Adder Jambiya/Blau

[Slott]

Adder jambiya really isn't that good. On anything worth a damn (Merit +), it doesn't proc. On anything it does proc on, it's piss easy.

[dawdr]

There's always Magnet Knife, the weight effect goes off quite a lot, even on merit mobs. It's cheap, it isn't fancy at all, and you stand a chance of getting laughed at, but by god that thing does proc a lot.

[Vail]

I've tried Adder jambiya/Blau vs Blau/Sirocco

I defiantly felt (and still feel) that blau/sirocco is faster TP gain, more DoT, and only marginally weaker then jambiya/blau for WS.

I didn't really care to try jambiya/sirocco, but I doubt it compares to either of the two above setups.

[QuePsiXI]

Post count will be 2 after this post, if that helps. And post will be made less than an hour after account activation. All of which is a precursor to say:

I didn't do any search, but someone has done extensive math to say that a "permanent" 37 damage weapon "sucks," and a 34 D weapon that enhances critical attacks that *sometimes* happen(20-25% is GODLY, afaik) is so much better?

Please, link me, I'd love to be educated. Right now I'm going after both knives, and tbh, my Elvaan would rather have pure damage than a bonus to crits that don't really seem to apply to my stats/gear preference. Definitely don't enjoy seeing non Thfs with higher crit rates than me, considering I can force mine.

[Nighteagle]

It doesnt add crit hit dmg+20-25%. It was +10% last i heard. Unless you have a crit hit build, I don't really see why X's Knife would outparse Perseus's. and the extra dmg on Perseus's makes it so you dont hit 0s on some end game mobs.

[shihei]

Well, I didn't know how strong X's is but know that I see I would say
Best: Mandau/X's
Second: Persues'/X's
Right?
Unless you whole alliance really can't hit whatever thing Adder can proc on? Then Adder/X's
/thread

[dawdr]

Post count will be 2 after this post, if that helps. And post will be made less than an hour after account activation. All of which is a precursor to say:

I didn't do any search, but someone has done extensive math to say that a "permanent" 37 damage weapon "sucks," and a 34 D weapon that enhances critical attacks that *sometimes* happen(20-25% is GODLY, afaik) is so much better?

Please, link me, I'd love to be educated. Right now I'm going after both knives, and tbh, my Elvaan would rather have pure damage than a bonus to crits that don't really seem to apply to my stats/gear preference. Definitely don't enjoy seeing non Thfs with higher crit rates than me, considering I can force mine.

Well, for one, X's Knife's bonus applies to both hands. So if you're offhanding a Blau Dolch and it gets a critical hit, the 10% bonus applies to it as well. Perseus's Harpe doesn't do anything for you offhand.

Secondly, weapon skill damage is not as big of a deal to Thief as you may think, since it's in the 1/3 of total area, with Sneak Attack/Trick Attack and melee being the other thirds. Melee wise, without the bonus, Perseus's Harpe is better but not by any great amount, but the critical hit bonus does exist and it throws X's Knife well over for melee, and Sneak Attack/Trick Attack are obviously going to be much stronger with X's Knife.

It doesnt add crit hit dmg+20-25%. It was +10% last i heard. Unless you have a crit hit build, I don't really see why X's Knife would outparse Perseus's. and the extra dmg on Perseus's makes it so you dont hit 0s on some end game mobs.

Zeroing out has a lot more to do with low attack than weapon damage. If you're in binary with X's Knife, odds are pretty good that you're not doing any better with Perseus's Harpe.

Honestly, no Thief should ever try for a critical hit build, we simply do not have the means to make one that is worthwhile, but we do still critical, and they aren't exactly uncommon. If you can't see why a 10% bonus to critical hit damage is a big deal I don't know what to tell you.

Well, I didn't know how strong X's is but know that I see I would say
Best: Mandau/X's
Second: Persues'/X's
Right?
Unless you whole alliance really can't hit whatever thing Adder can proc on? Then Adder/X's
/thread

X's Knife/Blau Dolch is better than Perseus's Harpe/X's Knife for everything that isn't pissing people off with your good luck. No idea why you'd ever want to offhand anything else.

