18 versus 21

[archibaldcrane]

drinking poison at any age, should carry with it any darwinian consequences that may happen.

Yeah. I mean, fuck all the innocent people they take with them (if they actually die, drunks often survive accidents while innocents do not). That's obviously just a selection pressure to stay indoors.

Yeah, and what about all the victims of drunk crane operators, or drunk airline pilots, or drunk circumcision practitioners, or drunk nail-gun operators?

Oh wait, drinking alcohol doesn't force you to do things that are really dangerous to other people, like driving while drunk? I thought that the instant you did a shot you immediately reached for your keys.

[noblemountain]

drinking poison at any age, should carry with it any darwinian consequences that may happen.

Yeah. I mean, fuck all the innocent people they take with them (if they actually die, drunks often survive accidents while innocents do not). That's obviously just a selection pressure to stay indoors.

Yeah, and what about all the victims of drunk crane operators, or drunk airline pilots, or drunk circumcision practitioners, or drunk nail-gun operators?

Oh wait, drinking alcohol doesn't force you to do things that are really dangerous to other people, like driving while drunk? I thought that the instant you did a shot you immediately reached for your keys.

i meant that sentence in as far as harming their own bodies by drinking poison. he, while a lil assholish, is correct in that drinking doesn't make you drive.

[Correction]

I'd argue that the status quo is that once you are an adult, you obtain the rights of every other adult. This law is a clear aberration to the status quo, of which there are very few.

That is not the status quo. The status quo is that departments are free to draw lines on what makes you an adult. The justice system, for example, can decide you're an adult well before you turn 18 if your crimes warrant it. So do departments of health services when it comes to things like marriage licenses. You arguing what the status quo should be does not make it the status quo.

The law is consistent with the actual status quo. The only thing it's inconsistent with is the desires of 18-20 year-olds looking for a rubber stamp on their vices.

[Alleya]

drinking poison at any age, should carry with it any darwinian consequences that may happen.

Yeah. I mean, fuck all the innocent people they take with them (if they actually die, drunks often survive accidents while innocents do not). That's obviously just a selection pressure to stay indoors.

Yeah, and what about all the victims of drunk crane operators, or drunk airline pilots, or drunk circumcision practitioners, or drunk nail-gun operators?

Oh wait, drinking alcohol doesn't force you to do things that are really dangerous to other people, like driving while drunk? I thought that the instant you did a shot you immediately reached for your keys.

i meant that sentence in as far as harming their own bodies by drinking poison. he, while a lil assholish, is correct in that drinking doesn't make you drive.

Do you deny that drunk people are more likely to be involved in a fatal accident of any kind than a sober one?

[noblemountain]

drinking poison at any age, should carry with it any darwinian consequences that may happen.

Yeah. I mean, fuck all the innocent people they take with them (if they actually die, drunks often survive accidents while innocents do not). That's obviously just a selection pressure to stay indoors.

Yeah, and what about all the victims of drunk crane operators, or drunk airline pilots, or drunk circumcision practitioners, or drunk nail-gun operators?

Oh wait, drinking alcohol doesn't force you to do things that are really dangerous to other people, like driving while drunk? I thought that the instant you did a shot you immediately reached for your keys.

i meant that sentence in as far as harming their own bodies by drinking poison. he, while a lil assholish, is correct in that drinking doesn't make you drive.

Do you deny that drunk people are more likely to be involved in a fatal accident of any kind than a sober one?

if you're asking if more people get in wrecks sober or drunk...i'll bite. if you mean are they more likely to wreck drunk or sober...then i don't think that's really an argument. i didn't attack your point in any way...just stated that if morons wanna destroy their bodies with poison...fuck 'em. i think drunk driving should have much stiffer penalties than what there are to dissuade the idiots for thinking they can just walk if they get caught.

[Rigor]

Smoking pot is already illegal, that isn't going to change. After these kids learn how harsh our punishments are for smoking pot, they'll stop...

Except for the punishment for pot is not harsh. DUI's are rape you up the ass charges.

[archibaldcrane]

I'd argue that the status quo is that once you are an adult, you obtain the rights of every other adult. This law is a clear aberration to the status quo, of which there are very few.

The law is consistent with the actual status quo. The only thing it's inconsistent with is the desires of 18-20 year-olds looking for a rubber stamp on their vices.

This is the most epic circular logic I've ever seen. The legal age should remain at 21 because that's the status quo, because the law says it's 21. Amazing.

By your logic the age should've never changed in 1984, since the status quo wasn't 21 in 1983.

