15 year old gay kid, killed

[Beckwin]

Then shouldn't you maybe be talking about... guns?

please don't make this a gun control debate, guns are not the issue.

A boy is able to execute another boy in the middle of a classroom in a matter of seconds, and guns magically aren't an issue at all.

Please.

The ease with which he was able to obtain a gun is an issue, but ...well, that's an issue of whoever's gun he used, and that individual making it available to him.

However, the idea that one kid wanted to kill another because the first expressed his feelings (or mocked) him seems to be a bigger deal here.

The ease that guns provide in taking out aggression can easily be argued to bypass some factors that would otherwise cause restraint to take over. Not saying he definitely wouldn't have wanted to kill the boy gun or not, but whether he'd be able to (physically and mentally) is questionable.

[archibaldcrane]

It all was an issue, one wouldn't have been a major problem without the other.

I guess that's just a difference of opinion. I see the extremely routine and overlooked lack of tolerance and bullying of LGBT students in schools to be a major problem.

[Koga]

It all was an issue, one wouldn't have been a major problem without the other.

I guess that's just a difference of opinion. I see the extremely routine and overlooked lack of tolerance and bullying of LGBT students in schools to be a major problem.

It is a problem... but if the kid didn't have a gun whats the worst he could do? Beat the kid? At least then he would have a chance to survive and live with some medical attention.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

It all was an issue, one wouldn't have been a major problem without the other.

I guess that's just a difference of opinion. I see the extremely routine and overlooked lack of tolerance and bullying of LGBT students in schools to be a major problem.

It absolutely is, but if we're talking about this event and not using it as a springboard for other issues, it is clear that both the gun and the homosexual intolerance together were what caused this travesty.

[Stumblingdrunk]

However, the idea that one kid wanted to kill another because the first expressed his feelings (or mocked) him seems to be a bigger deal here.

Exactly.

Have any of you seen "Bowling for Columbine"? One of the things in the film that i found most interesting/disturbing was something that seems to be endemic to all of these conversations. Michael Moore spent a significant amount of time within the film trying to show that the availability of firearms has no correlation to the likelihood of violence. He then goes on to try and provide a theory as to why we as a country seem to be predisposed to violence. He follows this up by chasing around and chastising the NRA and and the retail outlet that provided the ammunition (i think it was the ammunition). After his own admission that the availability of firearms is seemingly a non issue he continued his fight against the NRA regardless.

The kids at Columbine had homemade bombs that went unused because they were too busy playing with their guns. Timothy McVeigh did not kill 168 people with a firearm. If we want to kill each other taking away our guns will not deter us.

[Stumblingdrunk]

It all was an issue, one wouldn't have been a major problem without the other.

I guess that's just a difference of opinion. I see the extremely routine and overlooked lack of tolerance and bullying of LGBT students in schools to be a major problem.

It is a problem... but if the kid didn't have a gun whats the worst he could do? Beat the kid? At least then he would have a chance to survive and live with some medical attention.

Because no one has ever been beaten to death...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard

[archibaldcrane]

I'm not arguing here, the idea that adults who own handguns don't take every precaution to keep them out of the hands of kids makes me sick. I grew up around guns, took hunter safety classes, and learned to respect a firearm, which most people don't understand. People who are sloppy with their guns make me sick, and this murderer should've not been able to get a gun so easily, he was 14 years old.

[Kuya]

I find it ironic, that those who say they agree with me in so far as that the intolerance, fervant adherence to social norms, and homphobia are the innate causes of this event, also go on and say that guns are an equally important issue within this argument. As if eliminating guns eliminates the hatred that exists. Do not bring a gun debate in here, as the same way others tried to inject an argument about dress codes and whether one should retaliate agaisnt ones tormenters tried to do, which will only divert attention away from the core issue.

I will rape you just as much as i did everyone else who tried the dress code/Ghandi bullshit in here.

[Beckwin]

Yes Kuya, it's clearly so cut and dry. There's absolutely only one issue at hand here- people not being comfortable with everyone else's sexuality. The fact that it was in a school and with a gun? Who cares. Even though the gun makes a difference in the thought process leading to the action- fuck it.

Don't go preaching about open-mindedness then isolate everything possible to your pet natural-acceptance issue.

[Deejay]

Agreeing with Kuya on that topic. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. If our society didn't raise children to be so against homosexuals (especially at that age, when boys are just learning *how* to be men) then this would have never happened. People don't fucking shoot each other in the back of the head because it's cloudy outside. There has to be a particularly strong motive...

And what is having stricter gun laws going to do? It's not going to magically delete all the guns that are out on the streets/in circulation anyway. Like people were saying earlier, if a person wants to obtain a gun it's really not that hard.

Why don't people try to fix the things that we actively have control over. Perhaps creating a social standard that puts a high value on tolerance? I mean, isn't America the "melting pot" anyway? You'd think our schools/social system could have prevented this long ago with a little more education.

[Talus]

It's hard to think about this situation without knowing the entire story. Is it tragic that a young man's life is cut down by an irrational peer bearing irrational fears? Yes. There is more than one life ruined in this sad affair, both boys and their families.

I don't think the gay kid had it coming, and surely there is a better way of dealing with unwanted romantic attention than resorting to violence. Did he egg the other kid on, or was it a series of events that led to it? Most likely. I have some experience with this, but when it happened to me, it was pre-Matthew Shepard. There was a guy in my Latin IV class in 11th grade who was a senior, and somehow he managed to find my unlisted number, maybe from a mutual friend, and called me up. This is how the conversation went:

Him: "Hi. I just wanted you to know that I really like you. I don't know what you think about that or what you think about me, or what you'll say, but I had to get it off my chest. I think you're great."
Me: "Well, A____, I'm flattered. I don't know what to say. I know it took a lot of courage to call me though, and I'm sorry to tell you that I like women, and I always have. If I misled you, I apologize. I hope we can still be friends."
Him: "No, you didn't lead me on or anything. It's okay, I figured as much."

