Salvage v. King Gear, OR Should Tanks Blink? (Milkman split)

[aurik]

Except the point isn't to take hate and kite, the point is to be more aggressive leading to faster kills and using the movement speed as a safety net.

Pulling hate with big WS followed by kiting with skadi will always result in slower kill. While kiting, pet won't be able to land as many hits and BST will have to stop meleeing for a long period of time in order for pet to re-establish hate. If the mob only has sliver of hp left after BSTs use WS it's better to just finish it off. The best way to speed up kill is to deal as much DOT as possible without pulling hate from the pet and finish the mob with a powerful WS.

You're missing the point. With skadi, it's possible to ratchet up your damage and use the movement speed as a safety net. You seem to have this retarded image of the bst kiting every fight because he's tearing hate, and that's not what's being advocated. Increasing your DoT to the point where periodically you need a safety net will increase your kill speed more than moderating your damage so that you never need a safety net.

Read more carefully.

[quote:22bbn9kn]Lars. Last party I had with Solsovly, his Lars put up 5.5% against a maxed out ridill/purpleberk war + maxed out usukane/relic mnk, with brd+cor buffs that Lars doesn't get. In a more NQ party, that would be easily 10%.

Both Lars and Amigo have similar parse result in merit party consists of 4 DD without BRD - around 7-8%, Lars has better DOT but Amigo will do better if she decides to spam 1000 needles. One of the possible explanation for your parse result is that there were only 3 main DD jobs in your party (WAR, MNK, BST, with some contribution from COR) which gives you false impression that Lars is doing impressive damage. Obviously 5% damage in a 4 DD party is alot more than a 5% parse result in a xp party consists of only 3 main DD jobs.[/quote:22bbn9kn]

Way to miss the point. You're complaining that BST hasn't gotten any real buffs, but you're dead wrong because before they made Lars a whole lot easier to get, it was financially impossible to use Lars or Amigo in XP. And Lars is a huge upgrade over Carrie, hence BST has gotten a real, tangible buff.

Read more carefully.

[Max™]

Are's head vs Turban, Ohat, Askar, Nhead, Ehead
Are's body vs Adaberk, Askar, Berkeon (+1), Osode, Nbody
Are's hands vs Dusk, Ehands, Alky's, Nhands
Are's legs vs Haidate, Nlegs, Relic legs
Are's feet vs Uni, Dusk, Amir, Nfeet

Only the legs are amazingly sexy, and only for WS, the body is an HQ Osode/Byrnie mix for Steel Cyclone, the rest... given the options above, makes it incredibly situational... and I'd rather be able to just zoom zoom scoot around like everyone else without losing the gofast when I get hit (hi2u Sprinter's) but then, I haven't ever had dedicated +movement gear.

[Ahlah]

You're missing the point. With skadi, it's possible to ratchet up your damage and use the movement speed as a safety net. You seem to have this retarded image of the bst kiting every fight because he's tearing hate, and that's not what's being advocated. Increasing your DoT to the point where periodically you need a safety net will increase your kill speed more than moderating your damage so that you never need a safety net.

Read more carefully.

Just make me wonder if you actually have BST at 75. What you are trying to argue is like telling BST they should always try to deal as much damage as possible and attempt to imitigate damage when they pull hate off their pets. The fact is every time when mob turn to BST, BST will have to stop dealing damage and wait for the pet to re-establish hate. That process alone will drop the killing speed. It's worse if BST is actually kiting.

If you still have problem understanding the concept, just imagine a party consists of a tank with no spike hate tool and a DD job.

Way to miss the point. You're complaining that BST hasn't gotten any real buffs, but you're dead wrong because before they made Lars a whole lot easier to get, it was financially impossible to use Lars or Amigo in XP. And Lars is a huge upgrade over Carrie, hence BST has gotten a real, tangible buff.

Read more carefully.

