Salvage v. King Gear, OR Should Tanks Blink? (Milkman split)

[Max™]

Dual-wield merit for NIN would be broken, and before the past 8 months - 1 year I'd say is outside of SE's break the game scope, but then I saw what they did to SAM, and a little DW merit wouldn't even be a drop in the fucking pond of broken.

T2 needs MINIMUM of Jubaku Ni, what it SHOULD have been was the San line of debuffs, screw Utsu San, I'm fine with 1 and 2, but fuck me I want my San enfeebs and very least a Ni jubaku, as jubaku is amazing, and often procs very well.

Subtle blow is nice, DW would be a dream, Enfeeble tiers should have been a given and I really will never get over how bad SE fucked up by not making those our T2 merits. Sange had the right idea at heart, but poorly executed, and NTE? Fuck NTE, NTE is like a RNG meriting Recylce, why make a T2 merit category based around being a cheap-ass.

And kurayami is tons of hate, how isn't that common knowledge?

That's hilarious, I was saying something in my LS earlier, that basically summed up exactly what you said there.

"What Nin cat 2 should I merit?"
'You should wait til SE decides to be nice and give Kura/Hojo San/Juba Ni as cat 2 merits."

[Maxxthepenguin]

NIN should have gotten an ability that gave 15% slow and 15% crit hit rate increase. It wouldn't really help them in merit/exp/low level stuff but would make them very interesting and viable for HNM.

[Isiolia]

Also, have you stacked your nin merits to maximize a nin spell? I personally never see a nin cast a fully meritted huton persay before I try to land a paraII. Lots of unexplored potential there. I'd take a full suite of nukes with tied in resist-down but whatever.

It's the same -element down whether Ichi, Ni, or San, with however many merits you want because none of them actually change the resist down stat, just damage.

I have level 3 Raiton: San, though only 2/5 effect atm. Very rarely actually makes a difference.

IMO, much like RDM category II, the San spells shouldn't be merited. Neither should Jubaku Ni if we ever get it, etc. Should just get them in the 60s or so.

[shirak]

That sounds like a pretty cool ability. Give that to thief!

However, I don't see why nin deserves to be a hnm tank as well as a hnm dd.

Everyone would have to be nin then, just throw nins at a mob, we will have 10x + tanks per fight trading hate, noone will die except from the increasing aoes se has to put on its future mobs to counter the second nin population explosion!

edit:

It's the same -element down whether Ichi, Ni, or San, with however many merits you want because none of them actually change the resist down stat, just damage.

I have level 3 Raiton: San, though only 2/5 effect atm. Very rarely actually makes a difference.

IMO, much like RDM category II, the San spells shouldn't be merited. Neither should Jubaku Ni if we ever get it, etc. Should just get them in the 60s or so.

Have to agree with you about san and enfeebleII spells learned rather than meritted. I do feel SE wants rdm to be the premier enfeebler of mobs, and ni ninjitsu would probably be pretty strong.

While its the same -element down, you do get + duration with extra merits, and by not telling a difference, thats pretty relative. Do you make a point to always cast in tandem with a rdm or blm like a brd or cor does when possible?

[Maxxthepenguin]

NIN tank has very different gear and sub than NIN DD, you wouldn't be able to overlap. In any case, it's not like that ability would make it BETTER than WAR, DRK, SAM, etc, just able to keep up.

[shirak]

I don't agree that nin should be able to keep up with dedicated hnm dd's no matter what their equips. Else why bring a shadowless, nonenfeebling/nuking, subtle blow-less dd?

And they already do keep up right? I know they do on IT and below.

This'll be my last post on nin unless im quoted or blasted or something. I've seen everyone and their brother level nin when it was overpowered and now things seem balanced. Its looks to me that nins want to tip the scales again in their favor. Thats a valid want, but I don't think theres a need for it.

On a side-note, is anyone actually expecting merit increases for all jobs from the last pol notice, or just for the new jobs? Is this why you're arguing nin group2 merits...

I can see SE realizing what a flop wotg is and the last update and trying to please to memberbase, but my bet its just going to be sch and dnc merits. We'll see.