[QuePsiXI]

I like that answer.

For clarification, "20-25% is godly" pertained to the fact that if I got 20 questions right on a 100 question quiz, my mom is fucking me up. But 1/5th to 1/4th of Thf hits being critical is like, wtfamazing. So 75% of the time, P Harpe should be better. But that 25% of the time is so awesome, people like X's over P Harpe. Good enough for me.

Still waiting for either to drop, ever. Heh.

[Zoot]

It's a little different than "75% and 25%" of the time too, considering that P. Harpe has relatively little to offer in terms of anything but 4 more base damage, which isn't going to benefit you a great deal at all as a Thief (aside from pretty numbers on weaponskill). It does knock you up into the next weaponskill damage fstr rating, but unless you make use of that it's not going to matter too much.

Getting 100TP faster is almost always going to be better than a little more damage on weaponskill. Think of why we choose to equip haste gear and accuracy over attack items. Your melee damage is important, but if you aren't capping attack (as was stated in dawdr's post) on the 33 base damage weapon then the 37 base damage weapon isn't much of an improvement with your melee either.

[QuePsiXI]

I'm close but I'm not to the point acc wise where I'm meat fulltime. Until that point, I still have the hit for 0 problem more than I'd like on HNMs. So yes, it is exactly the damage bonus that I crave, on tping AND WSing.(In before "you'll hit for 0 anyway" as that would be an excuse not to maximize any job.)

Basically we both see the reasons for P Harpe, but I see it as a benefit, and you see it as superfluous. One man's trash and all that such.

[Zoot]

Ah, assumed you were talking about merits. If you're /WAR with the harpe on HNM it's decent, imo. Otherwise you really don't get the attack to make it useful over similar weapons (x's). Blau is probably better for that though.

[altwight]

Were people really considering Mandau > Mandau/X's?

Mandau not only brings in the awesome stats but it also gives mercy stroke which increases critical hit %. Stack that with X's knife and you've got insta win. Plus, the /X's gives the 10-13% bonus damage to SA/TA. It's a win win situation.



PS: X's knife > Pharpe.

[Nighteagle]

Getting 100TP faster is almost always going to be better than a little more damage on weaponskill. Think of why we choose to equip haste gear and accuracy over attack items. Your melee damage is important, but if you aren't capping attack (as was stated in dawdr's post) on the 33 base damage weapon then the 37 base damage weapon isn't much of an improvement with your melee either.

So even though i get minuetx2 when i exp (or end game), along with other gear like heca+1, cerb mantle+1, and either fire bomblet or using acid bolts on mobs for DEF down... That isnt taking full advantage of the 37 base dmg? I think everyone here can agree that THFs get TP fast enough... I usually have 130 or so when SA or TA is ready (56 sec recast). And i only have haste+11% for TP gain. Get a THF with homam or dusk and they got more than me lol.

[QuePsiXI]

Right right I'm saying what you're saying. But I mean that works for them cool, I again will be pursuing both, and definitely would try out both if they each fell into my lap. I'm not really out to tell them they're wrong...their evidence is solid, their conclusion is subjective.

Ninja edits.

[Zoot]

I'll usually use WS whenever I have TP and not save it for when SA or TA is ready (depending on how long the timer is, anyways), but of course I'm speaking merits. The delay actually isn't a huge deal, anyways. I'm going to assume you're talking about WS and not melee damage since you mentioned hecatomb. If you are meeting fSTR cap then that's great, not alot of thieves actually do. And you aren't hitting your attack cap for melee damage, even for a 33 damage weapon, that's for sure (as nin sub at least). So adding damage points instead of attack is less effective if you're zeroing out.

There are some benefits to P.Harpe, higher damage on SA and TA, slightly higher melee swings, possibility of higher weaponskill damage, that I'm not denying. But weighed against mobs where you actually are getting Sirocco additional effect, or at any time against X's knife, the knife is about the same and far worse for dps respectivley.

