Salvage v. King Gear, OR Should Tanks Blink? (Milkman split)

[Ohemgee]

Or you could just let the tank blink whenever he wants, try your best, and let God/Altana/Jack Bauer decide their fate. It's not like you can't do st, select someone else in the party initially, then switch over to the tank when he stops blinking right?

Nope better argue here for days.

If you're a mage and you can't tend to a blinking tank, then you suck. Also another situational piece: ETHEREAL EARRING

[RKenshin]

What the hell are people doing to blink uncontrollably into their death? lol

Seriously there are extremes of both sides, and both have disadvantages. Obviously not blinking at all in any regard for anything the second you perform an action on an HNM is stupid, and it'd drastically effect how effectively you can tank. At the same time, literally blinking every single second of the clock even when you're dieing is not only superfluous but kind of retarded. Even if your healers do have cure macros for you, people other than your WHM may attempt to cure and get blinked off. I'm sure a BLM or RDM in another PT won't make a cure macro for every tank on the off chance they see an opportunity to cure (obviously this isn't very common, but is still worth considering).

So really why can't there be a 'best of both worlds' option? I mean, arguably I'm probably known as one of most 'shit is situational, and I keep/use all that shit on me' people, with those old guides posting like 10+ gear sets for NIN when it was more common to have like 2. I can blink a shitload, and I usually do, but there's a degree of control you have over it too.

As long as you have this control, even if you blink a lot I really don't see how you can blink yourself into death unless you make the mistake. If you're taking damage, whether magic or physical, you should already be in and staying in that damage reduction gear. If you're not and changing into this gear after losing HP, or so much longer after that a mage can target you before you change gear, then this is a fault on your part. If you are, then why would you ever blink into something else? Only viable reason is changing into haste gear for Ni, and if you're casting Ni it should be timed so you won't get interrupted or take damage in it (and, not die + buy yourself 3-4 shadows).

So where is there room to die while blinking? I blink notoriously but 95% of the time the worst thing I'll blink off is haste or refresh, on rare occasions when I'm the one making the mistake in timing, I may blink off cures too. But I consider that more of a fault of me than just of a healer, because I shouldn't be blinking after taking damage anyway.

If you're going to argue the best possible tank will blink with perfect timing for everything, it should also be part of the deal that they'll just about never blink off cures when they matter. The only exception being spell animation locks that cause you to blink 1-2 seconds after you change gear, but I don't find that to be common enough to worry about for most situations.

[Veli]

Salvage>Kings..I got Ares & Morrigans body in like 3 weeks...8-10 people go to zone, enter, kill shit, get drops> Sit around waiting with 18-25 people and not getting claim.

[Quizno]

ares(seriously PLD onry....only HNM LS-less war and drk uses ares)

This part interested me.

There are two apoc drks I know that lean towards using Ares' legs instead of Homam.

Their build for merits is:

Main:Apocalypse
Subole Grip
Ranged:
Ammo:Fire Bomblet

Head:Ace's Helm
Body:Askar Korazin
Hands:Homam Manopolas
Legs:Ares' Flanchard
Feet:Homam Gambieras

Neck:Justice Torque
Waist:Velocious Belt
Back:Cerberus Mantle +1

Ear1:Abyssal Earring
Ear2:Brutal Earring
Ring1:Ulthalam's Ring
Ring2:Rajas Ring

I won't pretend to be an expert on what their intentions are, but I think they are sacrificing the 3% haste in the leg slot in order to gain 2% double attack since using Catastrophe already caps equipment haste (16% -> 25%).

Maybe you were referring to just the body?

Sorry for the slight derail.

[DAKPluto]

and the fact that most of my jobs are rendered useless due to lack of gear on the upper levels.

You only have some the BEST jobs for salvage....

[shirak]

I blink like a Christmas tree. It kinda sucks though. Definitely understand wanting to keep blinking to a minimum.

It is kinda nice though to blink through players/npcs when I'm on thief.

I was going to build a blinkless galka pld, I've kinda given up though. pld is too much work xp-wise and no love in that department.

[Ashira]

Didn't die or lose hate on Tia today, so I'll stick by my way of tanking.

Sounds like the first Tiamat to go from 100% -> 0% without roaring in history, because if you had as much hate as you said, you would of been first up to get roared.

Our Tias don't Roar.

protip: don't give her TP on the ground.

:ashira: *would HAVE, not would OF - it's a damn verb phrase, people, not a preposition

[Judai]

Didn't die or lose hate on Tia today, so I'll stick by my way of tanking.

Sounds like the first Tiamat to go from 100% -> 0% without roaring in history, because if you had as much hate as you said, you would of been first up to get roared.

Uh exactly, Tia didn't Roar once. Couple Wings and one Terror on my NIN/DRK co-tank. We only had one SAM even WSing it, had SMNs,BLMs and BLUs otherwise so Tia barely got TP to use on ground.