[Beckwin]

sure they're more likely to cause an accident, but alcohol doesn't exist so you can fuck up behind the wheel.

cops that aren't busy busting dorm/house parties can be out looking for drunk drivers.

[Correction]

I'd argue that the status quo is that once you are an adult, you obtain the rights of every other adult. This law is a clear aberration to the status quo, of which there are very few.

The law is consistent with the actual status quo. The only thing it's inconsistent with is the desires of 18-20 year-olds looking for a rubber stamp on their vices.

This is the most epic circular logic I've ever seen. The legal age should remain at 21 because that's the status quo, because the law says it's 21. Amazing.

By your logic the age should've never changed in 1984, since the status quo wasn't 21 in 1983.

What?

You said:

I'd argue that the status quo is that once you are an adult, you obtain the rights of every other adult.

I said:

That is not the status quo. It's an idealized statement of what you want the world to be.
The law is only inconsistent with what your argument of what the status quo should be.
That does not make the law 'inconsistent with the status quo.'

and I still say:

The legal age should remain at 21 because to move it to 18 would have a negative effect on drinking by young people.

[Ryushii]

My personal opinion is that if we lower the drinking age, then it should be done in small steps. A giant leap from 21 to 18 would lead to far too many temporary reprecussions, especially considering the way drinking gets handled in high school. However, I would completely support a bill to make the drinking age 20. Really, 20 year olds are generally in college, where drinking is common and acceptable, and honestly lowering the age by 1 year would have very few instant reprecussions. Then, after a span of time, the government could just lower it to 19, with the same results, followed by 18 in the same manner. Personally, I am hesistant to support lowering the age to 18, mainly because high school seniors are 18 (myself included). I don't really trust quite a many of my peers to deal with buying alcohol: it's bad enough that they have it in the first place. But that's my two cents.

[Plow]

99% of American culture revolves around beer, they just wanna give people as long as possible before they enter the drunken stupor of American life forever.


I'm just kidding and the laws are dumb, but the only reason I can see them being supported is that so much of the culture does revolve around getting drunk and the laws make people at least try to find something else to do.

[Tricen]

I wrote a long paper on this my freshman year in college, arguing that 18 would actually lower the amount of alcohol related deaths. I had a ton of sources for support, I wish I still had the paper somewhere. I remember one stat that we had the oldest legal drinking age in the west and the highest DUI rate/accident rate per capita of any country. Most kids still live with their parents at 18, so parents are able to teach their children how to safely consume alcohol, whereas at 21, you are out on your own and usually don't have your parent to lean on.

I wouldn't doubt that it would lower the statistics. But not right away, you'd prolly see a spike high in the stats, and then a gradual decline.

I love it when someone responds to a researched argument with their personal opinion as if it was fact.

k, explain to me where I said I was speaking fact and not opinion?

[Vigilia]

I just don't get it why you all are arguing about random numbers as if they matter and have some control over your lives.

It doesn't make any difference where in the world you're from or what your government says that the legal age is, stupid kids get drunk regardless. In the 1920s Finland also had the prohibition that left a heritage of relatively uptight alcohol sales laws and in the mid-1700s there were even prohibitions on coffee in the kingdom of Sweden that we were a part of at that time (damn that caffeine). When I was growing up the drinking ages were 16 for light beers and cider, 18 for proper beers/wines and 21 for liqours. I personally believe that if you have to have government regulation then phasing in drinks like that is a better system compared to what I've seen here in UK and over in the States.

I don't think arbitrary laws should matter that much but they do, and they reflect a certain mentality on the whole nation and the people who grow up with the said system. Nothing's perfect though and it comes down to the generation that went before you and what they teach you more than anything. I had plenty of stupid mates in my years in secondary school who'd get a bag full of beer cans and go sit in the town park's public BBQ spot "hiding" from their parents drinking in the weekends before they were allowed in bars/pubs at 18. I had the luxury of having very sensible parents, we had small glasses of beer/wine with meals from age 10 onwards if we wanted to so by the time I hit 16 it was like "meh, beer's old news". It felt weird moving to the States when I was 18 and being treated like I had no brain of my own when it came to drinking. And then at 20 when I went to Ireland for college I drank myself senseless far too many times in the first couple of months. Teaching kids how to drink gradually is better than altogether banning them because like already pointed out so much of the underage drinking is all about the rebellion and the (supposed) glamour of it. If you make alcohol something trivial it takes away the glamour. If there is no line to cross or the line is blurred, it doesn't feel like such a big deal anymore.