Salvage v. King Gear, OR Should Tanks Blink? (Milkman split)

[Raineer]

Hypocrite much? As far as I can tell he has read and understood your points of view (not necessarily agreed with them, but at least recognised them), and here you are claiming that his entire argument amounts to "we do fine, no point in trying any harder", which it really doesn't.

No, I'm not maximizing my potential on every spell/action. I however, don't feel I need to unless in very specific situations.

Like I said, everyone missed my point completely and acted like retards in their rebuttal. My point was solely I don't need to swap and therefore don't bother, they have support that can handle and feel like swapping, yay for them. Some of my support is great, some isn't, so it's not worth it to me.

Sorry I think it does. He hasn't recognized my point, every single point he makes is essentially "we killed Tiamat, I don't need to try harder", followed of course by calling anyone who disagrees a retard who can't read or a close synonym of such phrase. He doesn't bother to try to train his support to be better, he just claims they are good enough to not bother.

How about that one time, when it's late, you are tired and you go to cure your tank and he blinks out and you miss him and he gets owned in the face and dies? You can't say it never happens, I've seen it happen.

I didn't say it sucks to blink out, I didn't say don't do it.

He even makes the point that "well shit can happen and you can need to cure your tank and fuck up" but doesn't even allow for the fact that MAYBE shit can happen and the tank loses hate, contradicting his own point. He doesn't lose hate though, so it doesn't matter, right?

I'm sorry, but that DEFINES "we are good enough and don't care to be better", there is no other way to state it.

As for Correction's point, yes I agree. "Sub-par" was a poor choice of words, given that I'm sure his LS performs well above average. I didn't mean to call that into contention. Let's substitute instead "I guess if you don't want to maximize, that's your choice, but not the choice I would make", which has been exactly my point the entire discussion. But since Judai has trouble reading a whole post before foaming at the mouth to get the words "omg u a retard" typed into a reply he's having trouble seeing that.

edit: edited like 3 times, adding quotes and what-not

[Judai]

Hypocrite much? As far as I can tell he has read and understood your points of view (not necessarily agreed with them, but at least recognised them), and here you are claiming that his entire argument amounts to "we do fine, no point in trying any harder", which it really doesn't.

No, I'm not maximizing my potential on every spell/action. I however, don't feel I need to unless in very specific situations.

Like I said, everyone missed my point completely and acted like retards in their rebuttal. My point was solely I don't need to swap and therefore don't bother, they have support that can handle and feel like swapping, yay for them. Some of my support is great, some isn't, so it's not worth it to me.

Sorry I think it does. He hasn't recognized my point, every single point he makes is essentially "we killed Tiamat, I don't need to try harder", followed of course by calling anyone who disagrees a retard who can't read or a close synonym of such phrase. He doesn't bother to try to train his support to be better, he just claims they are good enough to not bother.

As for Correction's point, yes I agree. "Sub-par" was a poor choice of words, given that I'm sure his LS performs well above average. I didn't mean to call that into contention. Let's substitute instead "I guess if you don't want to maximize, that's your choice, but not the choice I would make", which has been exactly my point the entire discussion.

Again, you and your friend merely flamed me and said, "I suck", not that I wasn't "All I can be". Valisk is actually agreeing with me on my point, saying he, unlike you, understands I'm not purely a shitty tank because I don't blink out.

I'm not arguing that you suck for not blinking. You just arent maximizing your potential/gear if you dont. Would you agree with that Judai?

Yea, I was just trying to point out that the argument is/should be "You arent maximizing" rather thatn "OMG no blink, no skillz" minus a few quickdraw flamers

Reading back it seems it was more your counterpart who was the one saying "OMG YOU SUCK FOR NOT BLINKING OUT". You started off with the maximizing thing but you flamed like it was some huge deal, when it's not. So really, hit that hate cap 1m before me because 15m into a fight both Tanks better be at max hate anyways.

I already said I understand your points several times, you on the otherhand don't understand a world where your support is not perfect and some of them may not be able to handle blinking tanks. That's where I live and that's who I tank for sometimes, therefore I try not to fuck myself over and blink out to where they can't cure me if I need it. Like I said many times, if I'm holding shit with the better support members, I blink out more because I need it. I however work with my co-tank so don't need the extra hate/seconds off Utsu.

