]

If you're going to argue that selling haidate/abj is RMT, that means you need to basically watch EVERY thing you ever sell on the AH. If you see that it's RMT that has bought it, you should go to the nearest goblin footprint and trade it the 4,000,000 gil you just got from that peacock charm so as to not be part of the "RMT" cycle.

Arguing that selling Abj. to other players is RMT is retarded as hell.

You missed the point. Legit players that sell stuff to other legit players = legit. Players that farm sky pop items to sell the drop to people that obviously RMTed the gil to pay for them = not-legit.

Why is this distinction so hard to understand?

because there's no distinction, anyone who sells anything is subject to selling to legit players as well as selling to RMT.

Thats like saying there is no distinction between murder and euthanasia or self-defense or any of the other place in the world were we distinguish between moral acts. See again my comment two pages ago about the difference between omission and commission.

[Marius]

If you're going to argue that selling haidate/abj is RMT, that means you need to basically watch EVERY thing you ever sell on the AH. If you see that it's RMT that has bought it, you should go to the nearest goblin footprint and trade it the 4,000,000 gil you just got from that peacock charm so as to not be part of the "RMT" cycle.

Arguing that selling Abj. to other players is RMT is retarded as hell.

You missed the point. Legit players that sell stuff to other legit players = legit. Players that farm sky pop items to sell the drop to people that obviously RMTed the gil to pay for them = not-legit.

Why is this distinction so hard to understand?

because there's no distinction, anyone who sells anything is subject to selling to legit players as well as selling to RMT.

Thats like saying there is no distinction between murder and euthanasia or self-defense or any of the other place in the world were we distinguish between moral acts. See again my comment two pages ago about the difference between omission and commission.

ok we'll if you're that bothered about this just stop selling things on AH, bazzar and trade because u can NEVER be 100% certain the gil wasn't RMT'd(large value items or not)

[Ryko]

If you're going to argue that selling haidate/abj is RMT, that means you need to basically watch EVERY thing you ever sell on the AH. If you see that it's RMT that has bought it, you should go to the nearest goblin footprint and trade it the 4,000,000 gil you just got from that peacock charm so as to not be part of the "RMT" cycle.

Arguing that selling Abj. to other players is RMT is retarded as hell.

You missed the point. Legit players that sell stuff to other legit players = legit. Players that farm sky pop items to sell the drop to people that obviously RMTed the gil to pay for them = not-legit.

Why is this distinction so hard to understand?

because there's no distinction, anyone who sells anything is subject to selling to legit players as well as selling to RMT.

Thats like saying there is no distinction between murder and euthanasia or self-defense or any of the other place in the world were we distinguish between moral acts. See again my comment two pages ago about the difference between omission and commission.

Argument forfeit.

[ringthree]

I don't agree with selling stuff out of loot pool, but to play Devil's Advocate - how do you know that these people "obviously" RMT'd their gil? "Oh, it's so easy to farm sky, join an endgame shell and get this shit for free." Not everyone has a normal playtime, or a lot of playtime at all. Might be easier for them to just farm the gil when they can play, rather than stress to make linkshell events at times that are inconvenient for them, either to make their presence known for a /point system, or collect attendance for a point system.

That being said, I'm fairly convinced that at least some of the people forking over gil for a Haidate are just lazy fucks who did indeed RMT it - I'm just saying it's not necessarily so black and white. That's like saying anyone with a self-funded relic is a gilbuyer - it's true for some, but not for all.

I totally understand what you are getting at here. I can't prove that they weren't legit players, and honestly it would still piss me off that this is how Wopa was getting his gil, but I wouldn't get my panties in a bunch about it. The difference is that Wopa is saying that those people that don't do this are "doing it wrong" and that his ideas "own" everyone else's. They aren't even his ideas, they are the ideas of the RMT, and he just pulled them from there.

It's the proselytizing of this as a brilliant way to get relics quickly, and that we are all dumber for not figuring it out. And it's the same reason that locked people out of Haidates for months when the RMT dominated sky. It's basically the idea that anything I do is ok, because it helps me.

It's definitely not all black and white, never claimed it to be. The problem is what can we justify to ourselves, and at what point do we become no different from the RMT just to get relics?

[ringthree]

If you're going to argue that selling haidate/abj is RMT, that means you need to basically watch EVERY thing you ever sell on the AH. If you see that it's RMT that has bought it, you should go to the nearest goblin footprint and trade it the 4,000,000 gil you just got from that peacock charm so as to not be part of the "RMT" cycle.

Arguing that selling Abj. to other players is RMT is retarded as hell.

You missed the point. Legit players that sell stuff to other legit players = legit. Players that farm sky pop items to sell the drop to people that obviously RMTed the gil to pay for them = not-legit.

Why is this distinction so hard to understand?

because there's no distinction, anyone who sells anything is subject to selling to legit players as well as selling to RMT.

