Salvage v. King Gear, OR Should Tanks Blink? (Milkman split)

[BlackMoomba]

Why couldn't have the just put +12 att instead of eva on Usukane body, why, WHY!?

[ronin sparthos]

Why couldn't have the just put +12 att instead of eva on Usukane body, why, WHY!?

Because the piece was trying to be balanced <.<

[Maxxthepenguin]

Why couldn't have the just put +12 att instead of eva on Usukane body, why, WHY!?

Because the piece was trying to be balanced <.<

So

lim(x -> ebody) x = broken?

[ronin sparthos]

Yeah, Ebody is for all intents and purposes broken, much like Ridill and Kraken Club it was created without thought to the future. Same reason they dare not ever put a new job on any of that gear - damage control: SE style.

Unless that fantastic Evasion-10 for 3 jobs with shit evasion to begin with was supposed to be the clincher >.>

[Seebo]

lol @ people comparing ares to af2. Get them both, use spellcast macros. Put on the AF2 for flash and such, then back to Ares. It's all about different gear sets. Koenig is still a good piece to have for different situations.

Yes, you can get by keeping an Ares/Valor/Koenig body on fulltime, but why not maximize the efficiency of every piece situationally? Oh yeah, cause you're either 1. lazy or 2. bad or 3. don't have them yet (only excusable answer)

[Tubbers]

AF+1 is fine for birds and meat since you really shouldn't be meriting without 2 BRDs anyways.

Edit: To stay on topic, I will most likely use full usukane on NIN 90% of the time.

I thought it was really funny that the topic is "Kirin finally killed by Milkman" yet "on topic" means Usukane Vs. Other builds.

I think the really nice thing about Usukane, which Aurik has been pointing out, is that on mobs like Colibri you're going to evade them a LOT. This means less time spent casting shadows and more time spent killing them, or if you are MNK/WAR you still have some degree of survivability between evading and counters, but you're still an MP sponge. Same for SAM/WAR, the EVA would really help when using Seigan/Third eye just to save on MP and would possibly allow you to hasso full time with the right setup (birds and other melees with shadows).

[Howard Roark]

AF+1 is fine for birds and meat since you really shouldn't be meriting without 2 BRDs anyways.

Edit: To stay on topic, I will most likely use full usukane on NIN 90% of the time.

lol @ on topic;; pages 9-11 do not reference milkamn nor kirin once haha

the discussion is great but title needs a tune-up like that ifrit/kujata derail business

more on [off]topic i thought most sams opted for askar body for their 6 hit set-up, mine's only 64 atm so i cant speak from experience yet (and lacking usukane and askar body lol.. so.....)

but anyway yeah, afaik askar is said to be best for a better 6hit setup due to store TP on it and double attack; i'd personally be hesitant to ditch any one piece of 5/5 usu breaking the set bonus in doing so but since people are mentioning haub+1, why not askar body?

*straps on bullet proof vest cuz I'm thinking I'ma get sniped for this one heh*

[Judai]

Couple SAM threads and shit in Newbie talking about Askar Body. Basically, imo and some others prolly, losing the Acc on Hauby(+1) is too much, unless you are fully merited and have things like Ace's, Usukane Sune-ate and/or Relic to compensate.

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=28113

Ridill isn't broken, it is however over rated. Ebody is pretty good but again, not broken. KC is pretty broken in a DRK's hands though.

[LLK]

Oh yeah, cause you're either 1. lazy or 2. bad or 3. don't have them yet (only excusable answer)

Or 4 you don't like to blink gear to much when tanking. I use to change gear all the time and for tanking. For flash, for cure, for utsesmi. And while some might consider it "more effective" the people supporting me found it to be "more annoying", so I stopped. It's not that they weren't capable of keeping up, it's that it was just plain ole' annoying.

I find most of my gear swap now for tanking to be in places where it doesn't cause me to phase out.

Also, I don't think anyone was saying to use it full time. Obviously stuff is situational. I just think that I could find more times to use the extra 1mp/tick then I could to find the extra +4 Enimty.

[Judai]

Oh yeah, cause you're either 1. lazy or 2. bad or 3. don't have them yet (only excusable answer)

Or 4 you don't like to blink gear to much when tanking. I use to change gear all the time and for tanking. For flash, for cure, for utsesmi. And while some might consider it "more effective" the people supporting me found it to be "more annoying", so I stopped. It's not that they weren't capable of keeping up, it's that it was just plain ole' annoying.

I find most of my gear swap now for tanking to be in places where it doesn't cause me to phase out.

Also, I don't think anyone was saying to use it full time. Obviously stuff is situational. I just think that I could find more times to use the extra 1mp/tick then I could to find the extra +4 Enimty.

inc your mages sucked because they can't deal from someone. I personally don't swap outside gear because I myself find it annoying as fuck to blink my char every 5s. don't have AF2 though and don't want now, I'll let some other people have it and keep waiting for my RDM Hat.

