Wopa vs. Ringthree: Abj sale is serious business

[Izzy]

I used to be in a LS that didn't camp kings. (I'm still in one.) I camped them when there were only 2 HNMLS on the server and I've paid my dues in Aery. I didn't get a Dalmatica when we killed Nidhogg due to it not dropping very often. Once botting started, we kindly bowed out of Aery and went to Sky almost full time. (This was 2004). Now, I had smithing at 100 and mostly everyone knows that if you had a craft at 100 back then you were pretty rich. Not many people had 100 crafts and it was pretty easy to corner a market. I had 11mil saved up from making random crap and I would go to Aery on high Nidhogg chance days to hopefully buy a Dalmatica from a LS that didn't need it.

Does this mean I was RMT? No, it doesn't. I just no longer had the ability to get the item, and I'm not going to sit in Aery letting my computer play for me for 3 hours a day. I'd show up when I heard it popped, ask in say if they were interested in selling, then leave when they weren't.

Instead I put that 11 mil toward something much more useful like a Mjollnir!

Point is, you can not just say, "If you're selling abjurations, an RMT is buying them." because it's a terrible assumption and simply not always true.

[ringthree]

Guys, guys, guys everyone calm down a minute. I think we're missing Ringthree's point here.

1: Get lucky drops on a KS99 = RMT.
2: Build a LS Strong enough to sell items they don't need = RMT
3: Selling items to fund a relic = RMT.
4: Crafting = RMT
5: Farming = RMT
6: Buying items that you farm the money for because you dont have time otherwise = RMT
7: Doing anything to net some sort of profit = RMT.
8: Any of the "7" above while being named Ringthree = OK ^^

And yeah, typing posts like that, which at their bases are simply flames and not really founded arguments or have any point at all, don't really get anything anywhere and just piss people off more.

Not a flame, it's actually exactly what Ringthree has been saying for most this thread.

Actually, what I was saying was the exact opposite. But hey, who's counting!

[RKenshin]

So basically... If there's an "Ex" symbol on an item, and you attempt to sell it rather than waste it, you're supporting RMT?

I never knew RMT had so much to do with whether an item is exclusive or not.

[Ryko]

1.) Want a Relic.
2.) Have the motivation to fund said Relic.
3.) ???
4.) Profit!


...so what were my options for #3 again besides RMTing it up, having an entire LS blowing me constantly, or being a crafting whore?

Not everything is for everyone.

Not everyone really wants it.

Thanks for agreeing I guess.

No problem. And if I could figure out how to make a Left Pointy Arrow to signify some sort of epic sarcasm, I probably would.

Trust me, I knew your post's intent, the point is if you want it bad enough you will create a means to do so.

[altwight]

I have velocious belt and i still attempt to camp KA due to his cloth drops. Everytime i /shout 'velocious belt do you need it? 7m /tell' people /sh and threaten to GM me as if im doing something wrong. Makes me lol tbh =/

[ringthree]

So basically... If there's an "Ex" symbol on an item, and you attempt to sell it rather than waste it, you're supporting RMT?

I never knew RMT had so much to do with whether an item is exclusive or not.

Never said anything like that, at all, or even close. In fact, I said the exact opposite. Has everyone serious forgotten how to read?

The people that are just piping up now are the ones that didn't read what started this thread. Wopa said that he had a brilliant idea that we all should farm sky pop items, then solicit to sell the drops. I said that since 90% of the people that would accept that deal get their gil from RMT's its not much different than RMT and definitely isn't some kind of brilliant or original idea to fund your relics.

People who can't read but love to bandwagon only saw: Selling gear = RMT. I said legit players selling drops that will rot anyway is perfectly fine, but that was also ignored by the foaming at the mouth masses. Oh well.

[Ryko]

I have velocious belt and i still attempt to camp KA due to his cloth drops. Everytime i /shout 'velocious belt do you need it? 7m /tell' people /sh and threaten to GM me as if im doing something wrong. Makes me lol tbh =/

Honestly that's because you're being a douchey fuck.

