DA in WS & Gorget Acc Tests

[ismarc]

The cap is 8 swings in a round, meaning a miss still counts.

That doesn't answer my question.

Is the 8 cap in Asuran Fists calculated after all other modifiers in the weapon skill are factored in or is it a set cap during the calculation of the weapon skill that is impassable even if it is mid-formula?

It doesn't matter. There is a hard cap of 8 swings (hits or misses). The process could be "swing 1, does it da? swing 2, does it da? swing n, does it da?" and you will still never have more than 8 SWINGS (HITS OR MISSES). It will never go "Oh, you double attacked on every swing but missed half, so we'll keep the hits." It is not a cap on Asuran Fists in particular, but a hard cap in the game.

[Sekkite]

The cap is 8 swings in a round, meaning a miss still counts.

That doesn't answer my question.

Is the 8 cap in Asuran Fists calculated after all other modifiers in the weapon skill are factored in or is it a set cap during the calculation of the weapon skill that is impassable even if it is mid-formula?

It doesn't matter. There is a hard cap of 8 swings (hits or misses). The process could be "swing 1, does it da? swing 2, does it da? swing n, does it da?" and you will still never have more than 8 SWINGS (HITS OR MISSES). It will never go "Oh, you double attacked on every swing but missed half, so we'll keep the hits." It is not a cap on Asuran Fists in particular, but a hard cap in the game.

No, logically speaking it should use what the overall value is, I.E. if it missed on swing 7 and double attacked on swing 8, the output of the weapon skill would be 8 swings.

I'm just wondering if this is actually the case. If so, double attack gear may act as a pseudo form of accuacy.

Ismarc, I know that the weapon skill can never go above 8 hits and you seem to keep answering a question I am not asking.

[Max™]

Easy way to think about it.

Dancing Edge is 5 hits +1 offhand hit, if you proc a triple attack, you hit the 8 swings cap, and cannot proc a double on the offhand, or another triple.

Asuran hits the 8 round cap, and cannot proc a double on the main or offhand.

Doubles, I would assume, are calculated near the end of an attack round, since you can have certain double procs stack with each other (native DA+Jailer weapon) and get multiples during a WS.

Since the game would already have factored in the amount of swings from the Asuran WS as 8, it wouldn't count any doubles, even if there were missed hits.

I BELIEVE this was shown using the hard cap on Accuracy, the statistical chance of landing all 8 hits at said cap, and what effect double should have on it.

[ismarc]

The cap is 8 swings in a round, meaning a miss still counts.

That doesn't answer my question.

Is the 8 cap in Asuran Fists calculated after all other modifiers in the weapon skill are factored in or is it a set cap during the calculation of the weapon skill that is impassable even if it is mid-formula?

It doesn't matter. There is a hard cap of 8 swings (hits or misses). The process could be "swing 1, does it da? swing 2, does it da? swing n, does it da?" and you will still never have more than 8 SWINGS (HITS OR MISSES). It will never go "Oh, you double attacked on every swing but missed half, so we'll keep the hits." It is not a cap on Asuran Fists in particular, but a hard cap in the game.

No, logically speaking it should use what the overall value is, I.E. if it missed on swing 7 and double attacked on swing 8, the output of the weapon skill would be 8 swings.

I'm just wondering if this is actually the case. If so, double attack gear may act as a pseudo form of accuacy.

Ismarc, I know that the weapon skill can never go above 8 hits and you seem to keep answering a question I am not asking.

It's not that the ws can never go above 8 HITS. The ws can never go above 8 SWINGS, hits or misses. The logic stops once it hits that cap of 8. How it reaches the cap of 8 is inconsequential. The game calculates the accuracy and damage of each swing in a weaponskill and the damage (or lack thereof for misses), applying any WS modifiers to the first hit of the WS. It does not distinguish between misses and hits with regards to determining the total possible swings in an attack action. You cannot, say, attack something with a KC and miss several swings, but double attack to make up the misses, it calculates the attack round and gives you the first 8 swings. The misses count as swings as well. "Multi-hit" weaponskills are not truly "Multi-hit." They are "Multi-Swing"...it guarantees nothing.

I use the term "swing" to indicate an "attack" of the weapon a single time. I use the term "hit" to indicate a swing had the accuracy to strike the foe and cause the game to generate a damage value. I use the term "miss" to indicate a swing did not have the accuracy to strike a foe and never generated a damage value.

I understand what you are asking, but the words you are using do not describe what you want. What you are asking is:
Does the game calculate the full round of attacks and then ignore everything over 8 swings or does it process up to 8 swings and then stop?
The way multi-swing weaponskills are calculated is what you're forgetting. WS Modifiers only apply to the first hit of the weaponskill. This strongly infers that it calculates hit chance of the first hit, applies modifiers to that hit, then performs the attack for each subsequent attack in the weaponskill. This means that it would simply stop once it hit a total of 8 swings, regardless of other outcomes. It makes 0 sense from a coding perspective to calculate more swings than is possible in one round of attacks (or weaponskill).