It's kinda sad Valisk and I come to an understanding and you can't seem to grasp anything but your "perfect little world". Valisk and I have a nice history of hating each other. You guys, more so your friend Seebo, chose to flame and chose to flame on a stupid subject so you got my flames back. Call me a shitty tank or an idiot and I will do the same back to you when you are so apparently wrong in your early assumptions. You backed your friend who was a blatent idiot in his rebuttal and you got some of the backwash, so sorry.

[Correction]

So the ultimate answer to the question is Shit is Situational.

With the corollary that 'Seebo's a cunt.'

[Ashira]

and Ashira, NIN/DRK is easily the easiest thing in the world to get hate on.

I never said it wasn't. I was essentially saying that because of the abilities NIN/DRK has as a job combo, I'm not necessarily big on stacking +Enmity on that job. Some other NIN/DRK tanks I co-tank with may, and thus may cap out sooner, but in the end there aren't issues keeping/sharing hate.

So again, why is it I need +4 Enmity over my Refresh on PLD? You make a big deal out of me saying the Refresh is helping. Yes I over stated it a bit but it still helps and like others said, I think you over state the strength of +4 Enmity.

I said the gear is situational, and you came at me saying Ares is better than anything anything anything else a PLD could wear, essentially, because that 1 MP/tick (one of Odin's lolPLDs chimed in with you here about that, which didn't help your case in my eyes) made you so much more able to do so much more curing - which is where I made the point you were getting basically one more whole Cure I per minute; when in that minute I can see other pieces doing more for you.

PLD/NIN is different than NIN/DRK because you have less spammage ability with spells and ability timers, etc and are more likely to lose shadows and possibly take a hit, which is fine because you're built to do that. But with what spells you do have, many of which are a bit higher costing than what a NIN/DRK uses (and don't do anything if no one loses any HP), you want to make them count for more to regain the enmity you're constantly losing. NINs have more spammage ability and their principally used body piece with dmg down also has a high Enmity rating on it. This is why I agree with whomever on swapping in AF2 for Flash, maybe even the high end Cure IVs (leave it off of Cure IIIs or lower) and your best hate grabbing abilities. Just in the testing I've done with Kaeko, and co-tanking with dual NIN/DRKs on HNMs, and being parts of fights where we had a PLD/NIN and a NIN/DRK and seeing the differences there... that's what I would say would be optimum.

I also said I can see situations where full-time Ares is perfectly acceptable; my Dynamis LS has some really strong PLDs doing mob calling for their alliances, and one has gone pretty much full time Ares since he got it.. and in that situation it totally works. He has more attack for like, wonky demon defense and he has that MP which yes, is going to be helpful; and who fking cares if he has hate because we have 10 other melee hitting the mob and he won't keep hate anyway after a RNG or SAM go nuts. He has to change target to call next mob anyway!

If your thing works for you, then that's fine. I just don't think you can come in here acting like it is the absolute optimal and only thing a PLD should have and wear and it completely revolutionizes your PLD abilities. I paid you a very great compliment in my first post retorting the necessity of Ares for PLD and you completely missed it: that it's probably more like your skills have been honed nicely but you didn't really take notice of changes, but then you get the big shiny and suddenly it seems like you do so much better, and you attribute it to that rather than having learned more what works best with your LS. I'd rather say "I learned something" than say "I got a big shiny drop" any day, but whatever floats your boat.

[Rocl]

If you think 1 mp/tick is not useful, Ashira, you WAY overestimate the value of 4 enmity

1mp a tic? please I got 4mp/tic (in assault lols)

I'm crying because I don't have Poison Tasters cape

[Ashira]

If you think 1 mp/tick is not useful, Ashira, you WAY overestimate the value of 4 enmity

1mp a tic? please I got 4mp/tic (in assault lols)

I'm crying because I don't have Poison Tasters cape

It's 1 MORE MP a tick, Rocl. Most PLDs have at least 4-5 going already, maybe more if they have more support or Gjallarhorns. Etc.

reporting Rocl for trolling, he added nothing to this conversation.

