Salvage v. King Gear, OR Should Tanks Blink? (Milkman split)

[Max™]

Well, /Sam with Rajas/Brutal/Chiv I have a 6 hit with my Gaxe.

Normal Raging Rush 3 hit return is 18%, 1 double is 20%, 2 doubles is 21%.

If I'm not getting some decimal's with the secondary hits, there's no way to explain the 18% > 20% jump, it isn't from being hit, it happens every time I get one double, I've done the math confirming the damage range for 1 double attack, and get the same returns on stuff like Campaign Fortifications.

[Xanthe]

I used to think it was only 1.0 for additional hits as well, but after actually testing I can see Store TP affecting those hits. A 5-hit Penta Thrust will give a 20% return, but one double attack will give a 22% return, and the rare second double attack will give 23%. Just like Max said, the math speaks for itself: 16.0 + (1.2 * 5) = 22. Regardless, I didn't rely on those extra hits to keep 6-hit going anyway.

[RKenshin]

Topic from a few pages ago, but nevertheless!

Unless the stick rate changes a lot between 68 and 75, or the "enhances third eye" relic gear makes a difference, you must have a magical third eye. Mine wears off after 2-3 hits most of the time.

Do you have any parses showing your overall avoid rate? I remember ruke posting one parse where his overall avoid rate was a paltry 30%, which seems more inline with my experience. (http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9594/66341738hj4.jpg)

I'm pretty sure that's the Amano vs Cata vs newly 75 MNK/WAR parse? In which case that'd actually be a bad reference for third eye anticipation rates, I used hasso for a large portion of that PT.

I probably have a better parse somewhere, but /lazy. I'm rather certain I avoid physical hits in some form over 50% of the time when I'm actually seigan tanking though... Through a total of evasion/parry/counter/shadow proc/anticipate.

I have a slightly better sample now, although not quite the best. I let Seigan wear off too many times.

But I was the tank for this PT, voking in full enmity (+40) every time it was ready even though it wasn't really necessary (did almost 50% of total damage, so needless to say I had a lot of hate). Parse looked like this:
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/7548/p3bv5.jpg

Only problem is that my counter rate wasn't parsed, I had wrong field checked. But, I had about a 55% absorb-rate, 5% evade, and 5% parry. If I assume that I counter about 1/4th of the time this puts me at about an 11% counter-rate, which seems about right.

This totals at avoiding damage 76% of the time.

I'd imagine with full Usukane and no Seigan mistakes I could push higher, and Usu would add over 50 evasion to what I TP'd in that PT. MNK and SAM have the same base eva, what kind of eva percents do you get in your PTs on MNK Aurik?

Playing with numbers, if 50 eva added just 5%, that'd put me at 81% avoidance. And close to 90% if I count shadow mantle, which I can usually macro on before I take damage (some PTs I even keep it on full-time). That would be pretty awesome :O... Although realistically it'd probably even out to 80-85%. Which is still nice at around ~110 avg damage taken a hit.

[Suiram]

Is the information displayed from the parse a percentage of the total number of attack rounds, or only those for which it could have been used taking into account the order in which things are checked ingame?
For instance for 55% anticipation, is it 55% of all attacks against you, or 55% of non-evaded, non-parried attacks against you?

[RKenshin]

I remember speaking with Div about this when he was figuring out how to track defensive stuff like counter/etc more accurately. If I remember correctly he originally had stuff like counter-rate figured out from total counters / total attacks directed at you, which isn't accurate. Later it was changed to total counters / total hits connected.

So I would think that it's the same for anticipation now, where it's 55% of the non-evaded, non-parried, and non-countered attacks against me. AKA total anticipates / total hits connected?

Although I don't know for sure, so that's a good question.

[ringthree]

I remember speaking with Div about this when he was figuring out how to track defensive stuff like counter/etc more accurately. If I remember correctly he originally had stuff like counter-rate figured out from total counters / total attacks directed at you, which isn't accurate. Later it was changed to total counters / total hits connected.

So I would think that it's the same for anticipation now, where it's 55% of the non-evaded, non-parried, and non-countered attacks against me. AKA total anticipates / total hits connected?

