Dynamis vs Salvage

[Wizerd]

First, I'll clarify what I mean and don't mean. This post isn't about how good one event is compared to the other, or anything like that. If this should be in Newbie or Advanced(hah), feel free to move it, since it's more of an opinion thread.

I want to know what people see when they see these 2 events from an HNM LS perspective. What I mean is, if you were/are a sack or a leader, and your members were the players in question.

The Scenario
You run/help run an HNM LS that does the three kings, Cerberus, Tiamat, Khimaira, and whatever else that might spring up spontaneously. You may or may not do Salvage as an LS, but as we all know Salvage isn't very good with too many people, so maybe you only do it with a small group from your LS.

Now, your members want to do Salvage as well, and they want to do Dynamis. Some linkshells do Dynamis in LS only and don't let members do it outside, but suppose that's not the case, because that would just make this scenario kind of nil.

The Question
Do you treat Dynamis and Salvage any different? If an HNM pops or a window collides with when some of your members are in one of these events, do you expect them to just drop it and leave, possibly screwing the rest of the people in that group out of whatever they were doing? Or do you just play it off as if they were not online? Obviously, if the latter is the case, they would be expected to join the camp/HNM/etc when their event finished, unless they had to log out.


My Take
Providing the events are on a pre-planned schedule, and not just spontaneous (like Salvage sometimes is), the members should be allowed to do these events. People outside of your HNM LS are depending on them during these times, and your LS isn't more important than them in any way.

Salvage is a mere 2 hours including gathering time, that's not even the length of an HNM camp.

Dynamis is 4 hours including gathering time, but it's generally understood that people aren't expected to drop that and leave.

HNMs can run up to 9 hours a day just for the three kings, leaving no breathing room for anything else unless it's just after maintenance. Add on top of that Khimaira, Tiamat, Cerberus if your LS does them, plus other planned events.



Feel free to add Limbus or Einherjar or whatever in there if you want, since those are of similar concept.

Thanks.

[Suiram]

I feel it depends on the HNMLS's policy. If the HNMLS classifies "mandatory events" as many do (if you're online and not AFK you're expected to be there), then a person who had something else planned ought to cancel those plans and attend, or else face the consequences. That said, any person in such a LS who joins a Salvage/Limbus/whatever group or leads a group should make the others aware of the prior commitments that may potentially prevent them from attending runs, in the event that the group might not want to take them on for that reason.

On the other hand, if a person is in an HNMLS that is more flexible on attendance, then they shouldn't routinely skip the planned event to do HNMLS event, just as you would balance any conflicting obligations in any other situation. This is more an HNM philosophy than a Salvage/Limbus/Dynamis/Einherjar philosophy but I feel that it's better for an HNMLS to simply provide an outlet for people interested in HNMs, rather than dictates on time and mandates on activity as if a second job. It's way too easy and common to burn people out, and the idea that Fafnir or Cerberus should inherently take priority over anything else in the game I think is misguided. But I do know a lot of LSs are run that way and I don't mean to disrespect the ones that are, and I definitely don't want to start an argument against them (or against those in my own LS who may read this and don't like our own policy regarding this). Just expressing my own view on the topic.

[Seditedi]

HNMs can run up to 9 hours a day just for the three kings, leaving no breathing room for anything else unless it's just after maintenance. Add on top of that Khimaira, Tiamat, Cerberus if your LS does them, plus other planned events.
Thanks.

All part of the game, if you don't like camping kings then don't do it.
It really matters with your LS policies, but Salvage shouldn't take priority over Kings if you're in a shell that camps them regularly.

[Wizerd]

HNMs can run up to 9 hours a day just for the three kings, leaving no breathing room for anything else unless it's just after maintenance. Add on top of that Khimaira, Tiamat, Cerberus if your LS does them, plus other planned events.
Thanks.

All part of the game, if you don't like camping kings then don't do it.
It really matters with your LS policies, but Salvage shouldn't take priority over Kings if you're in a shell that camps them regularly.

But why treat Salvage different from Dynamis? That's what I don't understand. If your LS makes three kings take priority over Dynamis, more power to you, but most LS's from what I've heard don't. Dynamis is exempt from the rule, but Salvage never seems to be, even if your LS doesn't offer Salvage itself. It's like saying "No, you can't do Salvage at all, we control what you do in this game". And that's the attitude I don't respect.