Then we just talked about class, what was going on in school, and hung up about 5 minutes later. Would I have reacted differently if he had worn earrings, high heels and makeup, and was essentially confessing his attraction to me in person, after class, maybe in a crowded hallway? It's hard to say. I don't think I would have beat him up or shot him, but that's just me.

At some point though, if there is prolonged harassment (and that's what it is, when it's unwanted advances or attention), there should have been some kind of intervention to change their schedules, their classes, their lunches, anything to create some space and separation between the two. Unfortunately, it seems like things probably kept building to a head and the killer was humiliated beyond what he could take and he exploded. Hate crimes tend to be crimes of humiliation, second to the penultimate cause of anger.

[Kuya]

Did you just equate the open-mindedness issue that is found here, with the clear anti-gun disposition you possess? Once again, the gun issue is a derail. If you want to bring that up, make a different thread. As the OP, I have the right to ask that the thread not be derailed.

[Beckwin]

I'm not even trying to say it's 50/50 in terms of cause or whatnot, but it's still a factor worth considering. Aside from the need to isolate Larry if he didn't have a gun, and in spite of this Brandon kid being fucked up and hateful, can we really know if he was the kind of fucked up and hateful 14 year old that could beat another boy until he stopped moving, or strangled until he stopped breathing, or stabbed until he was covered in blood and passed out? I think there's a strong case for guns creating a disconnect with the reality of extreme violence, especially in young boys. And what the hell Brandon's parents were doing needs to be addressed, not only in how they raised him but how their son acquired a handgun. We don't know the whole story, but I don't think Brandon Mc(white?) strolls down to the barrio for the first time after school on the 14th and comes back the next day with a gun.

[Beckwin]

I was talking about how you profess open mindedness when discussing/examining issues. And don't say it's a non-issue or derail when the OP is about a boy shooting another boy out of hateful homophobia/masculine insecurity.

[archibaldcrane]

In trying to find out where he got the gun from, I found this interesting article - some insight on Bradon McInerney:

Lawrence King and his murderer Brandon McInerney

By Paul Pringle and Catherine Saillant
LOS ANGELES TIMES

LOS ANGELES -- For teenagers living in a shelter for abused and neglected children, school can provide a daily dose of normalcy, a place to fit in, a chance to be just another kid.

It didn't turn out that way for Lawrence King.

According to the few students who befriended him, Larry, 15 years old and openly gay, found no refuge from his tormentors at E.O. Green Junior High School.

The 14-year-old accused of murdering him, Brandon McInerney, had his own troubled home life when he was younger, with his parents accusing each other of drug addiction and physical assaults, court records show. The year before Brandon was born, his father allegedly shot the boy's mother in the arm, shattering her elbow, the records say.

Brandon has been charged as an adult with premeditated murder and a hate crime and is being held in juvenile hall.

For about a decade, the household of William and Kendra McInerney, Brandon's parents, had been in turmoil. The 1993 shooting incident led to William's conviction on discharging a firearm and a 120-day jail sentence, according to court records.

William and Kendra McInerney declined to be interviewed. Brandon's attorney also declined to comment.

Some students say Brandon, tall and strong for his age, was one of the "cool" students and could be unfriendly. "If you weren't part of that group, it was like you didn't exist," said Erin Mings, 12. "He was a real jerk."

Earlier this year, some of Brandon's classmates say, Larry began "hitting" on him and remarking for all to hear that he thought Brandon was "cute." Other boys then ribbed Brandon by saying he must be gay.

Michael Sweeney, an eighth-grader at E.O. Green, picked up on the whispering that followed.

"Brandon told this one girl that he was going to kill Larry," Michael said. "She didn't tell the principal. I didn't either, after I heard about it. I thought it was a joke."

Larry was shot the next day.

The family has established a Web site in his memory, with a photo gallery that shows Larry throughout his childhood -- on his first plane ride, getting a haircut, dressed as the Great Pumpkin for Halloween. Hundreds of sympathetic comments have been posted.

Larry's friends offer differing accounts of whether he had complained to teachers about the taunting. Some say he had decided not to report it, fearing that he would be branded a "rat" and suffer the consequences.

"They used to bug him a lot, pick on him -- 'Hey you, gay kid ... want to wear lipstick?'" Vanessa Ramirez, 15, said of Larry's belittlers. "He'd start crying. ... He didn't want to tell the teachers because they'd start picking on him more."

Looks like they both had really fucked up family lives. The reason that thing like tolerance need to be taught in schools, and bullying needs to be recognized and stopped as soon as possible, is that we can't rely on parents for anything.

[Remyo]

tbh, both kids family backgrounds sound fucked up.

[Beckwin]

Yeah, I really wouldn't be surprised if the gun came from Brandon's household. Not to mention the idea that you can shoot people if they piss you off, and the lack of a good male role model to create a positive sense of masculinity.

[Plow]

Hey come on guys just cuz some kid took a gun and shot somebody in the back of their head ending their life singlehandedly with no opportunity for defense by himself or anyone doesn't mean it has anything to do with guns!

[Zigma]

Read the thread, I don't see the big issue here.

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/465/aidswe7.jpg

I agree.

[Beckwin]

man I wish I could pretend to not give a shit about anything when I'm on the internet. I'd be so cool and funny- the AIDS jokes would just flow out of me.