[Isiolia]

Have to agree with you about san and enfeebleII spells learned rather than meritted. I do feel SE wants rdm to be the premier enfeebler of mobs, and ni ninjitsu would probably be pretty strong.

While its the same -element down, you do get + duration with extra merits, and by not telling a difference, thats pretty relative. Do you make a point to always cast in tandem with a rdm or blm like a brd or cor does when possible?

There are already Ni spells for two of the four "basic" enfeebles NIN gets (well, 2/3 if you discount Dokumori/Poison). As the effects are static, in theory a RDM who is actually focusing on enfeebling should be able to do better. In reality, this is really only true for Slow II/Hojo: Ni that I can tell. Paralyze series are random, though for NIN a major point for Jubaku Ni wouldn't necessarily be potency, but speed. Put Ni casting speed on Jubaku and it's more practical to cast in a fight. There was a thread recently about Blind/II being static, like Kurayami is.

Really, there's no practical reason that NIN can't have Jubaku: Ni. SE could tweak Paralyze/II if needed. IMO, RDM is in a similar position...they don't -need- anything, but it sure would be nice anyway =P

Far as duration on elemental enfeebles...it's a matter of -seconds-. Usually I don't cast in tandem, but I'm not on NIN all the time either. I lead off with it, try to land Hojo after, etc. Certainly, in some cases it's an edge, and that's the main reason I merited it in the first place. Still, it's the least effective element-down in the game.
I wind up using it more to nuke Slimes/Flans in Nyzul though.

[Burnsy]

Granted nins want new toys, and that's understandable, but implying that nins have caught the short end of the stick as a ffxi job is kinda funny.

Ninja's are pussies. They've always been one of the most desireable jobs in the game. Main ninjas (when they are good) are gods, and can be masters at holding hate, or dealing damage.

Try being a MNK and not getting dick but usukane (which is only really good for the legs and feet) and some rediculously shitty h2h weapons for the last 5 years. O, ya, and our relic sucks balls too.
Monk group 2s are meh at best, and the group 1s only really make things slightly better (5/5 kick/counter or gtfo)
Penance is a joke, shit lasts like 10 seconds max on HNMs
Mantra, lolno
Invigorate - yay I can sponge mp slightly slower /war, o no wait, the rdm just overwrote it with regen I, nvm
Wasn't there 4? the last was so useless I never even read the description

Since the 2handed buff, nerf, and rebuff *good* mnks have gotten shafted again and again, with no adjustment to how we can contribute to the melee community, especially in HNM

wtf are MNKs supposed to do, sub WHM and Chi Blast everything? seems like one hell of a waste of a BB and Faith torque, if you ask me. Plus with the tp zerg method of killing so many things being in fashion, a 3 minute warm up for *maybe* 1400-1600 damage is hella weak.

SE could rework *ALOT* and still maintain their much valued "balance" (lol)...




and they could raise the level cap to 80... self ballading 80WHM/40BRD would be like, sex with your wife's sister, so good, yet you know you're wrong

[Xno Kappa]

stuck in 2006 nonsense.

[Isiolia]

and they could raise the level cap to 80... self ballading 80WHM/40BRD would be like, sex with your wife's sister, so good, yet you know you're wrong

Ballad I is 25, so you can already do that. However, with the way songs work, most of them from sub are very weak.

If the level cap went to 80, the most broken thing would probably be SCH/RDM or SMN/RDM, given their significant MP recovery JAs along with Convert.

[Xno Kappa]

The game is best balanced as is. Raising cap to 80 would only cause more problems for SE to procrastinate on.

[shirak]

shirak wrote:
stuck in 2006 nonsense.

hmm, care to elaborate or just moshing?

[Koyangi]

There's absolutely no reason why the only Katana wielding class in this game has an A-, raise that shit to 276, and ninjutsu too. Also, Thief Dagger should be at 276 too. It won't break anything for either of these changes.

[#686578]

.

[Isiolia]

Say that to BRD's C's.

BRD has a different system where Singing + Wind or String skill is used in conjunction. /BRD or perhaps Salvage prior to ranged unlock would be the only times you should see songs not using two skills.