Although I don't know for sure, so that's a good question.

The newest version of Dvsparse (or whatever it's called now) has two different ratings for counter, I believe for what you are talking about here.

[RKenshin]

Yeah, but it's had the two versions of counter for a while now iirc. And yep, for the reasons I mentioned.

[Dimitri Maximoff]

Personally, i feel ever since Salvage stepped into the end game gear competition, King Gear just had to bury itself. It's got no alternative comparing itself to Salvage.

[Ahlah]

Why are you so stupid? In a party with more buffs that lars is not recieving, lars will be contributing a comparatively smaller share of the total damage, ergo in a party where lars is less disadvantaged by his lack of party buffs, he will be doing a larger amount of damage relative to the other members of the party.

I laugh so hard when I came back to check this thread, you guys obviously need to dig our your high school math textbook again.
Assuming we have 4 identical DD, if any 3 of them form a merit party, the parse result of each individual member should be around 33%. If all 4 of them xp together each of them should be parsing around 25%. The bottomline is you can't really compare (by%) the parse result of these 2 parties. You claim that Lars did 5.5% damge in a 3 DD party, the fact is if you put her in 4 DD party she will parse way below 5.5% because a big chunk of the percentage is taken up by 4th DD.

Please level BST to 75 and do 100 merit party with both CC and Lars before you come back to tell me Lars own.

[#686578]

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[Ahlah]

I think you're forgetting the damage tanks do

Elaborate pls lol

Btw I think Aurik need to study some statistucs. First he claimed that Usukane set only improve his DD performance by 1-2%. He compared this to Lars performance which is about 2-3% better than CC. A serious mistake in the comparison is that he totally ignore the fact that the both results are measured under very different circumstances. Give Usukane to a AH MNK who don't have relice H2H you will see a much bigger improvement. Put Lars in a pimp out 4 DD brd rdm party she won't be doing as much damage.

[#686578]

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[Max™]

Brd or Cor + Brd + Healer of some sort?

[RKenshin]

Calling Aurik of all people out on failing at math? lol

And well, doesn't seem to be the case...

I laugh so hard when I came back to check this thread, you guys obviously need to dig our your high school math textbook again.

Assuming we have 4 identical DD, if any 3 of them form a merit party, the parse result of each individual member should be around 33%. If all 4 of them xp together each of them should be parsing around 25%. The bottomline is you can't really compare (by%) the parse result of these 2 parties. You claim that Lars did 5.5% damge in a 3 DD party, the fact is if you put her in 4 DD party she will parse way below 5.5% because a big chunk of the percentage is taken up by 4th DD.

Please level BST to 75 and do 100 merit party with both CC and Lars before you come back to tell me Lars own.

Uh, no lol... I think you need to be the one checking your math and: "digging out your high school math textbook again."

If, like you said, in a 3 DD PT all of the three DDs are doing an equal amount of damage with Lars doing 5.5% of the total... It means that they would each have to do about 31.2% of the damage. Keeping this balance and the percentages relative to each DD the same, adding in another DD will decrease everyone else's damage by the exact same percent. Lars doesn't become any stronger or weaker relatively, and it's foolish to expect it to suddenly become relatively stronger when another DD is added... Why would it? No DD really gets noticeable stronger with more of them added to a PT. This argument fails.

Not only that, but implementing the math for the above under the same circumstances you mentioned of equal balance between the DDs relative to eachother, every DD's damage percent drops by 25%. Resulting in 23.4% for DDs, with Lars at 4.13%. Hardly "way below" 5.5%.

(obviously I rounded from the first decimal place, so it doesn't quite add up to exactly 100)

Elaborate pls lol

Btw I think Aurik need to study some statistucs. First he claimed that Usukane set only improve his DD performance by 1-2%. He compared this to Lars performance which is about 2-3% better than CC. A serious mistake in the comparison is that he totally ignore the fact that the both results are measured under very different circumstances. Give Usukane to a AH MNK who don't have relice H2H you will see a much bigger improvement. Put Lars in a pimp out 4 DD brd rdm party she won't be doing as much damage.

That has like, almost nothing to really do with statistics.