[Darkwill]

Oh yeah, cause you're either 1. lazy or 2. bad or 3. don't have them yet (only excusable answer)

Or 4 you don't like to blink gear to much when tanking. I use to change gear all the time and for tanking. For flash, for cure, for utsesmi. And while some might consider it "more effective" the people supporting me found it to be "more annoying", so I stopped. It's not that they weren't capable of keeping up, it's that it was just plain ole' annoying.

I find most of my gear swap now for tanking to be in places where it doesn't cause me to phase out.

Also, I don't think anyone was saying to use it full time. Obviously stuff is situational. I just think that I could find more times to use the extra 1mp/tick then I could to find the extra +4 Enimty.

/ma "insert whatever spell here" <p1> (or/and <p2> or wherever your tank is in the party)
/ma "insert whatever spell here" insert name of the tank here

AF+1 is fine for birds and meat since you really shouldn't be meriting without 2 BRDs anyways.

Edit: To stay on topic, I will most likely use full usukane on NIN 90% of the time.

lol @ on topic;; pages 9-11 do not reference milkamn nor kirin once haha

the discussion is great but title needs a tune-up like that ifrit/kujata derail business

more on [off]topic i thought most sams opted for askar body for their 6 hit set-up, mine's only 64 atm so i cant speak from experience yet (and lacking usukane and askar body lol.. so.....)

but anyway yeah, afaik askar is said to be best for a better 6hit setup due to store TP on it and double attack; i'd personally be hesitant to ditch any one piece of 5/5 usu breaking the set bonus in doing so but since people are mentioning haub+1, why not askar body?

*straps on bullet proof vest cuz I'm thinking I'ma get sniped for this one heh*

1 picture = 1000 words.

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/9...vshaub1tn7.jpg

[Valisk]

Oh yeah, cause you're either 1. lazy or 2. bad or 3. don't have them yet (only excusable answer)

Or 4 you don't like to blink gear to much when tanking. I use to change gear all the time and for tanking. For flash, for cure, for utsesmi. And while some might consider it "more effective" the people supporting me found it to be "more annoying", so I stopped. It's not that they weren't capable of keeping up, it's that it was just plain ole' annoying.

I find most of my gear swap now for tanking to be in places where it doesn't cause me to phase out.

Also, I don't think anyone was saying to use it full time. Obviously stuff is situational. I just think that I could find more times to use the extra 1mp/tick then I could to find the extra +4 Enimty.

I agree with Judai on this one... WUT?!

2 words, lazy mages. Takes like two seconds to add your name to cure/haste/etc macros. If you are a main tank, your mages should already have your name in the macro line. I use to hate when people complained about me blinking then finally Ilm made most of our mages stop being retarded and encouraged people to make macros with tank names in them. It saves lives and makes baby Jesus proud.

Edit: Darkwill beat me to it.

[Judai]

Uhh, I said I DON'T swap gear and I think it's near worthless for Tanking. Whether or not your Mages add your name into their Macros, I still think blinking your Char out every 5s is overkill and usually not much of a difference to your hate in the end. Probably gets you killed or beaten down on more often then not as well. The only times I blink are swithcing Tanking sets from Regular set, Fire kit and Shield for when Utsu is down badly.

People can play how they want, I find blinking annoying just because it means I need 10 or more extra macros with your name in it. Plenty of other ways to hold hate that don't involve me swapping between 3 Bodies and god knows what else.

[Valisk]

ROFL, I completely read your post wrong.

Well I dont see the problem with blinking when the solution is as simple as putting <p1/2/3/etc> after your macro or type someone's name. If I have a collection of gear and one does an action slightly better than the other, then I'm going to maximize the potential and gear swap. Mages have no problem doing it for melee/other mages. Why should tanks be any different?

[Judai]

because Melee/Mages aren't the main focus of HNMs and TP Moves/Attacks that actually hurt? Typically if a Melee/Mage even pull hate they get torn to shreds in seconds anyways and it really doesn't matter if they swapped equip. Quite a big difference between not curing a Tank who swapped gear and them dying and some Melee/Mage dying.

and if you mean in Merit parties, lol@Merit mobs. Most Merit deaths are probably due to the guy getting owned in the face as he WS and wasn't being cured due to switching gear anyways.

Like I said, play how you want. If you actually need the +4Enmity on your Flashes to keep hate, by all means swap away.

[Valisk]

Was strictly talking HNM. My PLD doesnt lolMerit. But it's not the fact that anyone "needs" +4 Enmity on your Flashes to keep hate (hope you arent tryin to be a smartass). It's the fact that you have a beneficial piece in your possession, so why not use it? So do you think it's a waste of time to swap HP gear to cure yourself or added haste gear for Flash/Ni or AF2 for their respective "Enhances"?

[Judai]

Was strictly talking HNM. My PLD doesnt lolMerit. But it's not the fact that anyone "needs" +4 Enmity on your Flashes to keep hate (hope you arent tryin to be a smartass). It's the fact that you have a beneficial piece in your possession, so why not use it? So do you think it's a waste of time to swap HP gear to cure yourself or added haste gear for Flash/Ni or AF2 for their respective "Enhances"?

