Trade systems of FFXI.

[Naver]

Is it wrong that the only thing I noticed in this thread is Tomiko's Muffin? >_>

[Thorny]

Ok so they might know not to spend 25 mil but how about 4 or 5? 6 or 7? The object is not to inform the noob idiot who pays 25mil but to help out the guy who worked his ass off to make 4.5 mil and let him know hey this is worth 3.8mil so save your self some spending cash. Now you might be saying so what it is only 700k but that is enough money to keep some one in the black for a while once they get the big ticket stuff out of the way. Day to day cost in FFXI are not exactly 0 you know.

A universal price wouldn't work very well for this type of thing in my opinion. Some shells have more difficulty with things than others, and might not think it's worth it for whatever you'd call going price. However, if someone is willing to pay more than that, they might be more likely to consider it. There really aren't enough people doing it for there to be competition between shells or even a going price on any server though.. and server economies vary so a universal list is doomed to fail. It isn't black and white like the AH, if someone says 4.5mil for it you can still offer 3.5m. If 3.5m is reasonable or the going price or whatever, it's possible the linkshell will accept it. If not, you'll likely get a compromise in the middle and still not end up paying full price. People in ffxi tend to be in a rush to sell things quite often, if you see someone shouting to sell something you can usually get another 5-15% off of what they're shouting if you offer less. The shells that wouldn't drop price in that situation won't drop it if there is a 'going price' list, and they'll still have business. Sure, people will consider it a ripoff, but it's not like you have endless opportunities to buy those items from different shells ->

[Sesshoumaru]

Umm... sorry man you got some things very off base there. If demand exist with a short supply the supplier does control more then those demanding. However if there was an up to date listing of various shells from all servers it would be difficult for a shell to totally ignore it when dealing with intelligent consumers. Universal or otherwise if the trend shows that ramuh shell charges 5mil bahamut shell charges 4.7mil and ifrit shell charges 5.2 mil but they are all in line with say the price of a haub+1 then it would be very easy to determine cross servers just how much should be paid for the abj. you are seeking, simply look up the base item haub+1 and determine how much you should pay from there.

In regards to the whole it is harder/easier for some shells argument, it fails simply due tot he nature of all trade. The one offering the lowest price and able to meet demand wins. Thus if ifrit small shell has trouble getting abj. reliably but ifrit big shell can get them quickly and in line with the price list people will go to the big shell with their business. The same way people wouldn't buy a gallon of milk for $12 if they could go across the street and get it for $5.

Also should prices fluctuate 5%-25% it would still be a far cry better then the price fluctuations goign on now, where one person might pay around 5 mil and the next 10mil or 25 mil which roughly equates to fluctuations of over 400%! As for the people in a hurry who don't care about price, there isn't much I care about in that situation, If they aren't willing to look around for an hour or two before committing themselves to a deal that is their problem.

[Thorny]

If you don't want to get a shell and deal with the fights, drama, point systems, and everything typically involved in getting those items it's your own problem if you pay too much. It's not nearly what you're making it out to be, if a buyer goes along with a fluctuation of more than 15% it's their own fault for not looking into other options first. Additionally, price comparisons are not accurate server to server.. from what I'm told Asura still has many RMT in sky, making haidate far more valuable in comparison to hauby+1 since hauby+1 synth items come from so many different sources while byakko will always need despot stones.

In regards to the whole it is harder/easier for some shells argument, it fails simply due tot he nature of all trade. The one offering the lowest price and able to meet demand wins. Thus if ifrit small shell has trouble getting abj. reliably but ifrit big shell can get them quickly and in line with the price list people will go to the big shell with their business. The same way people wouldn't buy a gallon of milk for $12 if they could go across the street and get it for $5.

You're missing the point. Some servers have gilsellers in sky still making it harder for all of their shells to get to the point they'd even consider doing that, and raising the price in comparison to other items.

Umm... sorry man you got some things very off base there. If demand exist with a short supply the supplier does control more then those demanding.

In normal economics, yes. However, unless that shell is capped on all drops from the series of mobs items are being sold from, members will want the mobs popped to get the items they need. Holding a bunch of byakko sets to try to find buyers that will pay a ridiculous price or popping the byakkos and having the haidate go to waste to get seals are both very stupid choices. In that situation, if the buyer makes it clear they will not pay full price it would be incredibly stupid to not cut it by a small percent. If you(as a shell) are 100% capped on Kirin drops and byakko drops, or in the sea example homam or nashira, then i could see saving pops until you find a buyer. The main problem with this idealistic scenario is how quickly people level jobs nowadays and the fact that you'll always have linkshell members who want those items. Ideally, yes you can control market value, but it will penalize your linkshell members that help with the pop items and fight unless you somehow already capped on everything for everyone.

[Hilkiah]

I have wondered about a mercenary sky system like you're talking about that allows for payouts every run. A 'small' LS bank would pool the money we make and payout based on the 'value of the event'. This could cause less drama and allow people to come and go as they please, making their share (in gil) for each successful event, whether it be farming pop items or helping with a god fight.

