15 year old gay kid, killed

[Tyche]

I'm not buying that the school shouldn't be to blame. They need to have some accountability here. The situation should have been squashed. I don't know how big this school is, but surely to god they knew it was going on, and they should have done something about it. Then again, if the kid was willing to take it to the next level as he did, I'm sure he could have gave a shit less as to what the repercussions of the school were going to be. In my high school, we had fights, but it wasn't a whole lot. A lot of the times, other students would inform school officials that something was amiss and shit was about to go down. The school would act appropriately. Surely someone alerted school officials unless The King kid completely alienated himself from everyone, which I very much doubt.

[Lexa]

The point I was making is that if people who aren't openly homophobic would resort to hurting a gay person who made advances towards them, what GOOD would come of making advances towards people who are ridiculing him in public? They'd just keel over and apologize?

If some dude rams my car with his, then still jumps out and starts screaming, blaming the accident on me, what GOOD will come of me retorting that it was his fault?

You're basically saying everyone should just roll over and take the abuse they get, because what GOOD will standing up do.

There are definite flaws in the system around the gay kid, but the only person who's really responsible for his death in the end, is the guy who pulled the trigger. Not the gay kid who was standing up for himself.

I'll stop posting if a Mod tells me to. *shrug*

[Tonko]

wb Tonko.

Yes, I know, your penis is forthcoming.

How was Dallas?

Slutty.

BTW, Nice Summary.

Thank you.

I didn't backpedal, what the fuck.

You went from this pile of crap:

Exactly, it's just a horrible way to go about any situation. You should just embrace who you are and not try to be something you aren't. Dressing in high heels and wearing makeup is not what any male in our society does, I don't care how much of an individual you claim to be, you aren't doing that because it feels natural you're doing it because you're confused. Besides, by adhering to these gender roles we have in society you're only reinforcing all the negative gender ranking that goes on and limiting any progress you might want to achieve. Just because you found out you're gay doesn't mean you've got to act flamboyant and reinvent yourself with opposite sex characteristics; it means you are attracted to the same sex, that's it.

I bet he wasn't even really gay, he probably just loved attention he got and was using the form of dress to evoke new emotions from his interactions. I find it hard to believe any reasonable middle schooler would do this without some sort of ulterior motive. Middle School is about the point in time when you realize, "Hey, what I do affects my social rank and I need to be fucking aware of that and not act stupid as hell unless there's a reason for it."

To something much more middle of the road:

I wasn't intending anyone to get from my discussion that him acting "feminine" was wrong, I was only discussing that I found it odd how a majority of the gay people I've met choose to take on these very similar roles. I know it could be due to a similarity in genetics but I refuse to believe all these gay men for example, just happen to also decide to talk with a lisp and act effeminate. It's annoying when they act a certain way just because of their sexual orientation, when it shouldn't be a factor in how they act. It should be, like you said, independant of gender, the way one acts.

I think it's much more complicated and yes, they're just "uncomplacent" I guess. I made the mistake of veering the discussion where it wasn't headed.

edit: I see what you meant when you said I was assuming he wasn't effeminate. In order for my statement about how a majority of gay men may take on traditionally female roles to be relevant, the boy in the article would have had to have done the same thing. But I didn't mean it that way, I was just using his obvious case as a basis for discussion.

I'm not chiding you for the backpedaling, you did it well, and it seems like you may have learned something from the discussion.

Anybody who seeks to identify themselves as part of a group, will either intentionally, or subconsciously seek to make themselves as much like what they perceive that group to be as possible, so as to be better accepted. MANY gay guys do this, by subscribing to the popular notion that those who are not gay have of what a homosexual should act like. You can see this with any group, and people seeking to become "one of." There's the learned, and then the innate, some people are honestly just effeminate, weather gay or str8,male or female, so there's no way to say what is or is not natural and instinctual vs learned & forced.


Tyche: No where did it say that the school endorsed or even let the kid continue to wear the articles of female attire. It's possible they made him wash the makeup off, put on sensible shoes, and remove the jewelry after he showed up with it on.
All you can do is take people as they choose to present themselves to you.

Lexa: You're doing just fine, no worries.