Making Lars easier to obtain is not going to magically turn BST into top DD job. To begin with, Lars has never been as amazing as most ppl think she is.The main weakness of all jugpets is their low acc vs T+ mobs. The only true jugpet that can give BST a chance to outparse other DD job is Amigo when she decides to spam 1000 needles and only costs around 13k to make on Midgard.
All BSTs know natural pets are much stronger than jugpets. SE did a right thing to remove the xp penalty so that BST can use local pets in xp party. Unfortunately there are only limited number of good DC-EM local pets at popular merit camps. There is no charmable mobs in Sea and the only usable pet in Sky is DC Flamigo. No charmable mob in Salvage/Limbus/Einherjar/Nyzul assault.

May be you should consider playing the job to 75 first?

[Veli]

Are's head vs Turban, Ohat, Askar, Nhead, Ehead
Are's body vs Adaberk, Askar, Berkeon (+1), Osode, Nbody
Are's hands vs Dusk, Ehands, Alky's, Nhands
Are's legs vs Haidate, Nlegs, Relic legs
Are's feet vs Uni, Dusk, Amir, Nfeet

Only the legs are amazingly sexy, and only for WS, the body is an HQ Osode/Byrnie mix for Steel Cyclone, the rest... given the options above, makes it incredibly situational... and I'd rather be able to just zoom zoom scoot around like everyone else without losing the gofast when I get hit (hi2u Sprinter's) but then, I haven't ever had dedicated +movement gear.

nice..but like half that shit you listed ares is better than..O hat? Please...

[Max™]

Is it better? yeah.

My point was that I would happily trade it in, since I have a functional equivalent already, but exactly 0 full time movement options.

[aurik]

The fact is every time when mob turn to BST, BST will have to stop dealing damage and wait for the pet to re-establish hate.

Wrong! I guess you're not smart enough to understand what people are suggesting, no wonder you keep getting it wrong.

[quote:ythfpqjl]Way to miss the point. You're complaining that BST hasn't gotten any real buffs, but you're dead wrong because before they made Lars a whole lot easier to get, it was financially impossible to use Lars or Amigo in XP. And Lars is a huge upgrade over Carrie, hence BST has gotten a real, tangible buff.

Read more carefully.

Making Lars easier to obtain is not going to magically turn BST into top DD job. [/quote:ythfpqjl]
Wait wait wait, who said anything about "top DD job"? You said BST hasn't gotten anything to make it a better DD job, that's patently false.

Nice try though.

Maybe you should consider playing the job to 75 first?

Weak argument.

[algrensan]

The quicker you get to WS = more damage over time. The entire logic of Samurai (job) is what all other DDs should work towards: getting to 100% TP the quickest way possible.

If my Ninja did Samurai WS damage on anything harder than merit mobs, I'd focus on the 9 round build. Sadly, it does not, and with double attack I usually reach a WS in fewer rounds anyway.

Just to be clear, to go to a 9 round build you're talking about giving up a pretty nice chunk of acc, attack, haste, and DW. I don't know about other ninjas, but most of my damage comes from actual DoT, not Spike. In theory the 9 round build sounds pretty cool, but I just can't see it panning out in practice. Feel free to parse me wrong, if it's better I'll switch my stuff

Here's my melee gear:

Senj/Perdu, Fire Bomblet
Turban (kabuto/Ohat WS), Hope, Suppa (Fenrir/Merman/Diabolos swaps for WS), Brutal
Koga/Ninja+1/Osode/Haub, Dusk Gloves/Koga Tekko/O Kote, Rajas/Iota/Ulth
Cerberus mantle, Swiftbelt/Warwolf/Lifebelt, Byakkos, Fuma/Rutters/Koga+1(night WS)

I'm 2/3 on about 5 salvage sets across my jobs, when luck turns my way those feet will be pretty nice -_-; Stupid bee.