Sources of income: selling rare/ex and money drops from gods to our members, the highest bidder present.

Expenses: the money we make from selling the god gear will go back to our members who fight the battles AND farm the pop items, by trickling the money back to the farming sources.

The problem with a lot of sky point systems or priority systems is that people can get a lot of points for doing nothing, or else don't get recognized for their true efforts. In this system, it's clear where the money comes from since it takes 2 pop items to fight Byakko, for example. Some of the Byakko money goes to those farming efforts. It's a tricky system since you need seals to pop Kirin as well, but I'm willing to do the math.

It would take some tweaking as we go, but when we know the value of each drop, we can start to figure out the 'value' of each pop item, and the value of farming each of them.

Example: Maybe haidate are worth 3 mil. Maybe they drop 1/3 of the time. (Repeat for each of Byakko's drops.) Maybe all together Byakko's average drops are worth 1.2 mil. Maybe 1/3 goes to the fight itself, and 1/3 to each pop item. 400k divided between all members at the fight and 400k for each ulli or despot pop item. Hey, that sounds pretty good.

Of course some pop items are easier to obtain so we'd have to tweak the system as we go. And this example doesn't include the Kirin efforts. A byakko fight gets us a seal (which is worth some gil, as we know), but also the byakko pop items get us closer to kirin, which should have payouts to those present at kirin fights but also to all efforts leading up to kirin (farming, as well as god fights I suppose).

[Kittyn]

Oddly enough, Sesshoumaru is 100% correct. The EX tag removes the ability of the "purchaser" of said loot pool item from knowing the fair market value without doing extensive research. For instance, if one linkshell charges 2million for B.Haidate and another linkshell charges 4 million, prospective customers have to hunt down pricelists themselves in order to make an informed decision, instead of having a single place (like the AH). This is also not taking into account travel time and drop percentages.

On the other hand, Kraken Clubs and Herald's Gaiters are tradable, however AH history on both items is spotty at best due to the low drop rate, high demand, and relative low trading velocity of those objects. So removing an EX tag doesn't necessarily correspond to higher market visibility and coherency.

Some items simply don't get sold on AH for obvious reasons. However there is no resource like FFXIAH when it comes to the buying/selling of abj. I for one would be happy to see abj. items as common as Haubergeons.

Question to the Mods:

Is a Item Sale/Trade thread something that you guys would even allow?
or
Simply a price list for specific approved Shells?

Aaww but you are wrong. There is a resource like FFXIAH where you can buy/sell abj. It is in fact FFXIAH. lol You can list buy & sell orders for any item in the game from salvage parts to relic weapons to abjs. Now why are people not publicizing this more? It's quite simply the fact that either people don't care enough or they care about their reputations. The buy/sell EX items is in the gray area like World Transfering goods for gil! There's still a lot of people who play this game who consider this "RMT." That's really the core of the problem. My friend was recently kicked out of his LS because he was inquiring about buying a haidate. He was instantly classified as RMT.

To simpify the problem: We have some cheap sky triggers in bazaars yet no LS ever buys them. In most scenarios it's more time efficient to buy sky triggers at a good price than sending a LS after them. Perhaps we still feel that sky triggers are more likely RMTed than legit.

[Lordwafik]

Question to the Mods:

Is a Item Sale/Trade thread something that you guys would even allow?
or
Simply a price list for specific approved Shells?

Nope! Use your own sites to advertize your own prices. If you do want to show people an item sale list, a little note like the one below in your sig or profile is ok, but dedicated topics for item sales won't be tolerated.

Click for an item pricelist 

If it's flashy then we'll get rid of it.

[Sesshoumaru]

Aaww but you are wrong. There is a resource like FFXIAH where you can buy/sell abj. It is in fact FFXIAH. lol You can list buy & sell orders for any item in the game from salvage parts to relic weapons to abjs.

Umm.... I meant the actually FFXIAH where u go search item you want and see a nice ah history. the bazaar system on FFXIAH is very lol for the most part, I really love how acurate those kraken etc prices are! ( /sarcasm off). So keep your aaww to yourself tyvm and maybe think before you post so definitively.

Now why are people not publicizing this more? It's quite simply the fact that either people don't care enough or they care about their reputations. The buy/sell EX items is in the gray area like World Transfering goods for gil! There's still a lot of people who play this game who consider this "RMT." That's really the core of the problem. My friend was recently kicked out of his LS because he was inquiring about buying a haidate. He was instantly classified as RMT.

To simpify the problem: We have some cheap sky triggers in bazaars yet no LS ever buys them. In most scenarios it's more time efficient to buy sky triggers at a good price than sending a LS after them. Perhaps we still feel that sky triggers are more likely RMTed than legit.

