Convincing the haters ;)

[BerenTebogo]

What kind of stone age are people still living in? I seriously did a double take on the date for these posts, just because this is all of the sos from like 2 years ago.

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It depends on the player, their equipment, their skill, and their support. That will make or break how well your tank can tank 100 times more than what job they're on, always, for any situation, between RDM NIN and PLD tanks. Hell, even other jobs could apply.

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Isn't that like 2 year-old information?

In all seriousness, there is no real significant difference on any mob between the three choices of tanks. All three of them can get hate fast and maintain the cap at near equal footing, all three of them can survive with minimal support, all three of them can hit the magic reduction cap, all three of them can take minimal physical damage, and all three of them contribute to ease of battle in different ways (through self-cure/flash, or stun and debuffs, or cure and debuffs, etc).

Just because you have bad experiences with/as one kind of tank doesn't make it shitty for the situation. I see people talking about getting the shit kicked out of them on NIN as Tiamat, and now all of a sudden NIN isn't good for it? lol

I really don't see what people are doing wrong as this is seriously a 1-3 year-old argument, but even the 'pissy ass Tiamats at <10% couldn't kill my NIN in between Ichis and/or in less than 4-5 hits with MS... I'd have to be retarded and try to die to really get killed by that at this point. Without shadows it'd normally hit for 130-210, which even when crit is hardly life-threatening with 1.4-1.6k HP. Meanwhile I've seen PLDs get 2 and 3 hit since (obviously) relying on shield block with shit defense won't always save you, does this mean PLDs suck at tanking it too? No. And it's retarded to base an assumption like that off of it.

Support hardly changes anything either. All three need about the same support to work at minimum (just different kinds), and if you need more then you're doing something wrong. In fact, I'd even wager NIN is the best at getting by with no support, just because with loleva gear you can reduce any mob's accuracy to shit and keep it debuffed, and combined with an extra shadow it's the lowest chance of taking any damage.

unless you would literally trust the entire claim of the mob and survival of the fight on your support, and not on your ability to tank, then don't go NIN/DRK. You'll quickly find that any mob worth fighting puts you in situations out of your control often no matter how good you are.

Don't agree, and honestly don't see how that makes sense. You make it sound like PLD/NIN can sit there with absolutely no support, tank the hardest mob solo from 100% to 0%, and have no trouble at all. All tanks depend on a form of support to some extent, but are also capable of self-sustaining themselves for long periods, and you're recommending only PLD can? Maybe one is easier than the others in some ways (ie, PLDs can be lazier about shadows), but ease of play has nothing to do with actual capability of a job.

I don't see how 'especially' NIN requires more support either. Nor how they're put in situations out of their own control where only support can save them... I mean, I guess the best way to exemplify this is list my own experiences but I hate to sound as if I'm bragging... But I've held Fafnir duo with a RDM for 12m waiting for people to gather with no problems, held Jorgy solo for 2m and then with nothing other than just haste and regen + very light curing for 10-15m after recovering from a spike, and recently after a partial wipe to Cerb I was holding it solo at 15% while mages focused on getting melees up (with 12 people there and low support). All of which I simply spammed debuffs on, counted shadows, and barely took any damage. Even when I get hit, on something like Cerberus he only does like 90-150 damage.

What part of any of that was out of my (or someone else in the same situation) control, and putting the fight in jeopardy, that PLD/NIN would've changed or done better? (serious question, not rhetorical)

I guess I'm looking at it from a race-to-claim perspective, my NIN is geared to the teeth, and before I migrated to Ifrit I tanked EVERYTHING with it, it was a huge culture shock when I had to come PLD to everything and really work to fine-tune my gear.

Now I personally feel that with all my macros just how I like them, every piece of PLD gear in the game sans Aegis, Dring, and Speed belt I have reached a serious comfort zone and I will pull any HNM solo or duo if I know I can get backup within 5 minutes approx, because I feel I can self-sustain myself on an un-enfeebed HNM for a decent amount of time.