[Vedder]

I have velocious belt and i still attempt to camp KA due to his cloth drops. Everytime i /shout 'velocious belt do you need it? 7m /tell' people /sh and threaten to GM me as if im doing something wrong. Makes me lol tbh =/

Sounds like some people think RMT = anything you do that people don't like involving gil. When in reality it means 'Real Money Trade'... otherwise classified as anything involving real money exchanged for gil or items.

Go figure, the concept of 'RMT' is too complex for people to decipher.

[Seraph]

Trust me, I knew your post's intent, the point is if you want it bad enough you will create a means to do so.

Now that I will agree with.

[Vedder]

So basically... If there's an "Ex" symbol on an item, and you attempt to sell it rather than waste it, you're supporting RMT?

I never knew RMT had so much to do with whether an item is exclusive or not.

Never said anything like that, at all, or even close. In fact, I said the exact opposite. Has everyone serious forgotten how to read?

If you cared enough that you were getting your message across, you wouldn't rely solely on people's ability to read across multiply posts on multiply pages and piece together your overarching message.

So why don't you restate for the record in one post wtf your position is instead of trying to save face when people mock you?

[Stolin]

I said that since 90% of the people that would accept that deal get their gil from RMT's

evidence plz, evidence!

[Lordender]

As douche baggery as selling rare/ex items may be, its still legal until SE says otherwise. I would blame SE for making this game way too easy to grief play/cockblock players rather than blamming people who take advantage of real poor game design.

[RKenshin]

Never said anything like that, at all, or even close. In fact, I said the exact opposite. Has everyone serious forgotten how to read?

No, you did as an implication. This is exactly what is implied by:

I am saying that there ARE distinctions between putting something on the AH and selling items to people that RMT gil.

That, in the context of this discussion.

Because frankly, as people have said over and over and over, there's no way to tell whether the people you're selling items to through AH or Bazaar or other means are RMTers. But in that sentence you're generalizing that people that sell items through methods other than the AH are selling directly to people that RMT gil. Which is impossible to tell in the first place, no matter how you sell an item. And is just as likely to happen with an AH item or bazaar item as it is for an Ex item.

The stuff people have repeated over and over again aside, this is my point:

What you're saying is that you're more directly involved in supporting RMT if you do it one method, because of uncontrollable limitations of item trade-ability/AH-ability. And using this as a fault of not the item, but the people even though they have no control over what is Ex or not. Hence:

So basically... If there's an "Ex" symbol on an item, and you attempt to sell it rather than waste it, you're supporting RMT?

Perhaps better phrased as: "So basically... If there's an "Ex" symbol on an item, and you attempt to sell it rather than waste it, you're supporting RMT more than if you sold an equal amount (in cost and benefit) of valuable items on AH?"

[Vistani]

I think ringthree should quit ffxi so he's not supporting RMT by being part of the system.

[Stolin]

I think ringthree should quit ffxi so he's not supporting RMT by being part of the system.

I think he should just be more open minded, and give in less to his prejudices ;p.

[tymora]

I think the general consensus is that "No questions asked on who is buying/selling" is the norm. It takes too much pointless effort to investigate and no one can escape having traded with some RMT before, be it on "omission" or "commission".

My LS sells rare/ex items (See numerous happy mnks) but I limited the activities to instanced events like Ouryu/Bahamut/KS99 due partly to consideration for others and due partly to lack of time to organize too many things.

Wop has no consideration for others and that is one of the reasons why he pissed off a lot of people. But that is also the reason why his LS is technically the top-earner on the server.

Oh and I am not looking to start new drama. Wop can think of this as a complement.

Salvage is the next niche market to consider especially SE loves giving the same group of people 10 Deimos and no Macha when 10 people need Macha and 0 people need Deimos. There are only so many people in a group that need them.

/toss? Why not sell? And when you sell? Of course it would be the highest bidder! Why settle for anything less? So if the bidder seems to be a gil-buyer? Can I prove it? Chances are I can't so close an eye and get the gil. No questions asked. It's only human.

I'll leave it up to SE to handle the RMT issues.