You should be able to figure out what I TP in, I tried to note some of the WS pieces. I change gear- a lot. I'm sure there is stuff I'm forgetting, but this is basically it. If you want I can post pictures later in the gear thread, but I really didn't think this was the place. Basically, I may not be all white boxes, but I like to think it's not gimp by any stretch. That said, I'd wear my current gear over a full usu set for about anything other than looking good.

And because it may be asked, my combat merits are capped, etc etc.

sorry no parses here. you say that a 9-attack round build for nin gives up a pretty nice chunk of accuracy, attack, and "dual wield." i did the math and didn't see full usukane setup making a huge sacrifice in those stats. nq haubergeon setup tied for attack and koga chainmail setup had 6 more attack but both of those setups had less accuracy than full usukane setup. but when you convert str/dex into attack/accuracy, the picture seems to change. as for "dual wield," you already know that "TP per hit is calculated using the reduced Delay." yes, the last 3 setups did have lower delay-but they all took a lot longer to reach 100 TP. i guess you weren't kidding about most of your damage coming from DoT-a whole lot of meleeing and not a lot of WSing. but still...

below is a comparison of 4 gear setups with some differences in bold. i didn't add koga tekko or merits. i apologize if any numbers are incorrect. it's late and i tried to accurately add the numbers up. maybe one can draw their own conclusion about each setup?

Setup #1: Senjuinrikio, Perdu Blade, Fire Bomblet, Usukane Somen, Chivalrous Chain, Ethereal Earring, Brutal Earring, Usukane Haramaki, Usukane Gote, Rajas Ring, Ulthalam's Ring, Cerberus Mantle, Swift Belt, Usukane Hizayoroi, Usukane Sune-Ate

HP+15
STR+27
DEX+18
INT+8
Accuracy+59 (68 after DEX)
Attack+49 (62.5 after STR)
Defense+148
Fire+4
Evasion+34
Enmity+8
Critical Hit Rate+6%
"Counter"+2
"Store TP"+20
"Subtle Blow"+10
Haste+12% (17% after Set: Enhances Haste effect)
Enhances "Double Attack Effect"
Total Delay: 266.89 (4.4 seconds)
TP Per Hit: 5.6 (18 hits or 9 attack rounds for 100 TP)
39.6 secs to reach 100 TP

Setup #2: Senjuinrikio, Perdu Blade, Fire Bomblet, Walahra Turban, Hope Torque, Suppanomimi, Brutal Earring, Haubergeon, Dusk Gloves, Rajas Ring, Ulthalam's Ring, Cerberus Mantle, Swift Belt, Byakko's Haidate, Fuma Sune-Ate

HP+62
MP+30
STR+13
DEX+25
AGI+5
Accuracy+35 (47.5 after DEX)
Attack+49 (55.5 after STR)
Defense+144
Fire+4
Lightning+50
Evasion-20
Enmity+3
Critical Hit Rate+6%
"Store TP"+6
"Subtle Blow"+5
Haste+20%
Enhances "Double Attack Effect"
Enhances "Dual Wield" effect
Decreases movement speed
Total Delay: 248.559 (4.1 seconds)
TP Per Hit: 4.8 (21 hits or 11 attack rounds for 100 TP)
45.1 secs to reach 100 TP

Setup #3: Senjuinrikio, Perdu Blade, Fire Bomblet, Walahra Turban, Hope Torque, Suppanomimi, Brutal Earring, Koga Chainmail, Dusk Gloves, Rajas Ring, Ulthalam's Ring, Cerberus Mantle, Swift Belt, Byakko's Haidate, Fuma Sune-Ate

HP+62
MP+30
STR+8
DEX+20
AGI+10
Accuracy+37 (47 after DEX)
Attack+55 (59 after STR)
Ranged Accuracy+8
Ranged Attack+8
Defense+145
Fire+4
Lightning+50
Enmity+3
Critical Hit Rate+6%
"Store TP"+6
"Subtle Blow"+5
Haste+20%
Enhances "Double Attack" effect
Enhances "Dual Wield" effect
Decreases movement speed
Total Delay: 248.559 (4.1 seconds)
TP Per Hit: 4.8 (21 hits or 11 attack rounds for 100 TP)
45.1 secs to reach 100 TP