Contrarily, my NIN, which I love to death, and have balls-to-the-wall EVA setup for, arhats +1 / terra / denali DMG -% set, capped parrying, I feel is still subject to, at the very least a slow, elegy, or haste, putting me at a disadvantage when pulling under pressure. Sure I can blind it with max NIN skill+ aside from sea cape (yes, even koga feet +1) slow 1 it, and para it, although slow will never land from me on some mobs without ES.

I just fail to see what I do when I go through the first ichi > ichi > ni on an un-debuffed, non-caster mob, like Cerberus who is going to eat my shadows to shit. Sure his ACC sucks and I can throw full EVA+ on for 1-2 attack rounds til timers are up, but if I DO get hit it's going to be for 600+ in EVA gear. I could throw on -% DMG gear and full DEF and with a taco take about 150-180 dmg per hit for same amount of time, barring also any double-attacks, interrupts on pre-casting DA's and TP moves.

I love NIN to death, and in a perfect world I would 6-man Cerb with 2 NIN/DRKs every time it's up with my soon-to-be-finished Kikoku, but the reality of the game these days is that everything is a race and the first 5-10 minutes matter more than anything else. Being able to sit there on PLD with max-shield gear in my ichi, to negate interrupts, AFv2 feet for a little extra love from sentinel, flash, Hauteclaire, and jelly ring when shadows are down, cure IV, chivalry, 3/tick refresh, 4/tick in ToAU zones, protect / shell, shield bash, you get the idea.

In a perfect world, go NIN/DRK, and revel in the awesomeness of it, but the game hasn't been perfect for a while and I'd rather suck it up and come PLD on a competition claim to make sure my linkshell actually claims the mob, and retains claim on the mob, and that I can feel comfortable pulling knowing that I can keep myself alive if I get there first. Hell, often times I have to pull over other people who have been logged out there from another LS, and survive while being watched by a money-hungry holding party.

Geez, this was way longer than I intended so I guess Cliff Notes: NIN/DRK is amazing, but unless you can saunter up to the mob with at least a full-competent party and not feel rushed, I don't think it's the right choice for solo tanking or holding, from the perspective of somebody who often has to claim first.

Edit: because I wear GLT feet +1 in my oh-shit macro not askar feet, that's my terror macro, sorry

[RKenshin]

It's nice that Fafnir decided not to wing you right after you had cast Ni. Imagine that it had happened.

Imagine it? It did happen lol... Fafnir has TP regen, you know, and not like it spams self-buffs or anything. At a few points I was even terrored for quite a bit.

And if you really want to get into anti-NIN situations, how about an anti-PLD? What good does shield blocking do when you're terrored and unable to recast shadows? And now taking full damage every hit? Things can get ugly just as easily for PLD.

On PLD, you cast Ichi and have about a 65% chance of a shield block processing so the spell goes through. The rest of the time, you've got a significant edge in HP and defensive job abilities to survive (Because you know as well as I do that being interrupted mid-Ichi on an unelegied HNM means you're going to take two more hits before your next opening to cast it again).

There's no debate about PLD having better JAs and slightly higher HP, but that's not the only semantic you can compare. I could just as easily say NIN will evade, parry, and get more shadows up faster as an advantage too.

All together, I'd estimate (feel free to correct) that NIN will evade about 10-20% more without using eva sets, parry about 5-10% more, of course the 4th shadow, and also have about 1-3 seconds lower recast. With eva gear and being completely anal about things, you can push 30-60% higher eva than a PLD. This is on top of being able to slow, paralyze, and blind many mobs if/when support is unable to, and being able to stun.

Obviously comparing that to defensive JAs and spells is like comparing apples to oranges, but it's not like NIN doesn't have anything on its plate to compete with.

