Convincing the haters ;)

[Tulun]

Now, my dilemma:

I want to convince my shell to test out nin/drk, but on my backwards server, there is literally NO nin or RDM tanks in existence. Nothing serious is tanked on either job (I've actually seen a JP LS use RDM sometimes on Khimaira.. that's about it). There is a huge negative stigma on basically everyone I've chatted about with that NIN can't hold hate or tank anything seriously (I wish I was kidding).

Now, I'd still like to prove it, since it's blatantly obvious it can be done according to basically every other freakin' server but this one. Any resources I can point them to, mind control techniques, etc? I'd rather not have to pull teeth just for them to give me a shot. (Or give me a freakin' bard... yeah, I was mocked that I had to ask for one. Argh!)

[Valisk]

What server are you on so I can know who to make fun of for living in the Stone Age?

The only convincing is actual experimentation and if your shell wont go out on a whim to let you (or whoever) actually try it out then you are stuck (or need to find a new ls/server). Just make sure that if they do give you a shot, dont blow it. Or they'll never let you live it down and will be narrowminded forever.

[Tulun]

Siren. I'm not afraid to admit it. lolz.

My favourite was this: A guy told me that NIN couldn't tank Cerberus cause he'd only seen plds do it, and they often had Aegis! way too hard for nins...

[Tajin]

Belkin's livejournal is a good starting point, and I think though not sure that Ryko LJ has some info.

http://belkinator.livejournal.com I think

[vagus]

A good pld/nin is still the best tank in game, however nin/drk and rdm/nin is very effective. I would prefer a decent nin/drk over a decent pld/nin. Nin/drk isn't always the best tank for all mobs in game. Depending on what your LS fights, pld/nin may still be the best option. Do you guys do sky only? Kings? Sea? All these things need to be considered before suggest nin/drk to your LS.

[Judai]

Your ppl fail. NIN/DRK pretty much destroys PLD in hate. PLD/NIN is just better for low man shit since they can Cure themselves as well. Just keep bugging them to let you tank a gimp god and challenge their PLDs to hold hate off you with no TA, only the best ones will be able to keep up at all.

[BerenTebogo]

I'd come PLD/NIN over NIN/DRK any day, there's very few people I'd trust to keep me alive on NIN/DRK if shit goes bad, and that's coming from somebody who is @2200 bynes from kikoku.

NIN/DRK is amazing, PLD/NIN is better, unless you would literally trust the entire claim of the mob and survival of the fight on your support, and not on your ability to tank, then don't go NIN/DRK. You'll quickly find that any mob worth fighting puts you in situations out of your control often no matter how good you are.

[Mafai]

tiamat firaga3 double attack is death to ninja/dark

[Therin]

tiamat firaga3 double attack is death to ninja/dark

If Firaga III goes off you deserve it. <_>

Also, to the OP: Either leave your linkshell or level PLD, whichever would be easier for you.

[Lyramion]

tiamat firaga3 double attack is death to ninja/dark

NO WAIII





I seriously see no reason on the NIN vs PLD debate. Tanking lots of Tiamats, Khims n Cerberus as NIN/DRK - a mix of both is what I like best. That is the max of 1 DRK/NIN plus 1 or 2 PLD/NIN.

A NIN/DRK can control the "hate flow" of the fight. You can hold back a bit to share hate but you can instantly glue hate back to you if you need.

[Kaeko]

1) Shit is situational. You'll still find some situation where NIN/WAR is best so it always depends.

2) If your group uses PLD/NIN and it works, I can see the merit in not wanting to fix something not broken.

3) All 3 work but there are certain mobs where 1 will excel over the others.

Our LS actually uses only NIN/DRK and possibly RDM/NIN every so often. I personally think NIN/DRK is the best when (1) you can abuse stun (e.g. Tiamat) and (2) you can limit magical damage taken by either resist set or just mob has no big magical attacks. We have Aegis PLDs but we sort of just use the others out of habit. Really they all work.

