15 year old gay kid, killed

[Beckwin]

Shooting her would still be fucked up, and you making the same position that she shouldn't have replied to hateful remarks at all, because she got shot for it even though the possibility of it actually happening is ridiculously small, would still be laughable.

[Tyche]

Black people should have to pay a 5 dollar surcharge at the door for movie tickets, and white males should get a 5 dollar off coupon. It's the fucking black people that are the cause of theaters hiring so much security and so many janitors to pick up all that fucking mess. Drives me crazy.

[Deejay]

Shooting her would still be fucked up, and you making the same position that she shouldn't have replied to hateful remarks at all, because she got shot for it even though the possibility of it actually happening is ridiculously small, would still be laughable.

Shot? Yes. Physically hurt? Is that really out of the realm of possibility if he's trying to flirt with them?

[Beckwin]

In case it's not coming across, I'm 100% blaming the parents.

wait, exactly whose fucking parents are you blaming?

the ones who let their kid walk out the door in drag or the ones who who raised an intolerant brute with a misunderstanding/confusion about masculinity and allowed him to attain a firearm?

please please pick the sensible answer.

[Beckwin]

Shooting her would still be fucked up, and you making the same position that she shouldn't have replied to hateful remarks at all, because she got shot for it even though the possibility of it actually happening is ridiculously small, would still be laughable.

Shot? Yes. Physically hurt? Is that really out of the realm of possibility if he's trying to flirt with them?

kids fist-fighting over verbal conflicts generally doesn't make the news. and it's not rare for kids to risk saying something even if they think someone might fight with them over it. getting shot, at school, for it is a whole other story.

[Remyo]

Black people should have to pay a 5 dollar surcharge at the door for movie tickets, and white males should get a 5 dollar off coupon. It's the fucking black people that are the cause of theaters hiring so much security and so many janitors to pick up all that fucking mess. Drives me crazy.

I agree, in fact, we should have separate theaters

[BerenTebogo]

Violence? Believe I already stated I'm pretty laid back, and I'm not quick to anger either, I may dish out a quick, stinging retort, hell I may even press the caps lock key for added effect, but it's rare anything other than blatant, repeated, belligerent idiocy in the face of rationality that gets me going. That and I have a thing for extremely drunk guys getting too hands-on with women, I won't stand for that, period.

If you want to cite me for the latter, be my guest.

Edit: and for the record, most of the time as I'm writing my "BIG ANGRY RANTS" I'm actually doing so with a smile on my face or laughing, it's all in good fun for me, there are a few people I genuinely don't like but that's normal.

I would have beat him rotten.

should he have had his clock cleaned? Yeah,

Beat your kids

I've gotten my ass kicked and I've kicked ass,

I know the last one may not seem so bad but, there are plenty of people who go their entire lives never getting into fights. I'm not going to bother going further than this post for quotes.

The first two I was merely stating my perspective as if I was 13, as I'm pretty sure was the normal perspective for 13 year old males, at least the ones I knew, so again, it's context.

And yes, I think a firm 'dope-slap' is a good parental technique, if you have a well-behaved child and your child grows up and becomes a person who never gets in a fight, awesome, I support whatever parenting techniques you used. I feel physical punishment should be held for, as an example, catching your 13 year old kid stealing alcohol from you, which isn't uncommon these days.

Maybe my first post made my intent seem too inflammatory, that's not my intent. It's my belief that some actions need more parental involvement than being grounded to your room where you have a PS3 and a Xbox360, and some actions, as I've seen from a current trend as of late, warrant further interaction, slapping your kid upside the head and putting him out in the yard because they spilled milk is not what I'm getting at, doing it because they're a spoiled rotten brat or because they were suspended from school for smoking / drinking / etc is what I'm getting at.

I've seen far too many examples of kids going around terrorizing people, getting wasted, and being brought home to their parents by police only to receive a brief lecture and a curfeiw for a week, this to me, is wrong.

[BerenTebogo]

In case it's not coming across, I'm 100% blaming the parents.

wait, exactly whose fucking parents are you blaming?

the ones who let their kid walk out the door in drag or the ones who who raised an intolerant brute with a misunderstanding/confusion about masculinity and allowed him to attain a firearm?

please please pick the sensible answer.

I think both sets of parents fucked up, in their own way. There's a time in a place to dress in drag if the kid really wants to, school is not for that, he should've been taught that. I think the kid who had a parenting situation so lax he was able to bring a gun to school is morally outrageous, but if you can tell me, without a shadow of a doubt, that at 13 you could've appropriately handled sexual advances from another boy, well, I will say that you sir, are a better man than I.

I don't think that there are many parents who would address, with their 13 year old boy, how to deal with such a thing. Maybe they should, I don't know.