Setup #4: Senjuinrikio, Perdu Blade, Fire Bomblet, Walahra Turban, Hope Torque, Suppanomimi, Brutal Earring, Ninja Chainmail+1, Dusk Gloves, Rajas Ring, Ulthalam's Ring, Cerberus Mantle, Swift Belt, Byakko's Haidate, Fuma Sune-Ate

HP+77
MP+30
STR+8
DEX+25
VIT+5
AGI+10
Accuracy+25 (37.5 after DEX)
Attack+39 (43 after STR)
Defense+145
Fire+4
Lightning+50
Enmity+3
Critical Hit Rate+6%
"Store TP"+6
"Subtle Blow"+5
Haste+20%
Enhances "Double Attack" effect
Enhances "Dual Wield" effect x2
Physical damage: "Shock Spikes" effect
Decreases movement speed
Total Delay: 239.6819 (4.0 seconds)
TP Per Hit: 4.7 (22 hits or 11 attack rounds for 100 TP)
44 secs to reach 100 TP

[Eratosthenes]

You should take note that your delays are for each pair of hits, because of dual wield. Your time-to-100%s are double what they actually would be.

[algrensan]

You should take note that your delays are for each pair of hits, because of dual wield. Your time-to-100%s are double what they actually would be.

thanks-fixed. caught my first brain fart. i knew it looked kinda long to reach 100 tp lol...

[Ahlah]

Ahlah wrote:
The fact is every time when mob turn to BST, BST will have to stop dealing damage and wait for the pet to re-establish hate.

Wrong! I guess you're not smart enough to understand what people are suggesting, no wonder you keep getting it wrong.

All I can suggest is - take your lv20 BST out again and level it to 75, perhaps you will understand why pulling hate off your pet while soloing is a bad idea.

Making Lars easier to obtain is not going to magically turn BST into top DD job.

Wait wait wait, who said anything about "top DD job"? You said BST hasn't gotten anything to make it a better DD job, that's patently false.

Nice try though.

Lars was introduced before TAU release and even then she parses very closely to Amigo which has been present for years. If you read my initial post carefully what I was trying to say was that BST has not received any reall buffs to their DD performance since TAU release. Lars has never had any huge impact on BST DD performance in merit party or endgame activities - but she makes a wonderful pet in Maat fight (because Amigo is a lv75 jugpet and BST cant use it for Maat fight) and fight against anything below EM.
Think of what SE have given to other DD jobs over the last 12 months - 2h weapon adjustment, SAM buffs, DRK buffs, DRG new 2hr and wyvern adjustment, THF dagger base damage adjustment, RNG new abilities, PUPs new frames even MNK get Usukane set. And BST only get the pathetic Sirus Axe, Khimaira and Skadi's set.

Quote:
Maybe you should consider playing the job to 75 first?


Weak argument.

hmm, lv20 BST trying to prove his points on BG forum, I thought that's the kind of posts you will expect to see on Alla?

[Talint]

hmm, lv20 BST trying to prove his points on BG forum, I thought that's the kind of posts you will expect to see on Alla?

You don't need to level a job to 75 to understand how it works.

Additionally, believing that once you're 75 and there's nothing new to learn about said job... That is zammish.

[Ahlah]

You don't need to level a job to 75 to understand how it works.

Additionally, believing that once you're 75 and there's nothing new to learn about said job... That is zammish.

Isn't this supposed to be advanced section? It's like a lv20 MNK telling you the difference between Usukane set and the old haste setup, or a lv20 NIN giving his opinion on how you should tank as NIN/DRK. I dont' think Aurik even has high enough BST to use Leave, let alone access to Lars or Amigo.

BST solo is every different from regular xp party, it is an unique experience and can only be learned by playing the job.