Aurik said Usukane improved his own performance by that percent, to my knowledge he has never said anywhere that Usukane improves any MNK's performance by 2%. Which ends your assumption. Aurik saying his own results with Usukane has nothing to do with applying it to the masses, and if you incorrectly assuming you can then it's your mistake.

And the performance increase every player gets out of a set/gear piece has very little to do with math, and way more to do with the player themselves.

I've got an insane damage increase from upgrading relic GK, and I've demonstrated it in experiences and parses. Yet, I bet you'll find plenty of people who have upgraded GK, that don't get anywhere near as much of an improvement out of it. Why? It can be effected by anything from gear choices, gear available, merits, playing 'aggressively', or whatever.

The boost Usukane applies relative to the exact same base situation never changes, the only thing that changes is the base situation. A MNK with the same gear/merits/playstyle as Aurik will see a similar boost, but a MNK with shit gear, no merits, and a lazy playstyle obviously won't. This isn't a statistical fact, it's common sense.

[Ahlah]

I love ppl who love to jump into discussion without first knowing what the orgininal argument is.

First, your calculation is fairly close the actual results but you misunderstood the orginal argument.
Let's do a quick recap - Aurik argue that Lars make significant contribution to BST damage output by stating:

Last party I had with Solsovly, his Lars put up 5.5% against a maxed out ridill/purpleberk war + maxed out usukane/relic mnk, with brd+cor buffs that Lars doesn't get. In a more NQ party, that would be easily 10%.

What I am trying to point out is quoting Lars performance by percentage in a 3 DD party does not give a valid result since the numberof each individual DD is exaggerated including Lars itself. As in this case, Lars DD output increases from around 4.03% to 5.5% by simply switching to a 3 DD party.

Regarding Usukane and Lars, another quote from Aurik:

You don't understand my point? No shit, sherlock. You were the one who brought up Usukane as a shining example of what other jobs have been given while poor beastmaster suffers. Except that the Lars change is three times more potent than Usukane and, surprise, doesn't cost 11m and a years worth of Salvage to obtain. And is also why Black Belt is completely, utterly irrelevant: you're making the comparison between Usukane and Lars, and then you dig up black belt like it somehow has something to do with anything.

He claimed that Usukane set only increses his damage output by 1-2% whereas BST get a 3% boost by switching from CC to Lars. This again is biased unless the results are recorded when both MNK and BST are in the same party.

Just ignore the numbers for a second, the fact is Usukane set have more to offer than just pure DD boost, which is not even taken into consideration when Aurik compared Usakane to Lars.

[Conrad]

Dissing Aurik's math, and now dissing Rukenshin? You're making a lot of friends here, huh.

Just ignore the numbers for a second

Isn't that what's being argued?

What I am trying to point out is quoting Lars performance by percentage in a 3 DD party does not give a valid result since the number of each individual DD is exaggerated including Lars itself. As in this case, Lars DD output increases from around 4.03% to 5.5% by simply switching to a 3 DD party.

Are you trying to say that, given the difference between three melees or four, Lars's ability to do damage is reduced? No shit, sherlock. The problem is, there's no basis for the fact as to whether it's valid or not. Three melees is just as valid a party as four...unless I'm missing your argument? Or unless you're missing it.

[aurik]

I love ppl who love to jump into discussion without first knowing what the orgininal argument is.

First, your calculation is fairly close the actual results but you misunderstood the orginal argument.
Let's do a quick recap - Aurik argue that Lars make significant contribution to BST damage output by stating:

Last party I had with Solsovly, his Lars put up 5.5% against a maxed out ridill/purpleberk war + maxed out usukane/relic mnk, with brd+cor buffs that Lars doesn't get. In a more NQ party, that would be easily 10%.

What I am trying to point out is quoting Lars performance by percentage in a 3 DD party does not give a valid result since the numberof each individual DD is exaggerated including Lars itself. As in this case, Lars DD output increases from around 4.03% to 5.5% by simply switching to a 3 DD party.

I'll stop using examples because they're obviously just making you confused.