[Cyn]

As I have not really seen any seriously homophobic posts in this thread, I would like to remind everyone that we're all on the same side here, and that before we flame each other we take a moment and realize that this thread has basically boiled down to fighting over conflict resolution. We're all outraged that this happened I think, instead of fighting on a message board we need to channel our rage into supporting local groups that are actively working to make changes in America. If you feel strongly about changing the way that our nation feels about homosexuality and gay rights, I'd like to suggest that you at least take the time to look into your local chapter of the HRC, as they're always looking for straight allies.

And Tonko, I hope you realize that using the term breeder in every post is a bit offensive, it's a derogatory comment coming from you much the same as if I had, as a straight man, called you a faggot.

[Khamsin]

...your "non-homophobic" friends (and by the way, big fat LOL @ that)...

...

And finally, may I add another big, fat LOL @ "I'm not a homophobe, guyz, honest!!! I HAVE GAY FRIENDZ!"

What's it take to truly not be homophobic, even by your standards? Be bisexual?

Do I count as non-homophobic because of my pink hauberk, and the fact that I read the local gay tribune?! (well, not regularly, I just read it while waiting for someone at a coffee shop since it's in the pile along with the other newspapers)

To be honest, though, if a gay guy was flirting with me in a friendly but non-overt manner (i.e. smiling, making conversation, but you suspect he's flirting through body language, eye contact, etc.) I'd probably just smile back and make conversation until he actually made a move. Then I'd inform him I'm not gay. But until a gay guy overtly says he's interested in me, I don't really care. And in my experience, that scenario is very unlikely anyway. Out of all the gay people I knew in college, I never witnessed any of them hit on anybody. Even the ones that made sure everyone knew they were gay.

[Tyche]

My point wasn't so much aimed at the attire, but the "flirting" as being retaliatory. Wear a dress and a veil if you want, as long as the school allows it. Just don't retaliate, don't react. I'm not saying don't do anything about, but there are better ways to handle it.. I just think everyone has some egg on their face here. Except for Larry King, he has no face now.

[Tonko]

And Tonko, I hope you realize that using the term breeder in every post is a bit offensive, it's a derogatory comment coming from you much the same as if I had, as a straight man, called you a faggot.

<grin> I've not used it in even close to every post, I don't mean it in an offensive manner, and some of my best friends are straight! And if you called me a faggot, I'd simply reply, "Yeah, and?" Words have as much power as you give them, no more.

[Deejay]

The point I was making is that if people who aren't openly homophobic would resort to hurting a gay person who made advances towards them, what GOOD would come of making advances towards people who are ridiculing him in public? They'd just keel over and apologize?

If some dude rams my car with his, then still jumps out and starts screaming, blaming the accident on me, what GOOD will come of me retorting that it was his fault?

You're basically saying everyone should just roll over and take the abuse they get, because what GOOD will standing up do.

There are definite flaws in the system around the gay kid, but the only person who's really responsible for his death in the end, is the guy who pulled the trigger. Not the gay kid who was standing up for himself.

I'll stop posting if a Mod tells me to. *shrug*

Lexa, sit down, and open your eyes wide ok? Now let your dumbass eyes read hard enough listen to what i'm saying.

Enforcing a retarded person's negative beliefs towards you will never get them to stop hating you. This is a lesson taught to many black children when they're young. If a white person believes blacks resort to fighting to solve their problems, what good comes from getting mad and trying to beat their faces in. Ultimately, what are you accomplishing here? You're only enforcing their negative attitude by acting it out yourself.

Never in my lifetime have I seen someone change the mind of a prejudice person simply by acting out what it is the prejudice person hates. Give me one instance where that solves or settles anything.

No where did I say that he couldn't stand up for himself, i'm saying he shouldn't have done it the way he did because it doesn't work, it just makes matters worse.

[Cyn]

No fair, you used the straight guy defense.

[Elmer the Pointy]

While I do agree exacerbating the situation by flirting with an already unreasonable bully wasn't smart, it's too easy to use that as an excuse since we're all older, more mature, and removed from the kid's situation.

I mean, the kid's 15 and in high school. He's in the middle of growing up, thrust into a world of desperation for acceptance with the handicap of being openly gay. To then be targeted by a bully only make you feel more isolated, more scared, and less able to think rationally. He probably thought hitting on the bully was ingenious... what better way to frighten him off? And how clever!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8cN2pB3MCE

That's a pretty funny video clip, right? I'm not being sarcastic here.