[Shade]

I'm usually a fairly jaded wanderer of the internet, but for some reason I'm floored by many of the attitudes in this thread (mostly those on the first page). It's not that it's worse than many of the attitudes in other threads on this forum, but for some reason I didn't expect it from this situation. Kudos to Kuya, Tonko, and Lexa though, for your excellent and reasonable replies (maybe one or two others that I missed).


Maybe fighting back, even in a non-violent way, was not "smart", but that doesn't mean it wasn't still the right thing to do. It is often, in fact, very hard to do the right thing.

Maybe it wasn't "smart" for him to dress how he did, or act how he did. Maybe it isn't "smart" for women to wear revealing clothing if they don't want to get raped or harassed. Maybe it isn't "smart" for black people to act like they expect the treatment of an equal, in certain parts of certain places. But what is WRONG with doing it? Nothing. People shouldn't be in fear of their safety, for being themselves, in a way that harms absolutely no one. What does it say about our society, that they should have to?

Unfortunately, we don't live in a Utopian society where all of this applies. People shouldn't be afraid for being themselves, but they should have an awareness of how they will come across to others and know how to properly handle the situation when you get the bad apples of society to provoke you. Black people are usually well educated on how to handle racists (in most cases, maybe a black person can inform me if they know how to handle racism at 15, I'd assume their parents educated them well before they entered junior high), women are well-educated on how to handle drunk males at a bar, and gay guys should be educated on how to handle hecklers before they go out in heels and a dress. Now obviously, you can't stop the extreme like hate crimes against blacks, abduction/rape of females, and shooting someone in the head for being gay, but you should educate yourself as best as possible to avoid potential escalating situations. I just don't think he handled the bullying well. I don't know if you read the actual article (not just Kuya's cliffnotes), you'd get the impression that this was reoccurring, and through other kid's accounts, all parties involved seemed to have a firm grasp on the situation. We act like being gay and 15 is an automatic exclusion from being prone to making poor decisions. I'm sorry, this isn't the case. Yeah, he died, it's a terrible tragedy, but just because he died and he's gay doesn't mean he isn't at or below the same maturity level of his provokers (I'm trying hard to separate the bullying from the shooting here, the shooting is inexcusable). I'm not trying to diminish the tragedy or the shooting what-so-ever, I'm just trying to show that just because a kid died, and he's gay does not give him a pass. Sorry.

Take out the gay from the story and just say "One kid was bullied, he bullied back, he got shot". We'd all agree noone handled the situation properly.

The problem I have with this attitude is that it shifts the blame for the situation onto the victim, when it should rest squarely on the head of the person who started harassing him for his appearance/identity, and then, when he retaliated in a non violent way, -shot him twice in the back of the head-.

The other problem, is the evidence of this attitude at work in the bigger picture. Behavior of individuals is governed by the pressures of their community as a whole. What is considered appropriate. Our society fails to disapprove (as much as it should) of the gay-hating bullying behavior, and instead counsels those who might get beat up or shot to hide who they are, because it's the smart thing to do. Why should the victim, or the victim's parents be to blame for him dressing the way he does, shouldn't the blame rest on those who failed to teach the bully not be an asshole, and the bully for BEING an asshole?

[Beckwin]

In case it's not coming across, I'm 100% blaming the parents.

wait, exactly whose fucking parents are you blaming?

the ones who let their kid walk out the door in drag or the ones who who raised an intolerant brute with a misunderstanding/confusion about masculinity and allowed him to attain a firearm?

please please pick the sensible answer.

I think both sets of parents fucked up, in their own way. There's a time in a place to dress in drag if the kid really wants to, school is not for that, he should've been taught that. I think the kid who had a parenting situation so lax he was able to bring a gun to school is morally outrageous, but if you can tell me, without a shadow of a doubt, that at 13 you could've appropriately handled sexual advances from another boy, well, I will say that you sir, are a better man than I.

I don't think that there are many parents who would address, with their 13 year old boy, how to deal with such a thing. Maybe they should, I don't know.

I'm 100% confident that I wouldn't have found a gun to shoot a boy who made a sexual advance toward me- or in this case, told me that he liked me.

The fact that you'd put any sort of blame on this death on the parents who let their kid dress different is a fucking joke. Should I make a caps filled rant about your raging idiocy now or just find a child to beat?

[BerenTebogo]

I think it's morally disgusting that you think middle school is the correct time and place to expose your child's personal choices, to dress like a woman, to a school full of other children who may not understand it.

And I'm not talking about finding a gun and shooting him, but I would've felt incredibly uncomfortable and I can't say for certain I wouldn't have pushed him and said 'get the fuck away from me'

Rant away, I generally think you're a gung-ho libertarian who thinks everyone who isn't made of sunshine and lollipops is wrong, if you want to live in your utopian fantasy, be my guest, want to yell at me about it too? Go for it, I enjoy a good laugh.

[Kuya]

I think it's morally disgusting that you think middle school is the correct time and place to expose your child's personal choices, to dress like a woman, to a school full of other children who may not understand it.