[RKenshin]

Nearly everything end-game can be figured out through math as far as gear and performance optimization goes, and having that job at 75 or not has nothing to do with numbers and equations.

Anything that isn't figured out with math is figured out with common sense and knowledge of the game and job in question. None of which is unique to experiences you have while leveling a job.

Beyond those two facts, there really isn't much room for advantages of a person with a 75 job over a person who has the same job at level 1. There is a level of ignorance of grasping difficulty, true experiences, situations and other minor tidbits but those aren't factors that are being debated in this argument.

[LD]

Gotta say, that's probably the smartest thing I've heard regarding FFXI. and I qualify it only because while it does extend to most things, I've heard more eloquent truisms (e.g. 42)

[Spider-Dan]

Nearly everything end-game can be figured out through math as far as gear and performance optimization goes, and having that job at 75 or not has nothing to do with numbers and equations.

Anything that isn't figured out with math is figured out with common sense and knowledge of the game and job in question. None of which is unique to experiences you have while leveling a job.

Beyond those two facts, there really isn't much room for advantages of a person with a 75 job over a person who has the same job at level 1. There is a level of ignorance of grasping difficulty, true experiences, situations and other minor tidbits but those aren't factors that are being debated in this argument.

Wait a minute... that's the smartest thing I've ever heard anyone say about anything.

[aurik]

[quote:2lgfj0ny][quote:2lgfj0ny]Making Lars easier to obtain is not going to magically turn BST into top DD job.

Wait wait wait, who said anything about "top DD job"? You said BST hasn't gotten anything to make it a better DD job, that's patently false.

Nice try though.[/quote:2lgfj0ny]
Lars was introduced before TAU release and even then she parses very closely to Amigo which has been present for years. If you read my initial post carefully what I was trying to say was that BST has not received any reall buffs to their DD performance since TAU release. Lars has never had any huge impact on BST DD performance in merit party or endgame activities - but she makes a wonderful pet in Maat fight (because Amigo is a lv75 jugpet and BST cant use it for Maat fight) and fight against anything below EM.

Think of what SE have given to other DD jobs over the last 12 months - 2h weapon adjustment, SAM buffs, DRK buffs, DRG new 2hr and wyvern adjustment, THF dagger base damage adjustment, RNG new abilities, PUPs new frames even MNK get Usukane set. And BST only get the pathetic Sirus Axe, Khimaira and Skadi's set.[/quote:2lgfj0ny]

I guess you totally forgot about when they added a new recipe that made lars very easily T2 with cheaper materials, boosted the drop rate of the rare mats, and made him last 1 hour instead of 15 minutes? The price per lars went down from 100k to 10k following these changes. That classifies as a major DD boost.

PS. Amigo is still 20k, and used to be 100k+ like Lars pre-jug buff. Oh, and the duration buff also applies to him.

hmm, lv20 BST trying to prove his points on BG forum, I thought that's the kind of posts you will expect to see on Alla?

I believe you already got owned on this point, so I'll give it a rest.

[algrensan]

Samurai is a bit more complicated:
Relevant: http://ffxi.killvoid.com/forums.php?m=p ... 65815&d=60

Full Usukane
STR +16
DEX +13
Accuracy +36 (+45.75 with added Dex)
Evasion +29
Attack +17 (+29 with STR)
Haste +8% (+13% with total of the set)
"Store TP" +13
Set: Adds 5% to total Haste %

Ace's, Haubergeon +1, Dusk +1, Byakko's, Usukane Sune-Ate
STR +10
Dex +21
Accuracy +26 (+45.5 with added Dex should be 41.75)
Evasion -27
Attack +25 (+32.5 with added STR)
Haste +15%
"Store TP" +7

The main difference is 2% haste (0.1 sec), 3 attack vs 4 accuracy, 1.5 wdmg, 6 store TP, 56 evasion. By using mix-n-match, Sam does a slight bit more damage basically by virtue of the extra 2% haste.