No. I just don't find the necesisty in blinking my Char which makes me untargetable in the chance someone needs to target me for w/e reason.

I swap nearly every single piece of inside gear on nearly every single thing I do. Haste/Shield for Utsu, Haste/Enmity for Flash/Kurayami, Enmity for /JA. I slo have a HP+ swap for Cure 3 and 2 other Macros to Cure4 my Co-Tank and Cure4 one of several other people in my ally who use HP-/+ gear for me. Although, due to space restraints I tossed every single piece of AF2 I owned, except pants for my WS Set when I solo and do Dynamis.

I just don't see the need to blink every action I do and I don't see the benefits of it outweighing the problems it can cause.

[Seebo]

Uhh, I said I DON'T swap gear and I think it's near worthless for Tanking. Whether or not your Mages add your name into their Macros, I still think blinking your Char out every 5s is overkill and usually not much of a difference to your hate in the end. Probably gets you killed or beaten down on more often then not as well. The only times I blink are swithcing Tanking sets from Regular set, Fire kit and Shield for when Utsu is down badly.

People can play how they want, I find blinking annoying just because it means I need 10 or more extra macros with your name in it. Plenty of other ways to hold hate that don't involve me swapping between 3 Bodies and god knows what else.

Sorry, could you repeat that? All I read was "blah blah I'm a fucking bad player"

Any good mage has their tanks macro'd. You have like 4 billion fucking macro books available. Go to your WHM set, and pick page 1-10. Take the time and effort to make a macro set even if its identical for your main tanks. It'll make you a better player by getting the -na spells or cures off more quickly and efficiently.

Also...hey, why optimize your tanking ability by swapping gear when you could just wear one set just so you dont blink? God i mean, blinking is so annoying. You don't get to look at your char stand there looking up at Tiamat/Cerberus/Khimeria/insertNMhere for the fight. Lets forget the fact that you'll reach the hate cap more quickly, have faster timers on your utsusemi, and in turn make it easier on your mages and allow your DDs to attack sooner/more often. Hell, I think people should weaponskill in their TP gear as well. Fuck blinking, it's annoying.

Bad Paladin is bad. You should tank for Milkman.

[Kaeko]

Uhh, I said I DON'T swap gear and I think it's near worthless for Tanking. Whether or not your Mages add your name into their Macros, I still think blinking your Char out every 5s is overkill and usually not much of a difference to your hate in the end. Probably gets you killed or beaten down on more often then not as well. The only times I blink are swithcing Tanking sets from Regular set, Fire kit and Shield for when Utsu is down badly.

People can play how they want, I find blinking annoying just because it means I need 10 or more extra macros with your name in it. Plenty of other ways to hold hate that don't involve me swapping between 3 Bodies and god knows what else.

Sorry, could you repeat that? All I read was "blah blah I'm a fucking bad player"

Any good mage has their tanks macro'd. You have like 4 billion fucking macro books available. Go to your WHM set, and pick page 1-10. Take the time and effort to make a macro set even if its identical for your main tanks. It'll make you a better player by getting the -na spells or cures off more quickly and efficiently.

Also...hey, why optimize your tanking ability by swapping gear when you could just wear one set just so you dont blink? God i mean, blinking is so annoying. You don't get to look at your char stand there looking up at Tiamat/Cerberus/Khimeria/insertNMhere for the fight. Lets forget the fact that you'll reach the hate cap more quickly, have faster timers on your utsusemi, and in turn make it easier on your mages and allow your DDs to attack sooner/more often. Hell, I think people should weaponskill in their TP gear as well. Fuck blinking, it's annoying.

Bad Paladin is bad. You should tank for Milkman.

Going to disagree on this point with gear swapping tanks.

Fact of life is not all mages macro the player and do rely on holding target to cure quickly. As a tank, is it more efficient to just not go for some marginal increases by switching gear that makes you blink, or switch it out and assume your healer will not mind? If you die, you can say it's the mages' fault, but the fact is you're still dead.

Team game here. If you got 100% of your mages you play with not minding blinking, then awesome, go ahead. However, I think it's harsh and narrow-minded to not realize that many people do not like blinking tanks. Regardless of if this is the mages' fault or the tanks' fault, dead tank is dead.

Being an optimal tank requires good communication. If you want to gear swap that's great, but some people hate dealing with it and it's honestly just easier to appease these people rather than going for marginal increases. I seriously question how you can call this bad play when you are coordinating with your support.

It's about trade-offs - marginal increases on gear switches, or avoid risking a miscue with your support due to constant equip blinking? Arguing either way is fine in my personal opinion, but both sides are far from "bad play".

[Noob]

This is one of the best derails I've read. Very interesting reads. Learned alot by reading the last 2~3 pages. Eager to see where this "blinking tanks" debate is headed.