On NIN, you can macro in a full evasion build for roughly a 30-50% chance at evading the next attack. The rest of the time, you are going to get hit hard because you're sitting at roughly 200 DEF with little to no damage reduction gear. Alternatively, you can swap to your turtle build and attempt a few Ichis and maybe get lucky. In these situations, you take a little less damage than a PLD would in his standard /NIN tanking gear, you have a much poorer chance of getting shadows up, and you have fewer HP.

Depending on the lengths devoted towards evasion gear you can push upwards of 75-85% depending on the mob. Which of course, nowadays isn't frequent or practical with most people having enough haste to seamlessly go from Ni > Ichi > Ni without evading.

However, a NIN not macro-ing def gear is their own fault. If you're comparing a perfect PLD and a perfect NIN, which is the only fair way to really do this, you need to realize a NIN will be taking almost half the damage a PLD would take in an unshield-blocked hit.

HP arguments are still as significant as they were ~2-3 years ago where people used to tank in full HP. As long as you have over ~1.2k there's no real difference in survivability between two decked tanks, because nothing in this game is going to kill you from 1.2k instantly or even within 5-10 seconds with the best gear and common sense for either tank job.

In a worst-case scenario, PLD's survivability is significantly better than a NIN's. Getting lucky enough to avoid a worst-case scenario for 12 minutes is not what we're talking about here.

Because Fafnir hitting for 100 damage 2-3 obviously would've taken a NIN down? lol I could say the same for PLD, where getting terrored while casting ichi is way more of a tank-killer for PLD than hurricane wing after Ni is for NIN. With NIN, you'll take ~300 from wing, get hit for ~100 damage a few times in between, and be done with over 50% HP left. With PLD, you'll be taking twice the damage for however long it lasts, which can be rather lengthy. Even if you switch on Terra's staff, you're still taking more damage.

And as a side-note, in a face-tanking competition, a decked NIN will not take significantly more if not less damage over time than a decked PLD. Obviously this is discounting attempting to cast shadows at all... But really lol. It's easy math here.

Over 100 hits, assuming 400 base damage from the mob, NIN evades 15% more, parries 5% more, PLD has Aegis with 65% shield block-rate, both have Shadow Mantle and the best gear possible for their jobs.

                     PLD              NIN
Eva%              5%              20%
Parry%            5%              10%
Shield%          65%              -
Shadow          ~1/10        ~1/10

Swings            100              100
TTL Hits           90               70 
-Physical         -22%           -50%

TTL Dmg.Tak.   28080         14000

Portion of
Shield+Shadow
taken off:        14118              -

Total After
Shadow:          12564         12200

Obviously this isn't counting anything outside face tanking, since there are too many other factors like ninjutsu, sentinel, flash, stun, etc. But, this math is rather solid with everything involved being based on percents.

[BerenTebogo]

I'm not gonna bother quoting and shit, but most good PLDs have a Terror macro, assuming NIN is so good when you gear it well vs. a PLD who isn't trying isn't a good argument.

Also your parry rate is assuming NIN has capped or near capped parrying, I do, you do, how many other people have capped parrying just sitting around?

I don't know that many, maybe it's just around here. And your chart is very inaccurate because for a good amount of fights the only damage you'll take face-tanking will be prefaced by sentinel, so take 90% off it. Like I said, you want to compare A+ NIN to C+ PLD, have fun, you can do it all day.

A+ to A+...I think it's a reality you're not willing to see, as I wasn't when I first came to this server, I overcame my biases, but only once I looked at everything fairly.

Edit: Also, shadow mantle is universally retarded for PLD besides terror macro.

Edit 2: I guess I didn't really clearly read the point of that chart, so disputing it is pointless since the situation isn't viable to begin with other than just throwing it out there I guess.

[RKenshin]

If I'm assuming the PLD has Aegis, I can't assume the NIN has capped Parrying. Is having capped Parry more rare than Aegis now? I went form 250 to 269 in a few days...