[Ferien]

I BELIEVE this was shown using the hard cap on Accuracy, the statistical chance of landing all 8 hits at said cap, and what effect double should have on it.

Can be easily seen while dual-wielding a KC. You'll never see more than 8 swings in a round, no matter what. If KC is in your main hand and procs an 8 (whether those swings miss or not), the other weapon won't even swing. It's made even more apparent with another multihit weapon, as the total of all swings in the round will never surpass 8, no matter how often the weapon can potentially swing.

[RKenshin]

Also:

6~5 hit returns
31~4 hit returns
58~3 hit returns

3~5 hit returns
26~4 hit returns
57~3 hit returns

I count 56+(18 triple) Doubles, not factoring the doubles which were missed and wound up as 3 hit returns out of 200 WSes?

3 Hit is normal, you didn't count this as Vorpal and 4 hit did you?

Also: I'm one of those crazy weird people with only one job, just don't care for any others.

I wasn't counting the number of DA's from all 200 WS, I was only counting for 100 WS in the first batch. The whole point I was making is that in the first test, it's impossible to tell if you DA'd more or missed more hits than you did in the second batch. Because in the first one, you only know for certain that you DA'd 41 times. Which is less than what is to be expected.

So no, there isn't a mistake.

And, I could've sworn you had DRK leveled... I must've been thinking of someone else, probably the other Max.

The cap is 8 swings in a round, meaning a miss still counts.

That doesn't answer my question.

Is the 8 cap in Asuran Fists calculated after all other modifiers in the weapon skill are factored in or is it a set cap during the calculation of the weapon skill that is impassable even if it is mid-formula?

It doesn't matter. There is a hard cap of 8 swings (hits or misses). The process could be "swing 1, does it da? swing 2, does it da? swing n, does it da?" and you will still never have more than 8 SWINGS (HITS OR MISSES). It will never go "Oh, you double attacked on every swing but missed half, so we'll keep the hits." It is not a cap on Asuran Fists in particular, but a hard cap in the game.

No, logically speaking it should use what the overall value is, I.E. if it missed on swing 7 and double attacked on swing 8, the output of the weapon skill would be 8 swings.

I'm just wondering if this is actually the case. If so, double attack gear may act as a pseudo form of accuacy.

Ismarc, I know that the weapon skill can never go above 8 hits and you seem to keep answering a question I am not asking.

A few MNKs and Nagamaki in particular ran a test of a rather significant sample size, and there were no real parsed differences from the accuracy as MNK/WAR and MNK/NIN on ~T mobs. As long as that's true, it would mean that you can't DA in Asuran.

And, even if you could DA in the middle of the WS going through hits it would have absolutely no effect on accuracy as long as the 8-hit/round cap is in place. It does not matter at all to any extent, if in the first 6 hits of Asuran you DA'd twice. No matter what and no matter how many times you would DA or TA, it would stop at 8 swings. Whether or not those 8 swings are made up of WS swings or DA swings would make no difference, and whether or not you could DA would make no difference. It's always 8 swings, whether or not they all miss or all land or are DAs or whatever.

[Sekkite]

Ahhh, alright. I misunderstood what was said earlier, my mistake.

[Max™]

rofl@Rukeshet confusing someone with someone else, now THAT's comedy.

How many DA's should I have expected out of 100 WSes? 43 Isn't a lot?

[RKenshin]

100 WS, 300 swings, 66 (22x3) expected DA. After factoring your theoretical accuracy and just going under the assumption it caps at 2, this is about 57 DA hits expected over 100 WS from combined 1x DAs and 2x DAs.

[Liquidedust]

rofl@Rukeshet confusing someone with someone else, now THAT's comedy.

How many DA's should I have expected out of 100 WSes? 43 Isn't a lot?

Unless my head is horribly sluggish and (my math is) wrong atm the chance of -not- seeing a DA on a 3-hit WS with 22% DA is roughly 47.5%, so by that standard you should have seen 50-53 DAs over 100 WS's (correct me if I am wrong here). So your DA rate appears somewhat low, or rather it is 18-20% lower then expected (which is far from standard deviation).

100 WS, 300 swings, 66 (22x3) expected DA. After factoring your theoretical accuracy and just going under the assumption it caps at 2, this is about 57 DA hits expected over 100 WS from combined 1x DAs and 2x DAs.

Gah math, am I counting backwards here or something RK . . . (head no coffee don't think straight).

[ninjafox]

Rukeshet =/= Rkenshin

[Max™]

Rukeshet, Rykonshin, same difference.

I have a question related to the DA rate.

Does the total acc/number of DA's for the Gorget Test, and the total acc/number of DA's for no Neck not further suggest a certain amount of accuracy?

I can't get over having 5% more Accuracy over the 100 Tests seeming too close to the 10 Acc I've heard attributed to Gorgets at various times.

If it was only affecting the first hit, and ignoring the issue of DA's for a second, wouldn't it have only been like 2% more hits?

[Ferien]

So my acc is easily capped on the Eldieme Fortification. Naked-time to attempt to rectify the situation.