[Ohemgee]

If you think 1 mp/tick is not useful, Ashira, you WAY overestimate the value of 4 enmity

1mp a tic? please I got 4mp/tic (in assault lols)

I'm crying because I don't have Poison Tasters cape

It's 1 MORE MP a tick, Rocl. Most PLDs have at least 4-5 going already, maybe more if they have more support or Gjallarhorns. Etc.

reporting Rocl for trolling, he added nothing to this conversation.

Ethereal can get you up to 20 MP if you're lucky.

Bad luck maybe

[Ashira]

If you think 1 mp/tick is not useful, Ashira, you WAY overestimate the value of 4 enmity

1mp a tic? please I got 4mp/tic (in assault lols)

I'm crying because I don't have Poison Tasters cape

It's 1 MORE MP a tick, Rocl. Most PLDs have at least 4-5 going already, maybe more if they have more support or Gjallarhorns. Etc.

reporting Rocl for trolling, he added nothing to this conversation.

Ethereal can get you up to 20 MP if you're lucky.

Bad luck maybe

Ethereal doesn't work on ticks.

And if you're a PLD/NIN who never fully drops shadows and takes hits, it doesn't do much either.


And... that's a lot of damage and you've probably lost a lot of Enmity then.

[Sesar]

Solution: SE needs to make gear that is usable in all situations; forward gear progression instead of this sideways, situational bullshit. Either that or disable gear swaps when in combat (yeah, I said it).


EDIT: And another thing, the whole "Your mages should..." argument about making multiple macros for individual people is pretty ridiculous. I'm fairly certain that even the most staunch advocates of gear swapping don't particularly enjoy writing pages of marcos. It's tedious and arguably unneccessary (as this thread has proven). Add to that the fact that not everyone in this game is god's gift to their job and you have a recipe for an overwhelming majority of pretty mediocre or average players. You can't force someone to play in a way that they are uncomfortable with, or do something that they are unfamiliar with. You can talk to them and make suggestions, but that doesn't mean anything will change. The only thing you can do is make the most of the situation you have, not belittle someone else for not trying to be as uber as you try to be.

Everyone is capable of doing everything this game has to offer with reasonable success, and I'm confident to say that swapping gear every 5 seconds is not the reason why.

[Valisk]

Yea, I was just trying to point out that the argument is/should be "You arent maximizing" rather thatn "OMG no blink, no skillz" minus a few quickdraw flamers.

Give up, anyone who speaks out against Judai is an idiot or a retard. He has no intention to make an effort to understand the arguments presented against him, the thread is getting circular and should just be locked. He doesn't think he has to optimize because he has no interests in pushing his LS or his DD's to try harder. His point is "we're good enough, we don't need to be better." Awesome use of $15/mo, but it's his money and not mine.

Yea, I'm on the same server as Judai and have had my fair share of drama with him for many many years lol.

Valisk and I have a nice history of hating each other.

[Ohemgee]

If you think 1 mp/tick is not useful, Ashira, you WAY overestimate the value of 4 enmity

1mp a tic? please I got 4mp/tic (in assault lols)

I'm crying because I don't have Poison Tasters cape

It's 1 MORE MP a tick, Rocl. Most PLDs have at least 4-5 going already, maybe more if they have more support or Gjallarhorns. Etc.

reporting Rocl for trolling, he added nothing to this conversation.

Ethereal can get you up to 20 MP if you're lucky.

Bad luck maybe

Ethereal doesn't work on ticks.

And if you're a PLD/NIN who never fully drops shadows and takes hits, it doesn't do much either.


And... that's a lot of damage and you've probably lost a lot of Enmity then.

You work like a tick.

[RKenshin]

I should stop being lazy and go get the final CS for Ethernal. I've had the CS open for almost a year and just never did it because I didn't really want the earring.

I've decided I'll get it if/whenever I complete full Usu (gogo 0/73 on head!) just because I feel the same as Aurik does about how awesome the huge amounts of Eva on Usu are.

But, thinking about it more, it might be worthwhile to just cancel shadows and face-tank myself to full MP for fun in some fights! And hey I may even whip out DRG/WHM.

[shirak]

This is probably a realization by many here:

This:

SE needs to make gear that is usable in all situations; forward gear progression instead of this sideways, situational bullshit.

just isn't going to happen.

It seems apparent to me that SE has chosen to lock itself into not outdating gear and invalidating the current endgame events they have setup and also not to alienate their longtime subscribers (japanese perhaps).