If you just have to go out and crown which of the 3 is the best, I'd still say PLD/NIN, even though we never use them. This is because it's the best tank when shit totally hits the fan. The other 2 tanks need a little more prep before throwing them into the gauntlet on something new, but a good PLD/NIN you just send them in and they are pretty much impossible to kill outside of AV or something.

[Weeks]

Square just needs to release two grips in the next update: One -5% Phys DMG, one -10% magic damage. Voila, NIN and PLD are equals again.

But yeah, your server's reasons for disdaining NIN tanks are totally retarded. NIN is better at holding hate, it just doesn't have the survivability

[BerenTebogo]

Square just needs to release two grips in the next update: One -5% Phys DMG, one -10% magic damage. Voila, NIN and PLD are equals again.

But yeah, your server's reasons for disdaining NIN tanks are totally retarded. NIN is better at holding hate, it just doesn't have the survivability

The reason isn't about 5%- dmg here or there, shield is 100% broken in this game.

If NIN got like parrying mastery, or some shit, it'd be a different story, but you get DA'd casting ichi on NIN by tiamat and it can be a quick downward spiral if your support isn't on key, whereas PLD I cast ichi in 321 shield gear, I'm not really worried about it.

[Therin]

Square just needs to release two grips in the next update: One -5% Phys DMG, one -10% magic damage. Voila, NIN and PLD are equals again.

But yeah, your server's reasons for disdaining NIN tanks are totally retarded. NIN is better at holding hate, it just doesn't have the survivability

I'd probably main Iron Ram Lance and the -10% magic damage grip for most HNMs if they did this and swap on the shield when necessary, so it really wouldn't solve the problem at all, just make PLD even stronger.

Either that or a Capricorn Staff for capped gear Haste.

[orson]

Doesn't matter what job it is if you don't have the experience, gear, and more importantly good support, things will suck.

It's pretty obvious Nin, Pld, and Rdm can all tank really well in given situations so there's not much point in hypothesizing over who's best because it boils down to gear, experience, and support not as much job.

[Weeks]

Yeah, those grips are probably still a little too weak. But I don't mind if they make PLD even stronger (Though they could just be SAM/NIN/MNK grips if it came to that), they just need to do something to make NIN a little more difficult to kill when the shit hits the fan. If PLD is invincible but NIN is more survivable, still holds hate better outside of zerg situations, and has the benefit of Stun-locking some HNMs, that's a situation I can live with.

[Tulun]

Thanks for the replies. And I agree, PLD is a good tank; I just hate the implication it's the only tank

I'll show some of the blogs if they'll read it. I will also try to out hate the main tank around.

[deced]

If your LS doesn't care to experiment with NIN/DRKs and rely on PLD/NIN, that's really their sideshow. Your best recourse, in my opinion, is to take your NIN/DRK and a bunch of friends, and do stuff on your own time. You're not going to convince people with words if they don't want to listen. It doesn't matter how good an argument you make, or how many times you link to BG and people's LJs with documented proof that it is a viable tank. For some people, they'll simply not care to admit something obvious til you put it infront of their face. If they don't want you NIN/DRK tanking LS events, fine. Go grab some friends and tank shit on your own time. Eventually, your LS members will start to figure out that it does work. Go camp some Byakko pops, bring 5-8 friends, and tank Byakko with NIN/DRK. Go finish off an Omega set, and tank Omega on your NIN/DRK. Pop and tank a Temperance straight up. Go fight Hydra low man style. Or Jorm. There are plenty of HNM from any range of difficulty that sit up all the time cause they don't drop anything worthwhile on most servers. You probably won't make a huge ton of gil while doing it, but many of them won't intrude on your LS's schedule of events, are mildly fun, and you get to tank on whatever the hell you please. And eventually people will start to take notice.

[RKenshin]

What kind of stone age are people still living in? I seriously did a double take on the date for these posts, just because this is all of the sos from like 2 years ago.

******************

It depends on the player, their equipment, their skill, and their support. That will make or break how well your tank can tank 100 times more than what job they're on, always, for any situation, between RDM NIN and PLD tanks. Hell, even other jobs could apply.