[Uzor]

Now, it was ages ago I had a HNM LS last, as I'm just not interested in doing those events anymore (takes up WAY too much time from my rather limited schedule), but personally, I'd say it depends on the situation. Unless you're really hurting for people at said camp, I'd let them stay in Salvage/Dynamis if they so chose. However, Dynamis can have over 40 members at times, and one person missing will not exactly hurt them in the way it could hurt your Salvage run, especially if its in the middle of Salvage, and said person is your only BRD, only THF, only RDM or w/e. I'd be pissed off if someone decided to warp out in the middle of Salvage to attend, say, Aspid.

One can't exactly say that HNM's is a spontaneous event, as most, if not all, HNM LS's will keep track of the windows. So the members can plan to head to HNM camp prior to entering Dynamis or Salvage, and in my opinion, can't play the "fuck, spontaneous KB pop, have to go". Tiamat etc. are a somewhat iffy situation.

Iunno, I plan my time over a week in advance, so I expect others to have planned their time in advance as well, and let me know if they can or can't attend. Otherwise I get annoyed. Warping out of my Salvage would be inexcusable.

[Izzy]

I would treat Salvage differently because it only requires 6-9 people and you can just enter it when you're done with your HNM.

Dynamis however is on a pre-set schedule. Having less than optimal people is going to really hinder your ability to progress quickly and smoothly through the zone. We've always had a really strict policy on people skipping Dynamis for any kind of HNM. This is relevant to your post because we have people coming from many different HNMLS. If 10 of them don't show up because they're all in the same LS doing Tiamat, that really bones the other 20-25 people there who aren't in your HNMLS.

Dynamis is scheduled for a reason.

[Jayhawk]

If the pop window where one of the three ground kings may spawn (due to day since last pop) is going to conflict with a planned Salvage time, I would expect the Salvage group members to make an effort to postpone the Salvage run to be able to camp.

[Jones]

Our Salvage LS (just 8 of us, in varying HNM shell and some not at all) will postpone a run for an hour or two if HNM folks are doing something important and the Salvage people are critical to said HNM shell's success. However, once we enter, HNM do not exist for that blissful 110 mins.

[ringthree]

We have both scheduled Salvage and pick-up Salvage, both of which can be bumped for other events. Salvage doesn't require the man-power or the scheduling that almost any other event requires. It is short and easy to reschedule. I probably wouldn't demand that people in the middle of a Salvage drop the run for something else, but if you know a window is coming up they can probably go a little early or late to make the window.

[fishstix]

Salvage isn't restricted to the 72 hour entry rule. (nothing's going to drop anyways)

[Loren]

It all comes down to advance notice IMO.
If a shell leader can't be bothered to mention "we're doing Aery today" in the lsmes then I hope he's not too heartbroken if people are already busy when the window opens. Mutual respect for playtime is a 2-way street.

Rescheduling to accommodate a king camp is fine if the members are okay with it. IMO, if you sign up with a truly "hardcore" king shell, then all of your weekly activities should be limited to that group of people or else you're just setting up others for disappointment. Some people like it this way, others prefer a more casual shell--find the right fit for you.

Dynamis seems less likely to conflict since king shell membership = dyna shell membership usually, but in the case of a king shell that has no Dynamis, the king leadership needs to ponder carefully if members are allowed to do Dyna with other shells and accept the consequences of the decision like grownups. Either be 100% control freak or don't, but sending mixed messages just makes you a cockbite. Life is too short to deal with obligations and threats from internet people. -\O_o/-

[shihei]

Salvage is a waste to me if your small group doesn't do it atleast more then twice a week while on the other hand dynamis you are limited to twice a week.
IMO
Dynamis, the more the merrier as long as they aren't dumbfucks
Salvage, if more people from you HNM shell express their interest in attending, figure out a way to split them into balanced teams of 6-8. Bunch of different ways you can go about this, probably best with keeping the groups as a set. And if one of your groups needs a specific job, definately get a person outside you shells with that job, recruit. Maybe dedicate 1-2 runs of a zone to try and show new members how they should go about it all when there group starts going.
Events > HNM
It would be pretty dumb to leave in the middle of a salvage/dynamis to go try and claim a HNM. Maybe if it was 100% popped and 0 ppl in the zone...

[chewbar]

From what I seen, Salvage and Dynamis tend to be scheduled during NA prime times. And that's the times when you have more than enough people to camp most, if not all, HNMs. Most of the shells bent on dominating HNMs should have a sizeable member base. So for any of the instanced stuff (Dynamis/Salvage/Limbus/Einherjar/maybeNyzul), I'd say let them if its pre-scheduled to a set weekly time.
Another take with this is thinking about the long term objective goal of the end-game shells. For like 95% of them, its just to get its members the best gear they can get (why else would you spend 9 hours camping ground HNMs?). So why shouldn't they be allowed to pursue it in Salvage? Those gears are just as good as any other, some even better. So by allowing them to run those, you're still achieving the ultimate goals.