Effectively, things work like an A+ skill due to that.

[zoobernut]

There's absolutely no reason why the only Katana wielding class in this game has an A-, raise that shit to 276, and ninjutsu too. Also, Thief Dagger should be at 276 too. It won't break anything for either of these changes.

QFT! It always has confused me why some jobs get an A rating on their main weapons and even a high rating in other weapons while jobs that are limited to only using one type of weapon get a lower rating. I don't see it being game breaking to give thief an A rating in dagger or Ninjas an A rating for katana.

[LD]

Eh..NIN has the most A skills of any job(5), and unlike PLD, the job which has the next most(4), it can technically make use of them all at one time. From a certain standpoint it makes sense, even though practically, it doesn't really change anything about the job.
Then again, neither would 7 skill levels.

[Yutuyu]

Ninja is one of the last jobs that needs to be "fixed." Their status as a tank pretty much guarantees their inclusion in parties and grants them a place in HNM. There's no reason to make them more powerful, they're in high demand even now.

But they do need new stuff. New weapons, new abilities, new spells etc. Something to make the job feel fresh.

But the problem with Ni debuffs, is that if they existed, NIN would be insane with Hate if you just spammed the Ni debuff wheel.

[Sifer]

Ninja is one of the last jobs that needs to be "fixed." Their status as a tank pretty much guarantees their inclusion in parties and grants them a place in HNM. There's no reason to make them more powerful, they're in high demand even now.

But they do need new stuff. New weapons, new abilities, new spells etc. Something to make the job feel fresh.

But the problem with Ni debuffs, is that if they existed, NIN would be insane with Hate if you just spammed the Ni debuff wheel.

I dont know if you have NIN leveled but I disagree with that last statement. NIN doesnt have enough time to cast all those debuffs. Even when building hate on a slept mob I'm casting spells pretty much all the time and I cant really fit more spells into my spell sequence (Stun > Aspir > sleep > Bind > Hojo:Ni > Kurayamai:Ni > Jubaku >Hojo:ichi > kura:Ichi).

Both ichi and ni spells give the same amount of hate and Ni spells have longer recast, I assume it will be the same with San spells. If we were ever given SAN spells i doubt I'd change what spells I use to build hate.

But anyway. NIN feels kinda balanced with other jobs the way it is (pre merits). nin tier 2 merits are not as good as overwhelm or feint. it doesnt really make those jobs better than NIN since they dont compete with them on the same party spot but, it does make nin tier 2 not worth it.

[Ferien]

However, I don't see why nin deserves to be a hnm tank as well as a hnm dd.

Everyone would have to be nin then, just throw nins at a mob, we will have 10x + tanks per fight trading hate, noone will die except from the increasing aoes se has to put on its future mobs to counter the second nin population explosion!

Except some groups already use/have used WAR and DRK to tank HNMs, and it hasn't become a big deal because in most situations it's preferable to keep the tanks separate from the DDs. The only thing I can think of that's tanked with melee bouncing hate is Hydra, and...lolHydra, seriously.

Ninja is one of the last jobs that needs to be "fixed." Their status as a tank pretty much guarantees their inclusion in parties and grants them a place in HNM. There's no reason to make them more powerful, they're in high demand even now.

I rarely if ever invite NINs to my merit pts, and after watching all 3 and playing 2 of them, I greatly prefer PLD and RDM to NIN on HNMs. Maybe it's a function of the people playing it, but not only are they sub-par in merits (MNK, WAR, and SAM can all do more damage, and WAR has Provoke, too) but the fact is that even in HNM the tables have completely turned on NIN, and now they're the (relative) support-hogs where they were once low-maintenance. Granted, this could all just be that I've seen a lot of really shitty NINs, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and call it even.

It's funny how years ago all anyone who isn't NIN ever did was complain about how overpowered the job was. SE listened, and instead of nerfing NIN, they buffed the competition, which, again, was exactly how everyone wanted it to be done. Now that the competition is on the same field, the NINs are complaining. Quit whining and deal. There are more choices now and the game as a whole is better for it.