That LS of your friend are a bunch of morons, unless they had more proof then the facts you offer. It is not RMT, selling haidate or abj, for $100 or 50 pounds would be RMT (REAL MONEY TRADING). As for triggers either buy em from legit players, for a cheap enough price, or get em yourself, sky triggers are not exactly hard to get. The main reason people don't buy triggers is the price and not the idea that RMT might be involved, If I saw a bunch of sky triggers goign for a 200k each I'd most likely buy them it would be stupid not too. If we have to worry about RMT in every purchase we make then we can not purchase anything at all from the AH.

So have a

Aaww but you are wrong.

[Kittyn]

Umm.... I meant the actually FFXIAH where u go search item you want and see a nice ah history. the bazaar system on FFXIAH is very lol for the most part, I really love how acurate those kraken etc prices are! ( /sarcasm off). So keep your aaww to yourself tyvm and maybe think before you post so definitively.

There won't ever be a history for EX items because it's not built in the game. Even if there was and LS reported sales it would still be susceptible to manipulation like AH listings has some fake sales on high end items.

I've been tracking kraken club sales on FFXIAH (and some servers) & they usually sell for 35m. Although this isn't 100% accurate if you saw someone selling one for 25m, I'm sure someone would quickly buy it & sell to someone on FFXIAH & make a quick 5-10m. Look at the buy & sell orders. You see the equilibrium price is right around 35m and then there's a ton of loloutliers. I think what would help is if FFXIAH actually was able to sort buy & sell orders by price.

If we had the same results like 5 buy & 5 sell orders for abj, I think it would work. EX sales would be slightly different as people probably won't be transferring their main characters. You'd probably get 1 LS per server opening the market with 1-2 outrageous abj sales at 6-7m. Then another LS would catch on & start undercutting until we reach equilibrium. It really depends if sellers or buyers want to market themselves to the world.

Now why are people not publicizing this more? It's quite simply the fact that either people don't care enough or they care about their reputations. The buy/sell EX items is in the gray area like World Transfering goods for gil! There's still a lot of people who play this game who consider this "RMT." That's really the core of the problem. My friend was recently kicked out of his LS because he was inquiring about buying a haidate. He was instantly classified as RMT.

To simpify the problem: We have some cheap sky triggers in bazaars yet no LS ever buys them. In most scenarios it's more time efficient to buy sky triggers at a good price than sending a LS after them. Perhaps we still feel that sky triggers are more likely RMTed than legit.

That LS of your friend are a bunch of morons, unless they had more proof then the facts you offer. It is not RMT, selling haidate or abj, for $100 or 50 pounds would be RMT (REAL MONEY TRADING). As for triggers either buy em from legit players, for a cheap enough price, or get em yourself, sky triggers are not exactly hard to get. The main reason people don't buy triggers is the price and not the idea that RMT might be involved, If I saw a bunch of sky triggers goign for a 200k each I'd most likely buy them it would be stupid not too. If we have to worry about RMT in every purchase we make then we can not purchase anything at all from the AH.

So have a

Aaww but you are wrong.

That's the problem even if they're morons & it's not RMT, that doesn't change the fact that you're still better off lying to people how you got your item when the "legitimate" item you got was bought with "legitimate" gil. Also there are still a number of people who would bring up the "Earned legitimately" vs "Buy" argument so again it's better to be hush-hush.

[Sesshoumaru]

That's the problem even if they're morons & it's not RMT, that doesn't change the fact that you're still better off lying to people how you got your item when the "legitimate" item you got was bought with "legitimate" gil. Also there are still a number of people who would bring up the "Earned legitimately" vs "Buy" argument so again it's better to be hush-hush.

I can make the argument that many of the players who have these items have not earned them legitimately even if they did not buy them out right. Unfair lot orders, etc etc. Every thing can be knit picked, If you earn the money yourself and then use it to go buy what ever you earned it, it really is that simple. If people get caught up to much in other peoples business to the point where stuff turns into the Salem with trials it is just dumb. But nevertheless people will pop witch kabobs and spout off at the mouth with accusations. In that situation either tell em to fuck off or ignore them.

Usually the person who buy an abj. is not going to be in the "main stream" ffxi community so they really only have to answer to themselves.

[Quizno]

Forum rules

This forum is for asking questions or discussing certain aspects of the game. That means that a topic that is generally more of a personal kind can be posted here without fear of being shot down in the advanced section. Let me make this clear, from this point on, if you are caught trolling in this section you will be punished. I have asked the moderators of the forums to keep a very close eye on this section because it's getting out of hand. If you can not read this section of the forums without being nasty, don't even click it. (That means if you are going to respond to a post in this section, that you can not simply say that you didn't read it, stop crying, or start name calling.) We are very lenient in the advanced section regarding this, but not here.

[Sesshoumaru]

thank you for that quote it made your point come through loud and clear... no really it did....

[Quizno]

That wasn't my quote. Moderators didn't like that I agreed with you so they changed what I said.

I'll send you a message to let you know what I think.

[Sesshoumaru]

ahhhh. gotcha.

But still I try lone voice screaming out into the night and all that jazz. I like hamsters tho.