And I'm not talking about finding a gun and shooting him, but I would've felt incredibly uncomfortable and I can't say for certain I wouldn't have pushed him and said 'get the fuck away from me'

Rant away, I generally think you're a gung-ho libertarian who thinks everyone who isn't made of sunshine and lollipops is wrong, if you want to live in your utopian fantasy, be my guest, want to yell at me about it too? Go for it, I enjoy a good laugh.

[Tyche]

You seem to think I'm placing all the blame on the gay kid, I'm not. I'm saying he did not help the situation at all in the way he acted. Reread my posts, I blame both parties. It only took one of them to do the right thing, and a life may have been saved. Instaed, they both were immature in their actions and now we have a dead child.

I'd be pretty damn confident you wouldn't feel so strongly if the kid wasn't gay and he was just bullying back. I'm not doing the gay kid an injustice by assuming he gets a pass on frivelous behavior just because he's gay. It's doing him a disservice to assume he's in some lesser mindset, scared, socially alienated, etc when the story doesn't reflect anything close to that.

[BerenTebogo]

You seem to think I'm placing all the blame on the gay kid, I'm not. I'm saying he did not help the situation at all in the way he acted. Reread my posts, I blame both parties. It only took one of them to do the right thing, and a life may have been saved. Instaed, they both were immature in their actions and now we have a dead child.

I'd be pretty damn confident you wouldn't feel so strongly if the kid wasn't gay and he was just bullying back. I'm not doing the gay kid an injustice by assuming he gets a pass on frivelous behavior just because he's gay. It's doing him a disservice to assume he's in some lesser mindset, scared, socially alienated, etc when the story doesn't reflect anything close to that.

I agree with this, and I don't normally agree with tyche's views on politics and society I do here. The fact that two very different people, who don't usually agree, are mirroring each others' points means a lot more to me than two people who always stand up and shout from the mountain on the same side of every story.

I feel validated that some 'hick' (no offense intended) and some 'yankee' can see eye to eye on this, and realize both parties had their hands in it.

Tyche, if I'm putting words in your mouth just say so.

[Kuya]

I'd be pretty damn confident you wouldn't feel so strongly if the kid wasn't gay and he was just bullying back. I'm not doing the gay kid an injustice by assuming he gets a pass on frivelous behavior just because he's gay.

Not to mention you also make assumptions that perhaps he wasn't in fact efeminate, just the same as a heterosexual can be efeminate but not homosexual.

No, actually.

[Tyche]

Well, I can't stay awake to reply any longer, but I know a lot disagree with me, so I'll gloss back over this tomorrow so the berating of my opinion may continue then.

[Beckwin]

I think it's morally disgusting that you think middle school is the correct time and place to expose your child's personal choices, to dress like a woman, to a school full of other children who may not understand it.

And I'm not talking about finding a gun and shooting him, but I would've felt incredibly uncomfortable and I can't say for certain I wouldn't have pushed him and said 'get the fuck away from me'

Rant away, I generally think you're a gung-ho libertarian who thinks everyone who isn't made of sunshine and lollipops is wrong, if you want to live in your utopian fantasy, be my guest, want to yell at me about it too? Go for it, I enjoy a good laugh.

yeah, let's just repress our children and have them follow outdated codes of conduct until... high school? great thinking.

kids getting bullied in middle school isn't news. kids getting shot for being gay is. learn the goddam difference. this isn't some kid getting pushed into a locker or beat up at lunch, this is someone being brutally murdered for who he is. this is different from trickle-down gang violence (which is terrible as well, but highly differing in motivation/circumstance).

I'm a libertarian now? lololol. I'll just laugh at your last paragraph on the account of you having not read the latest guartz thread or tbh paying attention to any of my political posts.

[Beckwin]

The fact that two very different people, who don't usually agree, are mirroring each others' points means a lot more to me than two people who always stand up and shout from the mountain on the same side of every story.

I feel validated that some 'hick' (no offense intended) and some 'yankee' can see eye to eye on this, and realize both parties had their hands in it.

oh jesus shut the fuck up.

[BerenTebogo]

I don't read guartz threads for a reason, that being because guartz makes them.

And yeah, I'm sick of arguing, since you will never convince me that your view on this is correct, and I'll never convince you that mine is, so what are we going to do spend the next 3 hours citing barely relevant examples and subtly insulting each other? I'll pass.

I think bottom line, there isn't a right or wrong side of this. A kid died, it's a tragedy, I'm not going to belittle it any further by assuming my opinion on it is some letter of the law written by god. I have my opinions, you have yours, how about we do the adult thing and just concede the point on the ground of irresolvable differences.

Edit: Sounds like you're getting a bit angry over there partner, wouldn't want you getting intolerant of my opinions now.

[Remyo]

Edit: Sounds like you're getting a bit angry over there partner, wouldn't want you getting intolerant of my opinions now.

unpossible, beckwin and kuya shit fucking rainbows and tolerance!