In high school, I had a best friend of mine come out to me and tell me he loved me. He was scared out of his balls to do it, but I stayed friends with him. In the end, some 12 years down the road, we've sort of drifted apart and rarely speak. The "confession," and all the stress involved has become but a blip. At the time though, it was like his universe was crashing down around him.

A similar thing happened in college. Me and my roommate hung out with the guy across the hall a lot. Little did we know, for almost half the school year, he was wrestling with the idea of coming out or not. Finally, he just bit the bullet and we just went along as friends like always, so it was like "Jeez, what too you so long?" But like they say, hindsight is 20/20.

Anyway, there's just way too much about being gay I could never understand, and maybe by sharing this, some other people in the thread can see where the homosexual kid was coming from.

[EternityEnd]

Actually it's not. I have plenty of non-homophobic friends who would never ridicule someone for being gay. But those same people would not hesitate to punch a man who man homoerotic advances towards them.

And that makes it somehow OK? "OH NO THIS DUDE HIT ON ME!" ...and that's wrong how?

Not to mention in the scenario you describe, your "non-homophobic" friends (and by the way, big fat LOL @ that) didn't do anything, theoretically didn't even look at said gay person before he hit on them. So are you saying that it's OK to hit a gay person as long as he's "provoking" the violence (through a reaction that by the way, no WOMAN would ever receive) first? Even if the world's ugliest, most disgusting woman came up and made advances towards one of your "non-homophobic" friends, I somehow doubt they'd respond by punching her teeth in.

And finally, may I add another big, fat LOL @ "I'm not a homophobe, guyz, honest!!! I HAVE GAY FRIENDZ!"

The point I was making is that if people who aren't openly homophobic would resort to hurting a gay person who made advances towards them, what GOOD would come of making advances towards people who are ridiculing him in public? They'd just keel over and apologize?

Answer this question and i'll give you a cookie, if not then kindly stop speaking.

It doesn't matter- Your friends are still very, very homophobic. If they would seriously punch a guy who hit on them(Which should be quite flattering, to any sensible and mature person who realizes hitting on=I think you're hot, have a cookie..) then they're violently homophobic/insecure with their own sexuality.

Your friends are irrational fucktards, they are homophobic, and pretending they aren't if they would punch someone who basically complemented them is just as ignorant edit: and you can't use such an example to accurately portray any situation. Since I hit submit early without thinking~

[Kumbai]

Anyway, there's just way too much about being gay I could never understand, and maybe by sharing this, some other people in the thread can see where the homosexual kid was coming from.

Could very easily be turned round to being straight so the bullied kid can see why the hetrosexual kids where bullying him.

Sometimes being who you are is more important than what others think of you, shame it ended up with him dying trying to be who he was.

[Deejay]

To EternityEnd: I'm not attempting to say they're not homophobic. I'm simply saying that my friends who consider themselves respectful around gays would not hesitate to resort to violence if a gay person made advances towards them. I'm trying to point out that if THEY would act this way, what makes you think the kids who were harassing Larry wouldn't?

THIS IS THE ONLY POINT THAT I WAS MAKING. You can call my friends homophobes all you want, not all of them are like that. I'm simply saying that I know a couple that would. It doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

[Lexa]

What's it take to truly not be homophobic, even by your standards? Be bisexual?

Not responding to being hit on by a person of the same sex, by clobbering him, would be a good start.

Lexa, sit down, and open your eyes wide ok? Now let your dumbass eyes read hard enough listen to what i'm saying.

I'm a dumbass because I believe the kid did nothing wrong? You're not exactly making a compelling argument for yourself.

Enforcing a retarded person's negative beliefs towards you will never get them to stop hating you.

No where did I say that he couldn't stand up for himself, i'm saying he shouldn't have done it the way he did because it doesn't work, it just makes matters worse.

That's okay, you keep believing that will always be the answer. *pat, pat*

PS. If they're responding to being hit on by a person of the same sex, with violence, newsflash - THEY'RE NOT TOLERANT OF GAY PEOPLE! And as for why the kids wouldn't - well, because not everyone in this world is a fucking psycho who will resort to KILLING a person over it.

[Mizango]

Actually it's not. I have plenty of non-homophobic friends who would never ridicule someone for being gay. But those same people would not hesitate to punch a man who man homoerotic advances towards them.

And that makes it somehow OK? "OH NO THIS DUDE HIT ON ME!" ...and that's wrong how?