[Sho]

Hey, if selling EX items gets you the gil, more powa to ya. It's not RMT until the gil is sold for real life currency anyways. Not really a hard concept-- some people simply would rather take a means of purchasing an item, rather than wait weeks/months in a lot ordered line before they get their shit. Even tho Wop can come off as a douche with some of his posts, he's right; it's all about work hard or work smart in the end.

[ringthree]

Never said anything like that, at all, or even close. In fact, I said the exact opposite. Has everyone serious forgotten how to read?

No, you did as an implication. This is exactly what is implied by:

I am saying that there ARE distinctions between putting something on the AH and selling items to people that RMT gil.

That, in the context of this discussion.

Because frankly, as people have said over and over and over, there's no way to tell whether the people you're selling items to through AH or Bazaar or other means are RMTers. But in that sentence you're generalizing that people that sell items through methods other than the AH are selling directly to people that RMT gil. Which is impossible to tell in the first place, no matter how you sell an item. And is just as likely to happen with an AH item or bazaar item as it is for an Ex item.

The stuff people have repeated over and over again aside, this is my point:

What you're saying is that you're more directly involved in supporting RMT if you do it one method, because of uncontrollable limitations of item trade-ability/AH-ability. And using this as a fault of not the item, but the people even though they have no control over what is Ex or not. Hence:

So basically... If there's an "Ex" symbol on an item, and you attempt to sell it rather than waste it, you're supporting RMT?

Perhaps better phrased as: "So basically... If there's an "Ex" symbol on an item, and you attempt to sell it rather than waste it, you're supporting RMT more than if you sold an equal amount (in cost and benefit) of valuable items on AH?"

No, that is no what I said at all, that is your inference and yours alone. And I am actually quite surprised that you don't get it. You have no control over your purchases on the AH or who you sell to, there is an intermediary that resolves moral conflicts. This is VASTLY different that intentionally farming pop items then soliciting people to pay for specific drops when these people have a better than 90% of purchasing the gil to pay you.

I am not surprised that the nuisances of the argument are lost on the "If its not good, it must be bad" bandwagon, but honestly, I thought someone would have picked up on it, because essentially those that say there are no distinctions between the AH and taking that gil like Wopa does are essentially saying its perfectly fine to BUY GIL, because thats just one more distinction that "doesn't really exist".

[XxSlusherxx]

Seriously, can you even read? I answered this already

You missed the point. Legit players that sell stuff to other legit players = legit. Players that farm sky pop items to sell the drop to people that obviously RMTed the gil to pay for them = not-legit.

Why is this distinction so hard to understand?

I covered ever single response that has been made in the second post I made here.

See again my comment two pages ago about the difference between omission and commission.

Wow... I can't believe it, but you really just did COMPLETELY miss the point...

/sigh I will repeat for those that don't understand.

When you find yourself asking questions like this over and over(yes these are all from seprate posts). Then I think perhaps it is you who isn't reading and/or understanding the posts inbetween. I shall 'cliff notes' the last few pages for you, at least as I understand it,

We understand your point, we do not agree.

[ringthree]

Seriously, can you even read? I answered this already

You missed the point. Legit players that sell stuff to other legit players = legit. Players that farm sky pop items to sell the drop to people that obviously RMTed the gil to pay for them = not-legit.

Why is this distinction so hard to understand?

I covered ever single response that has been made in the second post I made here.

See again my comment two pages ago about the difference between omission and commission.

Wow... I can't believe it, but you really just did COMPLETELY miss the point...

/sigh I will repeat for those that don't understand.

When you find yourself asking questions like this over and over(yes these are all from seprate posts). Then I think perhaps it is you who isn't reading and/or understanding the posts inbetween. I shall 'cliff notes' the last few pages for you, at least as I understand it,

We understand your point, we do not agree.

I have no problem with disagreement, and I have noted that with the few that actually commented directly to what I was saying. The people that missed the point were trying to ascribe to me a defense of the idea that anything you do is RMT. I never said that, or anything close. If people would stop saying that I was trying to say that anything in the game was RMT then that would be fine. But if you really do understand what I was saying (even if you disagree) you can look back at the last 4 pages and see just how many people just didn't get it.