Salvage v. King Gear, OR Should Tanks Blink? (Milkman split)

[Rocl]

Is English your second language? I need to know before I berate you.

[LD]

It was wordy, but logically sound, what's the problem?
And now begins the slowest dance of all.

[Rocl]

It was wordy, but logically sound, what's the problem?
And now begins the slowest dance of all.

I wasn't talking to you.

[LD]

That's impossible. Klingons live for battle!

[Rocl]

Rock me, Amadeus.

[Baha]

Look at the damage difference between Lars and CC in 3 DD party - 2.15%
Now look the the difference in 4 DD party -1.5%
Does it mean Lars did more damage than CC in 3 DD party? Of course not, it gives ppl the false impression that Lard did more damage but if you quote the actual damage numbers there should be no difference between the 2 jugpets in both 3 and 4 DD party.

What? Of course there's a damage increase from going from CC to Lars. If you're simply wanting to do your share of the damage, naturally the raw % improvement drops with DD's added, but so does the target you're shooting for.
Target is 33% : CC > Lars = +2,15% => 2,15/33
Target is 25% : CC > Lars = +1,5% => 1,5/25

Arguing the straight numbers is pointless though, getting any single upgrade, will only yield a few %. Even a DRG's wyvern is like 2,5% of the damage in a 3-man pt, hardly makes it worth scoffing at.

What really annoys me is ppl actually think BST do not deserve job adjustment simply because SE has made Lars more readily availble. How on earth does a DD job that hasn't received any DD related job adjustment since 2006 not deserve one?

Noone's saying BST shouldn't get more updates, but the easier acquisition of Lars jugs IS a buff to BST's DD potential. It doesn't make you wipe the floor with SAM, but it's still an improvement over a whiffing, bubble-showering crab.
Hopefully the next jugpets will be worth using, and not be as retarded to acquire as Lars was at the start.

[Charismatic]

Maybe it's because BST isn't a fucking DD job?

You could have fucking fooled me, if it's not a DD what is it?

It's not like BST does anything other than damage.
You use axes for... damage.
Pets... for damage.

Sounds like a Damage Dealer to me.


You might mention that it's a solo job, right? That being a "solo" job (which it sucks at btw, DRG is definitely better for soloing exp, RDM is much much better for soloing NMs, hell, NIN/BST outdoes BST in some areas) somehow makes it not be a DD job... (See: DRG).





I just wish SE would make BST into something useful for endgame at least, since they suck-ass for exp/merits these days. Also, Euvhi & Xzomit family mobs need to be made charmable.

[aurik]

Let me put thing into perspective.

Aurik argued that:
Usukane only increase a relic/BB MNKperformance by 1%
Switching from CC to Lars increase damage output by 3% (actual calculation is ~2.15%) in 3 DD party

No, now you're just misquoting me. Usukane increased my share by 1% when my share was normally in the 30s. That's about 3% personal performance increase.

Much like a 3% increase when share is 25% is over a 10% personal performance increase.

I'm sorry if you're not smart enough to follow.

Again, this argument is whether Lars is a significant upgrade for BST...so congratulations on making my point.

And keep on raising that straw man argument, because it's about the only one that you can win.

and he went on to claim that Lars has more impact on BST performance than Usukane on MNK.

It does, ~10% vs ~3% personal performance increase.

[Zilong]

Maybe it's because BST isn't a fucking DD job?

You could have fucking fooled me, if it's not a DD what is it?

It's not like BST does anything other than damage.
You use axes for... damage.
Pets... for damage.

Sounds like a Damage Dealer to me.


You might mention that it's a solo job, right? That being a "solo" job (which it sucks at btw, DRG is definitely better for soloing exp, RDM is much much better for soloing NMs, hell, NIN/BST outdoes BST in some areas) somehow makes it not be a DD job... (See: DRG).





I just wish SE would make BST into something useful for endgame at least, since they suck-ass for exp/merits these days. Also, Euvhi & Xzomit family mobs need to be made charmable.

Maybe I was a bit too blunt on that. But I meant that they weren't made to reach the same tier of power on say, merit party than other dedicated DD.

I mean what Ahlah is saying is like "Fucking hell, BLM can't even come close to SAM in a merit party, elemental staves is a fucking useless upgrade"

[Charismatic]

Maybe it's because BST isn't a fucking DD job?

You could have fucking fooled me, if it's not a DD what is it?

It's not like BST does anything other than damage.
You use axes for... damage.
Pets... for damage.

Sounds like a Damage Dealer to me.


You might mention that it's a solo job, right? That being a "solo" job (which it sucks at btw, DRG is definitely better for soloing exp, RDM is much much better for soloing NMs, hell, NIN/BST outdoes BST in some areas) somehow makes it not be a DD job... (See: DRG).





I just wish SE would make BST into something useful for endgame at least, since they suck-ass for exp/merits these days. Also, Euvhi & Xzomit family mobs need to be made charmable.