Thats like saying there is no distinction between murder and euthanasia or self-defense or any of the other place in the world were we distinguish between moral acts. See again my comment two pages ago about the difference between omission and commission.

Argument forfeit.

Dammit! >.< Thats one of those internet rules right? Hey, I didn't compare them to Nazis or said they cause the Holocaust! yet ^.^

[layoneil]

Thats like saying there is no distinction between murder and euthanasia or self-defense or any of the other place in the world were we distinguish between moral acts. See again my comment two pages ago about the difference between omission and commission.

holy shit you ARE retarded

furthermore, i have no idea what you're saying.

if you sell Shihei, a legit player can buy it and an RMT player can buy it. you have no idea. as long as you sell it, you run the risk of supplying RMT.
if you sell a Behemoth Hide, a legit player can buy it and an RMT player can buy it. you have no idea. as long as you sell it, you run the risk of supplying RMT.

and here's something else for you to play moral police over.
1) some rich spoiled kid who RMTs with a near infinite allowance.
2) some average chump who work 60 hour weeks and does some RMTing every once in awhile so he doesn't have to farm with the few hours a week he actually plays.
3) a punkass kid that pretends to be a girl and cons people into giving him gil.
4) a punkass kid that stole an LS bank.
5) an admitted botter that tries to MPK people when his LS doesn't get claim.
6) a loser who plays the game 20 hours a day and lives off unemployment checks.

if i were to sell anything and i can choose who i could sell to, my moral compass would very much be 2 > 1 > 6 > 3 > 4/5.

[ringthree]

If you're going to argue that selling haidate/abj is RMT, that means you need to basically watch EVERY thing you ever sell on the AH. If you see that it's RMT that has bought it, you should go to the nearest goblin footprint and trade it the 4,000,000 gil you just got from that peacock charm so as to not be part of the "RMT" cycle.

Arguing that selling Abj. to other players is RMT is retarded as hell.

You missed the point. Legit players that sell stuff to other legit players = legit. Players that farm sky pop items to sell the drop to people that obviously RMTed the gil to pay for them = not-legit.

Why is this distinction so hard to understand?

because there's no distinction, anyone who sells anything is subject to selling to legit players as well as selling to RMT.

Thats like saying there is no distinction between murder and euthanasia or self-defense or any of the other place in the world were we distinguish between moral acts. See again my comment two pages ago about the difference between omission and commission.

ok we'll if you're that bothered about this just stop selling things on AH, bazzar and trade because u can NEVER be 100% certain the gil wasn't RMT'd(large value items or not)

/facepalm

Wow... I can't believe it, but you really just did COMPLETELY miss the point... I have never seen it done so perfectly... just amazing. 10/10! I literally answered your comment, in the post that you quoted!

[layoneil]

They aren't even his ideas, they are the ideas of the RMT, and he just pulled them from there.

legit players were selling Ex items long before there were organized RMT groups.

[Ryko]

and here's something else for you to play moral police over.
1) some rich spoiled kid who RMTs with a near infinite allowance.
2) some average chump who work 60 hour weeks and does some RMTing every once in awhile so he doesn't have to farm with the few hours a week he actually plays.
3) a punkass kid that pretends to be a girl and cons people into giving him gil.
4) a punkass kid that stole an LS bank.
5) an admitted botter that tries to MPK people when his LS doesn't get claim.
6) a loser who plays the game 20 hours a day and lives off unemployment checks.

if i were to sell anything and i can choose who i could sell to, my moral compass would very much be 2 > 1 > 6 > 3 > 4/5.

Poor sath

[ringthree]

Thats like saying there is no distinction between murder and euthanasia or self-defense or any of the other place in the world were we distinguish between moral acts. See again my comment two pages ago about the difference between omission and commission.

holy shit you ARE retarded

furthermore, i have no idea what you're saying.

if you sell Shihei, a legit player can buy it and an RMT player can buy it. you have no idea. as long as you sell it, you run the risk of supplying RMT.
if you sell a Behemoth Hide, a legit player can buy it and an RMT player can buy it. you have no idea. as long as you sell it, you run the risk of supplying RMT.

and here's something else for you to play moral police over.
1) some rich spoiled kid who RMTs with a near infinite allowance.
2) some average chump who work 60 hour weeks and does some RMTing every once in awhile so he doesn't have to farm with the few hours a week he actually plays.
3) a punkass kid that pretends to be a girl and cons people into giving him gil.
4) a punkass kid that stole an LS bank.
5) an admitted botter that tries to MPK people when his LS doesn't get claim.
6) a loser who plays the game 20 hours a day and lives off unemployment checks.

if i were to sell anything and i can choose who i could sell to, my moral compass would very much be 2 > 1 > 6 > 3 > 4/5.

/sigh I will repeat for those that don't understand.

I am saying that there ARE distinctions between putting something on the AH and selling items to people that RMT gil. How is this confusing? (Besides the fact that there is obviously a lack of reading comprehension by several posters?)