Like I said, everyone missed my point completely and acted like retards in their rebuttal. My point was solely I don't need to swap and therefore don't bother, they have support that can handle and feel like swapping, yay for them. Some of my support is great, some isn't, so it's not worth it to me.

For the guy telling me I'm an idiot for throwing away AF2 Feet, all they do is start you out at 100% instead of 90% reduction. I would hardly call that amazing or "making you Invincible", you get -10% boost for about 5s, yippee I take 20 less damage and the only time it matters is on /WAR when I'm tanking gimp shit anyways like Dynamis or Einherjar mobs. I also didn't say I don't gear swap, I said I don't blink excessively. I said many times I have an Oh Shit Shield macro that blinks me, I have Fire kits, Pure Haste Kits for holding mobs early on and shit like that. I actually do blink a bit if I am holding something, but that's because I'm solo and know I have the best people with me.

Also, as just brought up by a friend, if +4Enmity was so omgamazing, why do people use Hauteclaire over Macu+1 while /NIN? You really can't tell me you get hit enough to warrent the +7% Physical Damage taken being better then reaching your amazing Enmity cap sooooooo much faster, right!?

You can tell yourself I suck all you want, nothing is farther from the truth. Find a way to tank and use it if it works. My way works for me and my support, your way works for you and yours.

and Ashira, NIN/DRK is easily the easiest thing in the world to get hate on. I just recently finished my NIN and the first thing I tanked /DRK was just a joke(Omega). My Co-Tank, PLD/NIN, never pulled hate off me unless it was due to someone SATAing him and even then, I pulled it right back. The amount of hate from that job is just insane and only rivaled by RDM/w/e or PLD/RDM. It also makes no sence in your arguement that you say you don't use much Enm+ on NIN but say I'm a fool for fulltiming Ares's.

I will also stand by my statement that 1200mp over the course of my typical HNM fight will do far more for me then +4Enmity and shit, I said like 5x I don't even have or want an AF2 Body, I'll let someone else who doesn't have a good PLD Body get it.

[Ashira]

and Ashira, NIN/DRK is easily the easiest thing in the world to get hate on.

I never said it wasn't. I was essentially saying that because of the abilities NIN/DRK has as a job combo, I'm not necessarily big on stacking +Enmity on that job. Some other NIN/DRK tanks I co-tank with may, and thus may cap out sooner, but in the end there aren't issues keeping/sharing hate.

[Valisk]

Also, as just brought up by a friend, if +4Enmity was so omgamazing, why do people use Hauteclaire over Macu+1 while /NIN? You really can't tell me you get hit enough to warrent the +7% Physical Damage taken being better then reaching your amazing Enmity cap sooooooo much faster, right!?

It depends on the slot and the trade off, but I'd use Macu+1 over Hauteclaire

Hauteclaire = Town Gear/Terror Macro/lolWARsub(situational)

Edit:

I'm not arguing that you suck for not blinking. You just arent maximizing your potential/gear if you dont. Would you agree with that Judai?

[Judai]

and Ashira, NIN/DRK is easily the easiest thing in the world to get hate on.

I never said it wasn't. I was essentially saying that because of the abilities NIN/DRK has as a job combo, I'm not necessarily big on stacking +Enmity on that job. Some other NIN/DRK tanks I co-tank with may, and thus may cap out sooner, but in the end there aren't issues keeping/sharing hate.

So again, why is it I need +4 Enmity over my Refresh on PLD? You make a big deal out of me saying the Refresh is helping. Yes I over stated it a bit but it still helps and like others said, I think you over state the strength of +4 Enmity.

To Valisk, 90% of the PLDs I see fulltime it.

edit: Yes, I agree. If I felt I could blink more, I would. I however only blink when I feel I NEED it, like oh shit I'm gonna get trucked in the face I better add Shield gear now and shit like that. No, I'm not maximizing my potential on every spell/action. I however, don't feel I need to unless in very specific situations. My entire arguement was, you aren't always in life and death and NEED to swap a ton and blink out, I save it for those rare ocasions when I feel I need it but a couple ppl felt the need to flame me for that.

[RKenshin]

ares(seriously PLD onry....only HNM LS-less war and drk uses ares)

This part interested me.

There are two apoc drks I know that lean towards using Ares' legs instead of Homam.

That setup seems to be better than most alternatives.

And yeah, I don't agree about the Ares thing. In all seriousness I would consider the set to be of one of the top WS gear sets for the jobs it is available for. IMO it is also the best set of Jump/HJump gear for DRG or any /DRG.

Laugh at that all you want, but optimizing gear for JAs/WSs is no less of a practical application as macro'ing a body piece for refresh in between other sets of gear.

[Belkin]

I have 2 macro sets for HNM tanking on PLD.