[Conrad]

Just to clarify: Are you talking about postponing Salvage to do 3Kings? Or, are you talking about a member/members of your Salvage group leaving during a run in order to make a window?

[Wizerd]

Just to clarify: Are you talking about postponing Salvage to do 3Kings? Or, are you talking about a member/members of your Salvage group leaving during a run in order to make a window?

Both really.

In the first situation, there were 5 of us waiting for 1 person to finish fighting an HNM. They took an incredibly long time because this was late at night (just before midnight pacific) and not as many people were on. They couldn't get a replacement for this person. That wasn't a problem.

The second situation irked me a little bit because despite having planned the run over 2 days in advance, kings popped in some early windows and ran over our Salvage time. Three of the 7 people who were coming to this run decided to come to Salvage, because A) how often to kings pop early? and B) they had already planned it and 4 other people who don't camp kings were depending on them. One of these 3 was the player from the first situation (who selflessly stayed with their LS to kill it, despite having told them they only had ~30min left, ~25min before pop).

As luck would have it, Nidhogg popped on first window about just under halfway through the run, and Adamantoise popped on an early window as we finished. Their linkshell still managed to kill Nidhogg easy enough, and well, lolAdaman. However, they got shit for it because they weren't there at the camps. There's more details but I don't want to get anyone into trouble and some of them read BG (although one of the leaders knows I think he's a retard <_<).

In the same linkshell, they have about 6ish? members (I forget how many) that come to my Dynamis LS and of course they come regardless of LS events, and it's never a problem.

The four of us not in the HNM LS wouldn't mind waiting for HNMs to finish, but the windows were only just starting soon, they weren't finishing soon or even within a couple hours, so it was either go or cancel, not wait, unless we wanted to be awake at 4am in the morning.


So yeah, that's what made this come up. Trying to avoid drama as much as possible, I just want to know what the general consensus on this is, and it seems to be very mixed. If their LS was more skilled, I might be ok with it, but it's not worth it to me to cancel my events so they can help some people they hardly know get gear. Someone who thinks Martial Body is God, for example.

[layoneil]

1) would not ask someone who has started Salvage/Dynamis/Limbus to leave for any reason.

2) would not allow someone to start a Salvage/Dynamis/Limbus if it overlaps a King's window (given that we knew of the ToD more than 12 hours before 1st window).

3) would not allow someone to start a Salvage/Dynamis/Limbus if an HNM such as Tiamat/Cerberus/Khimara was claimed prior to their group entering.

[Iced]

A) People inside a HNMls should have inside Dynamis, doesn't really make sense not to and also should have their own static within the LS to do Salvage since their availability to do outside scheduled events is random.

B) Those not in a HNMls shouldn't do Salvage with those that are in one: See point above.

It isn't fair to other members that aren't in a HNMls to wait or reschedule Salvage or anything else because others have to leave for a King camp. All its doing is wasting everyones time and people end up getting pissed about it. If they can't commit because of something else, best bet is to look elsewhere for members.

[Pacha]

I doubt many share my view, but honestly, I don't think kings should be a priority for experienced LS's anymore...because Salvage is now in the game. Salvage offers full sets of gear that are generally better than King armor. The only thing that Kings really offer is Ridill and Dring. I guess some people like the excitement of trying to claim a King...but after 4+ years of Kings, Salvage seems like a better option.

To anwer the OP's question, our LS doesn't require people to leave Salvage or Dynamis if a King pops but Kings are considered mandatory if no Dynamis or Salvage is going on.

[Rocl]

Is in-house Dynamis really that rare? >_> I've never done it any other way, I'm just asking since you said to completely disregard that possibility in the OP.

[Therin]

In-house Dynamis requires a fairly large linkshell (25+ for the event, which probably translates to at least 40 or 50 active members). Most linkshells these days are smaller, so yeah, it's becoming a lot more rare.

In the shells that I've run, I've always allowed people to continue to do their prescheduled things if HNMs arise. Also, obviously you can't put events on hold for mobs like Khim/Cerb/Tia since their windows are so huge, so I would also excuse people if these mobs popped during their events.

If the mob pops before the event (or seems like it will, day 7 KB or something) and it IS an in-house event like Salvage, I would often cancel until the HNM dies. If the mob pops during the event, though, then the people at said event aren't forced to come until after the event.

That's probably the best way to do it.

Or you could just not do HNMs at all. At this point I'd much rather take that route. :3