For my drg and thf, I've seen the str/dex era of heca and the acc/haste era of homam and now the salvage sets that wont outdate old gear until you have the full set (and look how rare they made those drops ><).

Its actually a good thing for sidegrades rather than upgrades because you don't have essentially the same pieces just x.15 with harder mobs. Instead, we get more versatility (albeit more blinking .

[Grey Jorildyn]

PLD/NIN is different than NIN/DRK because you have less spammage ability with spells and ability timers, etc and are more likely to lose shadows and possibly take a hit, which is fine because you're built to do that. But with what spells you do have, many of which are a bit higher costing than what a NIN/DRK uses (and don't do anything if no one loses any HP), you want to make them count for more to regain the enmity you're constantly losing.

that depends on the playstyle of the Paladin. In reality, you have more spammage and more MP to do that spamming with. A NIN/DRK can cycle through all the Absorbs, Stun, Bind, Sleep and be out of MP. A Paladin can spam Cure III for ~+35 (or more) enmity every 3s and make hate soar. NIN/DRK has no advantages over PLD/NIN in terms of spell spammage, and if you want to comparse job abilities, all those the NIN would use cannot be merited while the Paladin's can be taken down to 4:10. That's nearly three Sentinels in the time of two Souleaters. Both JAs also reduce damage taken of a given type, so they provide utility greater than the /DRK stuff. Who's constantly losing enmity? Not this Paladin, that's for sure.

Ares's Body: Like most things around here, maximizing is the way to go, but I've always found blinking to be kinda silly because it is unnecessary. It's not even for the healers, it's for me. It's really annoying to lose my locked target on a mob all the time. It's not the Ares's Cuirass that makes it great alone. Yes, it is having your head piece back, but it is also coupling it with a Parade Gorget. What's better than 1mp/tick? 3mp/tick! (thanks Auto-Refresh). You're not comparing 20mp/tick to nothing. You have to look at is as 40mp/min (trait+gorget) to 60mp/min (trait+gorget+cuirass [+50% increase]). Taking it even further, look at it over the course of the average length of battle. A Tiamat in 30mins, that's 1800 extra mp. That is fairly significant when you're a tank imo.

[Bagel]

I've played sirius PLD once in the past... year at least I think, but here's my take: If your mages aren't lazy princess, they should be able to deal. This doesn't mean you should spam the hell out of gear blinks though for marginal gains. Personally, where I to all of a sudden become a PLD main again, I'd probably blink for Ni (because marginal haste gains are relatively important here) and for an hp-swap cure self macro.

[RKenshin]

that depends on the playstyle of the Paladin. In reality, you have more spammage and more MP to do that spamming with. A NIN/DRK can cycle through all the Absorbs, Stun, Bind, Sleep and be out of MP. A Paladin can spam Cure III for ~+35 (or more) enmity every 3s and make hate soar. NIN/DRK has no advantages over PLD/NIN in terms of spell spammage, and if you want to comparse job abilities, all those the NIN would use cannot be merited while the Paladin's can be taken down to 4:10. That's nearly three Sentinels in the time of two Souleaters. Both JAs also reduce damage taken of a given type, so they provide utility greater than the /DRK stuff. Who's constantly losing enmity? Not this Paladin, that's for sure.

I think that Ashira was more trying to say that you're not as free to spam as a NIN would be. Sure, you could spam endless Cure IIIs but you'll lose hate faster than you gain it if you end up getting hit all the time. With PLD your freedom, or free time to cast spells, is just more limited than a NIN's (which is what I think her point was). With the extra shadow, higher odds of parry/evade, and faster recast timers a NIN can afford to spam more without risking taking damage. At the same time though, PLD doesn't completely attempt to avoid damage like NIN does.

In addition, it's worth mentioning that as NIN you can almost endlessly spam Stun/Bind/Sleep/Blind/Slow without running out of MP with balladII/refresh (you mentioned otherwise.. and using absorbs as /DRK is usually a really bad idea now), which you almost always have as a tank. This also factors into it being more spammy, because PLDs don't tend to cast chainspell style like a NIN may. In the end there's really no argument over who is casting spells more often between them.