Counting factors outside of face tanking is retarded, just like I just said. Because while you have Sentinel/Flash/listlist, NIN also has ninjutsu/stun/listlist... And it's an incredibly amount of retarded math to figure out exactly what the effect on each is.

Sentinel would reduce damage, Flash would have a chance of evading, etc.

Ninjutsu would reduce the # of swings hit on the NIN, so would Stun, etc.

But how do you compare them? You really can't without getting incredibly detailed. That's why, I said it's just a face tanking competition. So no, both sides have factors in favor of them purposefully excluded.

EDIT: And, I did put details about PLD changing gear for terror. But, that doesn't change that they're still taking more damage during the same time, and unable to act. It's less reduction and a lower chance to evade.

EDIT2: If using shadow on PLD is unacceptable for face tanking, then add on another 2k damage taken for the PLD.

[BerenTebogo]

Yeah I edited in that I didn't really read the preface of what the chart was for, however, my shield macro has the exact same shield proc-rate as Aegis PLD, since Koenig Shield can hit 60-65% easy with full gear.

Aegis can just do it with about 305-310 skill, but if I'm only putting it on in my ichi macro and after wing / wipe shadows macro, what does it matter?

Aegis is great, but what it has over K. Shield is MDB and higher DEF, but both shields have the same proc-rate cap so it's negligible for that aspect.

[RKenshin]

Aegis is also 75% damage reduction, no? Which is unreachable by your shield?

I assumed capped at 65% block-rate, with 75% damage reduction on shield blocks.

I'm a little unfamiliar of shield block specifics.

[BerenTebogo]

It reduces a bit more damage, I wouldn't put an exact % on it other than the DEF of Aegis over the DEF of K. Shield, admittedly, I'm a NIN lover, I don't know the exact math for DEF reduction by shield either, but it's not a huge amount more on aegis and it's only based on the actual DEF of the shield.

[RKenshin]

I think it's a 60-65% reduction cap on tower shields (size 4), and Aegis is 75%. But don't quote me on that, going purely off of a scratchy memory + educated guess.

But, Kaiser is a kite shield, and size 3. So that's about 50% reduction?


EDIT: And, in response to your longer post on NIN/DRK.. I think we were talking about completely different things.

In reading your first post in this thread, the impression you gave me is that you're already with a fully ally at an HNM and your NIN/DRK tank can't work without significant amounts of support from that ally. To the point where having it as a tank was a risk to the entire alliance. Which completely blew my mind.

However, your other post is merely saying that, in a race to an HNM you're going to fair better on NIN alone/almost alone than PLD. This, I would not argue against as a personal matter of preference. I would likely prefer PLD for that situation as well, as it's a completely different story.

But, I still believe NIN is capable of doing it on similar levels with a completely different approach. It'd be a lot like you said, with debuffs + assloads of eva + some luck + shadow timing. Obviously THF is in a whole new league of evasion, but I've been hearing about a THF being able to hold Khim solo for 15m+. Doing the same and with almost as much eva, more haste, more shadows, and debuffs, I can see NIN doing the same on just about any non-TP regen mob.

[BerenTebogo]

I could speculate an educated guess but there's a good chance I'd be wrong, for arguments sake 50% seems too low to me.

Anyways we're long off the original topic, my original point is that NIN can't really hold solo / duo as well as PLD in a rush-situation, I know your LS doesn't do many HNMs anymore besides Tiamat? I could be wrong, I don't read your blog.

In a rush-claim situation would you feel more comfortable with, for arguments sake, a NIN/DRK over Aegis PLD?

[RKenshin]

Yeah, that was a misunderstanding.

I thought you were talking about general alliance tanking, not rush-to-claim stuff. I edited my last post with my view on it though.

[BerenTebogo]

Alls well that ends well, back to crafting

[RKenshin]

Back to the exp PT I made wait while whipping out a calculator!

Or at least for now.