Maybe I was a bit too blunt on that. But I meant that they weren't made to reach the same tier of power on say, merit party than other dedicated DD.

They were originally made to, and did.
The game has changed since then, but BST didn't change with the rest of the jobs who were given useful merits and gear since that point in time.

SE has really fucked up with BST over the years.

[Zilong]

Funny, I don't remember BST ever reaching the power level of top tier DD even on the golden age of 1 handers pre group 2 merit.

[Lordwafik]

Funny, I don't remember BST ever reaching the power level of top tier DD even on the golden age of 1 handers pre group 2 merit.

As someone who levelled bst wayyyyyyy back in the day, they were known as a glory job , but more out of fear and respect than anything.

If a BST didn't like you, you would be MPK'd and a GM wouldn't do shit (unless you were JP duh), a BST could charm anything and bring it to the party to add to the DD, as the strongest DD.

Now let's focus on the aspect of the strongest DD. Have you ever heard the phrase "You're only smart because everyone else is dumb" ? That applies here, except it's more along the lines of "You're only strong because everyone else is weak". Back then , people didn't have haubs, harnesses, etc. There was a lot of AH gear and AF going on. A lot of my parties back in the old days were AF1 everyone, JP warriors in their red sportsbra, NA WHM in their af1 pajamas etc.
A bst's EM pet would speed up the party's damage, because everyone else sucked.

Now as time has gone by in the game, we've seen various phases, SC/MB parties, Manaburns, and now TP burn (which doesn't look like it's going away). We've seen all the people's untapped potential come to life via merits, via adjustments, and the like. Now BST hasn't been touched at all in the sense of what damage it can do, it's remained the same , whereas all other jobs have gotten bigger and better in terms of output. In ToaU, merit heaven, we saw some of the camps get changed a few times in terms of mob placement, but not one of the changes factored putting EM unagressive pets strategically placed around the VT monsters, aside from 1 location at the Trolls in mount Z.


Anyway, no longer feared and respected, since no longer do BST have MPK tools that work as good. Imagine the government replaced all of the mafia's guns with hello kitty clubs, that's how BST feels right now.

I'm just happy I have more than BST levelled Goodness if that was my only job I'd be a sad panda.

[Zilong]

Yeah, but what Charismatic is implying was that BST were top tier merit DD then

I know all about fuck with a BST, get a fuckton of aggro on top of your party deal back in the days, but really BST were never top tier merit DD at any point of FFXI's life

[Charismatic]

Yeah, but what Charismatic is implying was that BST were top tier merit DD then

I know all about fuck with a BST, get a fuckton of aggro on top of your party deal back in the days, but really BST were never top tier merit DD at any point of FFXI's life

Let's go back to 2004 shall we?
Yep, BST were pretty fucking awesome then.

[Zilong]

Boy, 5k/hour were so awesome back then too.

[Max™]

Had one of those "wow, I really hope they do that" moments, while I was talking to a Bst friend.

One swell foop (yeah I meant to do that) which could make Bst useful in Sea, open it up for use in some very interesting situations, and would just be really fun I'd imagine.

Something like a JA, or Gear, or maybe Cat 3 Merits that let you charm previously uncharmable families, Sea mobs, Beastmen, Greater Mobs, stuff like that.

Mostly just useless speculation, but I find it hard to see how it wouldn't be a pretty nice buff.

[Bakthi]

How about just job traits coming in at level 40, 45, etc. that let you do that stuff? BST main needs an advantage over {mage}/BST something fierce, in most settings. Also, if SE made them job traits, they'd be useful on the way up to 75. With BST, I think the journey is definitely better than the destination.

And hey, while they're at it, they could fix those bullshit scorpions in Halvung.

[Dohorehn]

Boy, 5k/hour were so awesome back then too.

uhm... you just indirectly supported the point you were trying invalidate.

yes, 5k/hour was awesome back then. And so were BST. Times have changed; BST have not. That's the point.

Maybe forums aren't your forté.

[Spider-Dan]

Anyway, no longer feared and respected, since no longer do BST have MPK tools that work as good. Imagine the government replaced all of the mafia's guns with hello kitty clubs, that's how BST feels right now.

You missed the one shining instance where nerf bat is actually a relevant and appropriate analogy.

[Isiolia]

BST effectively got directly nerfed as well...when Killer Effects were. Originally these gave a Haste/Slow effect as well, if I recall, which would have added to a BST's DD ability on a good number of mobs, given that they get seven of them. Instead they might save your ass if you mischarm, or pull hate...

It's not a 1-2% boost that BST needs to be truly competitive. Utility is very limited, DD is reliant far more on the BST than the pet, and basically if you can't vastly outgear people you aren't going to perform well in comparison.

Traits for charming Greater families, Lumorians, etc so that /BST can't would be a start for utility. Jug Pet system needs an overhaul, their spit n' bubblegum patching just isn't cutting it.