I don't see how any of that has to do with PLD vs NIN/DRK though. <.< Might've missed her point! Or I'm misreading. D:

And well, every tank job is constantly losing enmity! -60/second! All conventional tank jobs have proven they're capable of hitting and maintaining hate near/at the enmity cap though, that is old news.

[Spider-Dan]

So yeah, about Salvage gear...

Skadi isn't exactly amazing, speaking as RNG/THF/COR. (edit: until now I didn't fully realize how pathetic COR's gear selection is, so I guess skadi is pretty good.)

Head:
RNG- AF+1 is better
THF- sidegrade at best from turban/denali/lolhomam
COR- Respectable, but COR tends to need ACC/RACC from optihat

Hands:
RNG- seiryu drops are better
THF- Homam/Dusk are better
COR- w.hands

Legs:
OK, Skadi legs pwn for all

Feet:
RNG- sidegrade from relic, maybe
THF- homam
COR- skadi is good
-the existence of striders and w.legs marginalizes one of the primary benefits (I imagine BST loves them though)

Body:
RNG- osode
THF- skadi is awesome (as long as you don't own mandau)
COR- skadi is awesome

But since RNG and COR get precisely dick from kings anyway, it's not much of a debate. As for THF... if you had to choose between kings (n.head, n.legs) and salvage (body, legs)... yeah, I'd still go with kings.

[Kaces]

ridill and ebody is overrated

[Weeks]

Usukane set simply isn't a good option for Ninja. The absolute best Usukane can do is still 15.5% slower than an optimal attack speed build (And a conventional Usukane build will be more than 20% slower), with 7% less accuracy if you choose meat for Usukane build, sushi for non. Attack food simply doesn't make up for a more than 21% decrease in hit rate and the resultant loss of both DoT and Jin frequency.

[RKenshin]

I think it could be more debatable if you assuming perfect gear and merits. I realize this has been compared like 3 times in this thread, but using my own spin on gear!

I'm going to compare these two:

Mix & Match
Main: Unji/Senji/whatever
Sub: Perdu
Ammo: Bomblet
Head: Turban
Neck: Hope
Ear1: Brutal
Ear2: Supp
Body: NIN+1
Hands: Dusk+1
Ring1: Sniper+1
Ring2: Sniper+1
Back: Cerb+1
Waist: Speed
Legs: Byakkos
Feet: Usukane

Totals + Sushi:
- Acc: 66 + ~55 = 123
- DEX: 20
- Att: 84
- STR: 6 + 5 = 11
- Haste: 22% + 10% Dual
- StoreTP: 8
- Eva: 2.5

Full Usukane
Main: Unji/Senji/whatever
Sub: Perdu
Ammo: Bomblet
Head: Usukane
Neck: Hope
Ear1: Brutal
Ear2: Supp
Body: Usukane
Hands: Usukane
Ring1: Sniper+1
Ring2: Sniper+1
Back: Cerb+1
Waist: Speed
Legs: Usukane
Feet: Usukane

Totals + Curry:
- Acc: 91.5
- DEX: 17
- Att: 82 + ~100 = 182
- STR: 19 + 7 = 26
- Haste: 19% + + 5% Dual
- StoreTP: 13
- Eva: 33

Difference of Usu and Curry vs Mixed and Sushi
98 Attack, 15 STR, 5 Store TP, 31.5 Eva VS 31.5 Accuracy, 3 DEX, 3% Haste, 5% Dual


This is including merits and DEX/STR from gear conversions. I think it's really close though.

In fact, I'm pretty sure I'd go with choice number 2. Even using crap food, it's still about 60 more attack. 31.5 Acc is pretty insane, but the thing is 91.5 melee acc will put you at 87-94% on birds and about 85-91% at Mamool. So, effectively it's more like:

60 Attack, 13 STR, 5 Store TP, 31.5 Eva VS 1-10% Accuracy, 3 DEX, 3% Haste, 5% Dual

Since with perfect gear you could viably eat meat with full Usu I think that it could potentially be a viable alternative. Especially since more Eva effectively allows you to spend less time casting shadows, which in reality could make more of a difference in total attack rounds than 3% haste would.

Although to be fair, with all the extra acc set #1 has it'd probably call for using different rings and such. Which would help to close the gap a bit more.

In the end it's probably still a toss up I suppose.