If I had this knife, at my current state using Blau/Sirroco, I would probably mainhand it. But I will use X's/Blau once it drops :3

Man, I ninja edit like everything.

[Nighteagle]

I have to disagree with you zoot. I used to main hands Harpe and sub blau dolch. Then i got Perseus's and DID notice an increase in WS dmg along with SA + TA. I won't deny X's Knife is a great dagger, within the top 5. But go figure the % someone criticals on normal hits for what... 50-65 dmg? thats an extra 5-6 dmg where im sure Perseus would have already done that much on non-critical hits. now when you stack X's on SA or TA, theres an extra 25-35ish dmg. and Perseus's, like you said, has more SA+TA dmg of probably 25-35ish. Then it comes down to delay. 0.09 difference OMFG. 0.09!?! GTFO! To top this, Perseus's WS did about 100-150ish more dmg for me than harpe (dmg:35) on merit mobs (stacked with SA or TA). And did i forget to mention resist petrification? hell yea! dynamis scorpions = FAIL (if you cant see this last part being sarcastic, then YOU fail)

[dawdr]

Individual normal hits, Perseus's Harpe will be slightly higher, but we aren't talking about anything huge. But if you're geared like and buffed like you've suggested (double Minuets, Cerberus Mantle +1), then your critical hits should be much higher than 50, because that's what your normal hits should look like. On Greater Colibri with no buffs or food my criticals average around 100, and that puts me in the 75 range on normal mobs.

I also don't know where you're pulling your Sneak Attack or Trick Attack numbers from, but I was solidly over 400 on both on Trolls the other night, with spikes into the 500 range. From your numbers, it sounds to me like you don't actually gear for these abilities, and that's a pretty big mistake in my book. Anyway, the base damage on Perseus's Harpe is basically having three more dexterity or agility than X's Knife has, without taking the bonus into account.

I'm not saying that Perseus's Harpe is a bad dagger or anything, but you're off-base if you think it has any lead over X's Knife, especially if you're stacking weapon skills like you mentioned.

[sakurato]

Getting 100TP faster is almost always going to be better than a little more damage on weaponskill. Think of why we choose to equip haste gear and accuracy over attack items. Your melee damage is important, but if you aren't capping attack (as was stated in dawdr's post) on the 33 base damage weapon then the 37 base damage weapon isn't much of an improvement with your melee either.

So even though i get minuetx2 when i exp (or end game), along with other gear like heca+1, cerb mantle+1, and either fire bomblet or using acid bolts on mobs for DEF down... That isnt taking full advantage of the 37 base dmg? I think everyone here can agree that THFs get TP fast enough... I usually have 130 or so when SA or TA is ready (56 sec recast). And i only have haste+11% for TP gain. Get a THF with homam or dusk and they got more than me lol.

i don't think thf naturally TP fast enough... fast enough to me would mean having 100tp every 30sec to sa/ws and ta/ws, not always an easy feat.

[Nighteagle]

lol, bird camps... i got 8/8 marksmanship merits and i cant land bolts without sushi there. I really dont care for Birds... I like meriting off mamools. And with double mineut there, my normal hits are about 40-50 with crits @ 70-80 (havnt merited in awhile, your right about my previous post being wrong). But thats still not that much more DMG on criticals of 70-80 dmg, and wouldnt the extra DMG on perseus's also proc on criticals? not just normal.

[sakurato]

I would be surprised if Mandau > Mandau/X's. I guess I don't know all the fancy math well enough but last time I looked into X's it was insane.

you do know that tatami shield has str+5 for mercy stroke right? And with WAR sub you get double attack, berserk, warcry, attack bonus(lol+10), and more STR stats for Mecry Stroke. You still think your gonna be "surprised" when Mandaus beats Mandau/x's? lol

Sakurato's head will explode after reading this.

booo didn't even see this till now... and yes, it blew up!