A bst's overall damage is:
bst's personal damage + bst's pet damage

From parsing, when the bst is getting 2 songs / 2 rolls, Lars is about 25% of the bst's damage. Carrie, on the other hand, is about 15% of the bst's damage.
1.25 / 1.15 = 8.6% increase

In a party where the bst isn't getting maximally juiced, Lars and Carrie will be performing better with respect to the bst, therefore the increase will actually be larger.

Yet you seem to think making Lars widely available was not a big boost to BST.

Regarding Usukane and Lars, another quote from Aurik:
[quote:umtxoijg]You don't understand my point? No shit, sherlock. You were the one who brought up Usukane as a shining example of what other jobs have been given while poor beastmaster suffers. Except that the Lars change is three times more potent than Usukane and, surprise, doesn't cost 11m and a years worth of Salvage to obtain. And is also why Black Belt is completely, utterly irrelevant: you're making the comparison between Usukane and Lars, and then you dig up black belt like it somehow has something to do with anything.

He claimed that Usukane set only increses his damage output by 1-2% whereas BST get a 3% boost by switching from CC to Lars. This again is biased unless the results are recorded when both MNK and BST are in the same party.[/quote:umtxoijg]

Again, you're getting confused because you're not smart enough to understand the examples. Don't get angry at me, get angry at your parents.

Regardless, let me clarify. I never ever xp in pickups. Thus, I reliably parse in the 30-40% range, depending on factors like the party composition. Compared to the same person in the same situation, Usukane has increased my parse by 1-2%. Putting it in the same terms as above, this is about an overall 5% increase: less than the difference of Lars over Carrie in the most pessimistic situation.

Just ignore the numbers for a second, the fact is Usukane set have more to offer than just pure DD boost, which is not even taken into consideration when Aurik compared Usakane to Lars.

Yes let's totally ignore the main line of the debate. Clearly it's a point that you'd have to concede.

[aurik]

Also, sorry Ruke I don't have any parses on hand that show evasion. I don't xp much and generally don't parse unless I have something specific to find out.

I would estimate evasion rate at about, hmm, 10-15%? Hard to tell purely from eyeballing, but it's definitely increased.

PS. wtb ethereal earring instead of mermans for the extra 9 evasion :X

[Vedder]

This discussion is entertaining.

Ahlah, if you don't mind my asking, what is your educational background?

[RKenshin]

I love ppl who love to jump into discussion without first knowing what the orgininal argument is.

I know exactly what the original argument was, I have been following this thread since before it started.

You misunderstand my point if you think my post had anything to do with something other than correcting your math-related assumptions.

He claimed that Usukane set only increses his damage output by 1-2% whereas BST get a 3% boost by switching from CC to Lars. This again is biased unless the results are recorded when both MNK and BST are in the same party.

Just ignore the numbers for a second, the fact is Usukane set have more to offer than just pure DD boost, which is not even taken into consideration when Aurik compared Usakane to Lars.

His point, rukenized, was that disregarding the effect of a 2-10% (or whatever you believe it to be/it really is) boost in overall damage that costs you almost nothing is stupid. But who cares what the exact % is, the point still remains the same that it is a considerable boost that is really cheap.

For most other jobs, getting a similar increase from multiple pieces of gear will either require large sums of money or a shitload of time camping NMs, or both. And yeah I'd hope for 11m more and a years worth of Salvage full Usu would offer more than just a damage increase. But the point is you can't really compare the difficulty of getting full Usu with the difficulty of scrounging up 4-8k to buy a jug of clear blood broth.

And yes, it is comparable to the availability increase of Igqira. As an extreme example, would you try to say that relic GKs costing 100k to upgrade wouldn't be a boost for SAM?

Also, sorry Ruke I don't have any parses on hand that show evasion. I don't xp much and generally don't parse unless I have something specific to find out.

I would estimate evasion rate at about, hmm, 10-15%? Hard to tell purely from eyeballing, but it's definitely increased.

PS. wtb ethereal earring instead of mermans for the extra 9 evasion :X

It's no problem lol. Thanks!

And yeah, I've vowed to go to Norg and finally get the cut for Ethereal Earring the day Hammerfuckingblows drops. 0/72 or so not helping.

The amount of Eva I'll have on MNK and SAM with the set makes me feel fuzzy inside.