However, 56 evasion is a huge amount. Full usukane is very noticeable on merit-level mobs on my monk--so much so that I'm wanting to replace my merman's earring with an ethereal earring for the net +9 evasion for -1 attack. The 6 STP also means that less merits are needed to break the 6-hit tier, and the only other good place to put those merits is a slightly shortened 3rd eye recast.

Thus, a samurai with full usukane does a bit less damage in return for a huge amount of durability.

i was posting about full usukane vs ace's, hauby+1, dusk+1, and byakko's for sam in the "other" forum and noticed a small error in accuracy. i'd still go with full usukane over "optimal gear" for sam.

[Ahlah]

I guess you totally forgot about when they added a new recipe that made lars very easily T2 with cheaper materials, boosted the drop rate of the rare mats, and made him last 1 hour instead of 15 minutes? The price per lars went down from 100k to 10k following these changes. That classifies as a major DD boost.

PS. Amigo is still 20k, and used to be 100k+ like Lars pre-jug buff. Oh, and the duration buff also applies to him.

You seem to be missing the point, Lars has never had any huge impact on BST DD performance in merit party or endgame activities. Switching from Courier Carrie to Lars only give you a mere 2-3% boost in a merit party without BRD or COR and 12 CC only costs 5k. You can argue that Iqiara Weskit used to be 7-8mil and now only costs 20k on Midgardsormr. So by your definition, BLM also received a major DD boost just because SE made every single ISNM3000 drop the mats?

Beyond those two facts, there really isn't much room for advantages of a person with a 75 job over a person who has the same job at level 1. There is a level of ignorance of grasping difficulty, true experiences, situations and other minor tidbits but those aren't factors that are being debated in this argument.

I believe this statement has just covered everything about BST solo. Unless you have done it yourself you won't be able to appreciate the complexity.

Back to the origincal argument - my point is for a solo BST, kiting is unnecessary and will almost always going to slow down the process. Unlike a PLD or NIN, there is only certain amount of hate your pet will be able to hold due to lack of spike hate tool and the fact that pet will constantly lose CE from taking hits. BST do occasionally pull hate from their pets, most of them just turn around, absorb a few hits with utsusemi/blink and pets usually get hate back at this point. If a BST pulls so much hate that he has to start kiting the mob (esp. after a big ws when mob is still at full health) all the benefits of dealing more damage are lost because it will take much longer for the pet to re-establish hate and BST will have to stop dealing damage for a long period of time since pets can only rely on DoT to build hate which is apparently much more difficult to achieve esp when the BST is kiting.

Skadi's jambeaux actually prolong the process - if BST manage to outrun the mob, they are not losing CE hate from taking hit and pets won't be able to land hits frequent enough to re-establish hate. A BST who knows the hateline and does consistent DoT will always do better and giving BST Skadi's jambeaux is not going to raise the hate thresold I just mentioned.

This is a basic concept that any lv75 BST will be able to appreciate since that's what we do from 35-75.

[Lordwafik]

Pulling hate off your pet is dumb and is asking for death if you do it early in the fight, Kiting should only happen during mischarms
I died a bunch when I bought all this top notch bst gear and was outdd'ing my pet, had to dumb myself down and hold TP till low HP, etc. Sometimes though if I felt risky I'd rampage mid mob if my pet had much more hate than me (I'd judge this with curing myself).

[fndragon]

Pulling hate off your pet is dumb and is asking for death if you do it early in the fight, Kiting should only happen during mischarms
I died a bunch when I bought all this top notch bst gear and was outdd'ing my pet, had to dumb myself down and hold TP till low HP, etc. Sometimes though if I felt risky I'd rampage mid mob if my pet had much more hate than me (I'd judge this with curing myself).

Some of the best solo BST times I've had was when I was skilling up Scythe and Dagger on my BST. No way in hell I was gonna pull hate off my pet, so I got to deck out in all the good gear.

Also, levelling BST gives much more appreciation for Regen 1.