******************

Isn't that like 2 year-old information?

In all seriousness, there is no real significant difference on any mob between the three choices of tanks. All three of them can get hate fast and maintain the cap at near equal footing, all three of them can survive with minimal support, all three of them can hit the magic reduction cap, all three of them can take minimal physical damage, and all three of them contribute to ease of battle in different ways (through self-cure/flash, or stun and debuffs, or cure and debuffs, etc).

Just because you have bad experiences with/as one kind of tank doesn't make it shitty for the situation. I see people talking about getting the shit kicked out of them on NIN as Tiamat, and now all of a sudden NIN isn't good for it? lol

I really don't see what people are doing wrong as this is seriously a 1-3 year-old argument, but even the 'pissy ass Tiamats at <10% couldn't kill my NIN in between Ichis and/or in less than 4-5 hits with MS... I'd have to be retarded and try to die to really get killed by that at this point. Without shadows it'd normally hit for 130-210, which even when crit is hardly life-threatening with 1.4-1.6k HP. Meanwhile I've seen PLDs get 2 and 3 hit since (obviously) relying on shield block with shit defense won't always save you, does this mean PLDs suck at tanking it too? No. And it's retarded to base an assumption like that off of it.

Support hardly changes anything either. All three need about the same support to work at minimum (just different kinds), and if you need more then you're doing something wrong. In fact, I'd even wager NIN is the best at getting by with no support, just because with loleva gear you can reduce any mob's accuracy to shit and keep it debuffed, and combined with an extra shadow it's the lowest chance of taking any damage.

unless you would literally trust the entire claim of the mob and survival of the fight on your support, and not on your ability to tank, then don't go NIN/DRK. You'll quickly find that any mob worth fighting puts you in situations out of your control often no matter how good you are.

Don't agree, and honestly don't see how that makes sense. You make it sound like PLD/NIN can sit there with absolutely no support, tank the hardest mob solo from 100% to 0%, and have no trouble at all. All tanks depend on a form of support to some extent, but are also capable of self-sustaining themselves for long periods, and you're recommending only PLD can? Maybe one is easier than the others in some ways (ie, PLDs can be lazier about shadows), but ease of play has nothing to do with actual capability of a job.

I don't see how 'especially' NIN requires more support either. Nor how they're put in situations out of their own control where only support can save them... I mean, I guess the best way to exemplify this is list my own experiences but I hate to sound as if I'm bragging... But I've held Fafnir duo with a RDM for 12m waiting for people to gather with no problems, held Jorgy solo for 2m and then with nothing other than just haste and regen + very light curing for 10-15m after recovering from a spike, and recently after a partial wipe to Cerb I was holding it solo at 15% while mages focused on getting melees up (with 12 people there and low support). All of which I simply spammed debuffs on, counted shadows, and barely took any damage. Even when I get hit, on something like Cerberus he only does like 90-150 damage.

What part of any of that was out of my (or someone else in the same situation) control, and putting the fight in jeopardy, that PLD/NIN would've changed or done better? (serious question, not rhetorical)

[Weeks]

It's nice that Fafnir decided not to wing you right after you had cast Ni. Imagine that it had happened. On PLD, you cast Ichi and have about a 65% chance of a shield block processing so the spell goes through. The rest of the time, you've got a significant edge in HP and defensive job abilities to survive (Because you know as well as I do that being interrupted mid-Ichi on an unelegied HNM means you're going to take two more hits before your next opening to cast it again).

On NIN, you can macro in a full evasion build for roughly a 30-50% chance at evading the next attack. The rest of the time, you are going to get hit hard because you're sitting at roughly 200 DEF with little to no damage reduction gear. Alternatively, you can swap to your turtle build and attempt a few Ichis and maybe get lucky. In these situations, you take a little less damage than a PLD would in his standard /NIN tanking gear, you have a much poorer chance of getting shadows up, and you have fewer HP.

In a worst-case scenario, PLD's survivability is significantly better than a NIN's. Getting lucky enough to avoid a worst-case scenario for 12 minutes is not what we're talking about here.