First set blinks like crazy and it changes gear for pretty much every action. Like I said above, it keeps cure lurkers off you -- Situations when most people have full MP and the tanks aren't getting hit, WHM, RDM and BRD will camp your HP looking for something to do, it's really annoying because you don't need the cures at all during this time. The other benefit is strictly for you, you get the benefits of all your gear at the push of a button. It really maximizes your enmity output, your Utsusemi usage, and your shield skill build. I'll be on this macro set 80% of the time.

The second one is the exact same macros, without the gear blinking changes. On this set I keep a combination of Haste/Enmity in the slots that blink. Use this when you NEED to stay alive during a critical moment in the fight. No blinking helps mages, but doesn't really help you prefer your job better. I only use this set if the situation calls for it, which it usually never does in my position.

Not saying you suck if you don't blink gear but it hurts your efficiency if you don't do it at all.

[Valisk]

To Valisk, 90% of the PLDs I see fulltime it.

edit: Yes, I agree. If I felt I could blink more, I would. I however only blink when I feel I NEED it, like oh shit I'm gonna get trucked in the face I better add Shield gear now and shit like that. No, I'm not maximizing my potential on every spell/action. I however, don't feel I need to unless in very specific situations. My entire arguement was, you aren't always in life and death and NEED to swap a ton and blink out, I save it for those rare ocasions when I feel I need it but a couple ppl felt the need to flame me for that.

Yea, I was just trying to point out that the argument is/should be "You arent maximizing" rather thatn "OMG no blink, no skillz" minus a few quickdraw flamers.

[Judai]

I don't really have the problem of people spam curing me, they know to let me cure myself and everyone in ally and are pretty good about it.

Yea, well not much of an arguemtn there because I know I don' and admitted it, lol. People just like to flame and I think they all look like idiots to the people who actually understand what I'm saying.

[drwaffles]

Sounds like the first Tiamat to go from 100% -> 0% without roaring in history

Um, what? It's not difficult at all to keep Tiamat from Roaring, I don't even remember the last time she used it for us since we just don't feed her TP on the ground (sensibly).

Honestly, with regard to the whole blinking vs. not blinking argument, I think the tanks in question need to take into account how their support's macro palettes are organised - on RDM I've completely filled up three palettes with macros used for everyday spells (the most frequently-used spells such as Cures, Haste/Refresh and essential debuffs on one palette, one above and one below that for more situational spells so I always have a sort of "home palette" to return to). Then I have the rest of my palettes filled with RDM/NIN macros, tanking macros and so on and so forth.

My point is that, if your support is like me, they'll already have their "home palette(s)" crammed full and know their way around them with their eyes closed. Once you've used them for a long time it's very difficult to make room for new spells since you need to delete or move older macros that you'd much rather have instant access to. So imagine your support is forced to make custom Cure macros, they're most likely going to be on a different palette to their main one (assuming it's already full, as most people's are), which means that in order to access their emergency Cure spells as quickly as you need them to (which is usually very quickly indeed) they'll need to scroll down through a palette or two first before they can hit their macro. That can be laborious and take a couple of seconds, especially if the macro bar is laggy and there's a long delay between hitting Ctrl/Alt and the bar appearing on-screen.

Just seems counter-productive to me when you seem to be demanding such a high level of efficiency to begin with.

[Raineer]

Like I said, everyone missed my point completely and acted like retards in their rebuttal.

Stopped reading here.

This is like the 8th straight reply where you've said everyone against your point is retarded, obviously your logic is infallible.

Enjoy being sub-par, it doesn't affect me so I don't care. As someone earlier stated better than I: "anything you're doing which sacrifices optimization loses you this argument".

[Raineer]

To Valisk, 90% of the PLDs I see fulltime it.

edit: Yes, I agree. If I felt I could blink more, I would. I however only blink when I feel I NEED it, like oh shit I'm gonna get trucked in the face I better add Shield gear now and shit like that. No, I'm not maximizing my potential on every spell/action. I however, don't feel I need to unless in very specific situations. My entire arguement was, you aren't always in life and death and NEED to swap a ton and blink out, I save it for those rare ocasions when I feel I need it but a couple ppl felt the need to flame me for that.

Yea, I was just trying to point out that the argument is/should be "You arent maximizing" rather thatn "OMG no blink, no skillz" minus a few quickdraw flamers.

Give up, anyone who speaks out against Judai is an idiot or a retard. He has no intention to make an effort to understand the arguments presented against him, the thread is getting circular and should just be locked. He doesn't think he has to optimize because he has no interests in pushing his LS or his DD's to try harder. His point is "we're good enough, we don't need to be better." Awesome use of $15/mo, but it's his money and not mine.

[Correction]

I, like Valisk, find the juxtaposition of 'you aren't maximizing' and 'you are subpar' amusing.

[drwaffles]

Hypocrite much? As far as I can tell he has read and understood your points of view (not necessarily agreed with them, but at least recognised them), and here you are claiming that his entire argument amounts to "we do fine, no point in trying any harder", which it really doesn't.