Not to mention in the scenario you describe, your "non-homophobic" friends (and by the way, big fat LOL @ that) didn't do anything, theoretically didn't even look at said gay person before he hit on them. So are you saying that it's OK to hit a gay person as long as he's "provoking" the violence (through a reaction that by the way, no WOMAN would ever receive) first? Even if the world's ugliest, most disgusting woman came up and made advances towards one of your "non-homophobic" friends, I somehow doubt they'd respond by punching her teeth in.

And finally, may I add another big, fat LOL @ "I'm not a homophobe, guyz, honest!!! I HAVE GAY FRIENDZ!"

The point I was making is that if people who aren't openly homophobic would resort to hurting a gay person who made advances towards them, what GOOD would come of making advances towards people who are ridiculing him in public? They'd just keel over and apologize?

Answer this question and i'll give you a cookie, if not then kindly stop speaking.

It doesn't matter- Your friends are still very, very homophobic. If they would seriously punch a guy who hit on them(Which should be quite flattering, to any sensible and mature person who realizes hitting on=I think you're hot, have a cookie..) then they're violently homophobic/insecure with their own sexuality.

Your friends are irrational fucktards, they are homophobic, and pretending they aren't if they would punch someone who basically complemented them is just as ignorant.

To put this race terms (for sheer understanding purposes) that like someone saying "Hell I'm not racist, I have 7 black friends". Sorry Deejay, but the Lexa and Etern have it right on this one. Walking around saying "im not homophobic" but not hesitating to "punch someone" in the face that makes "advances" at them speaks volumes of what they think subconsciously.

Would they react the same if Peaches and Bonequisha walked up to them and began backing up that badonkadonk on them in the club? No, probably not. What is the root difference there? I mean think about it. I like how people think homosexuals are vampires that stalk the straight lol. i used to work with a goddamn ugly snaggletoothed motherfucker that justified it this way.."Goddamn I hate faggots, I don't want them trying to touch and kiss on me" My first thought is dude, you're fucking 40ish, no kids, never had a gf, wife or anything of that sort, yet he was dead set in his beliefs that some gay guy would hit on him when he didn't want them to.

Homophobia justification makes me lol.


edit: can we please stop calling him Larry King? It makes me lol when im trying to convey a point.

[Deejay]

You still haven't given me a situation where enforcing a negative stereotype solves any problems. If he's not attempting to resolve the situation, what is he doing?

Did he deserve to die? No. Did he have the right to stand up for himself? Hell fucking yes. Should have have responded the way he did? Not if he thought that would stop the kids from abusing him.

[Tyche]

While I do agree exacerbating the situation by flirting with an already unreasonable bully wasn't smart, it's too easy to use that as an excuse since we're all older, more mature, and removed from the kid's situation.

I mean, the kid's 15 and in high school. He's in the middle of growing up, thrust into a world of desperation for acceptance with the handicap of being openly gay. To then be targeted by a bully only make you feel more isolated, more scared, and less able to think rationally. He probably thought hitting on the bully was ingenious... what better way to frighten him off? And how clever!

15 is old enough for you to rationalize the decisions you make, at least the courts who are holding the kid on bond as an adult think so. If you are giving the gay kid the benefit of the doubt for being thrust into a world striving for acceptance, then you have to give the attacker of the same age (were they the same age, I could be whiffing here?) the benefit of not knowing how to properly deal with an openly gay peer (just referring to bullying here, not the shooting, even a fucking 7 year old should be able to make that distinction).

Just reading the story doesn't lead me to believe any of that however. I think both parties were fully aware of situation and just too damn immature to properly handle it. Then again, you can say everyone grows up at different rates and handles situations differently. Could have very well been the case here.

[Deejay]

Homophobia justification makes me lol.

I'm not justifying my friends acts. I'm simply saying that if SOMEONE WHO CONSIDERS HIMSELF RESPECTFUL AROUND GAYs would punch one in the face....WHAT DO YOU THINK AN OPENLY HOMOPHOBIC PERSON WOULD DO?

Edit: Seriously, some one answer the question and quit side-stepping it by attacking my friends.

[EternityEnd]

How could a scared 15 year old resolve the situation with a bunch of irrational, immature, homophobic kids that torment him out of ignorance. He couldn't. Period.

[Deejay]

Which brings me back to my original point: saying he shouldn't have acted.

Funny how things run a full circle right?