SCH vs RDM in Salvage

[parabola04]

My salvage group usually goes with anywhere from 6 to 9 people. Usually we have BRD RDM SCH MNK WAR SAM THF and sometimes an extra RDM or a BLM. The point of this topic is me (the RDM) and the SCH both disagree about who should get cells first. I believe that, for the most part, the RDM should be getting the cells first, before the SCH. They argue that they should get the cells first. A good example of this is zhaylom remnants. We recently did this and the 3 jobs we unlocked first were SCH WAR and MNK. I believe a fully geared RDM has much more to offer then a full geared SCH. RDM can haste, refresh, cure, sleep etc etc. Our SCH argues that they add en spells, stoneskinga, phalanxga, graviga etc and all of those spells warrant SCH getting first dibs on gear, after the 2 main melee. Anyways I just kinda wanted to see what people thought about this topic. Discuss! and Thanks.

[Zosi]

It's irrelevant what a fully geared RDM can do vs a fully geared SCH. The cells that matter are ability and subjob, both of which, I'd argue, give MUCH more benefit to the group when given to a SCH compared to a RDM. It's not particularly hard to get subs/abils for your critical mages on most runs anyways. Gear goes to your main healer, whichever of you it is. Whichever of you is in the support role can do your job fine with pretty minimal gear, trust me, particularly with a strong two mage+BRD setup like that.

Edit: On runs where we anticipate getting a decent number of cells, our SCH gets abilities/subjob/magic FIRST, usually right out of the chest. Enspells and Phalanxga make your kills go so much faster and easier that it'd be foolish to unlock a WHM or RDM in preference.

[Gaea]

The cells that matter are ability and subjob, both of which, I'd argue, give MUCH more benefit to the group when given to a SCH compared to a RDM.

Edit: On runs where we anticipate getting a decent number of cells, our SCH gets abilities/subjob/magic FIRST, usually right out of the chest. Enspells and Phalanxga make your kills go so much faster and easier that it'd be foolish to unlock a WHM or RDM in preference.

Agreed. Arrapago Remnants is the only run I usually don't snatch all three of those right out of the box.

As the Scholar in my group, I say scholar. The Red Mage also said I have a "messed up priority" in this regard. Their argument was that they can Haste, Refresh, and Cure better if they got more cells.

My argument was that I can, Stoneskinga, Phalanxga, Graviga, Bindga, Sleep, Sleep 2, Sleepga, Sleepga 2, Raise, Raise 2, Reraise, Reraise 2, Curaga IV, Protectra IV, Shellra IV, Stona, Erase, Erasega, Paralynaga, Enfirega, Enwaterga, Enblizzardga, Aero IV, Blizzard IV, Fire IV, Water IV, Stone IV, Cursnaga, Blindnaga, Regen II, Regenga II, better if I got more cells.

Red Mage needs magic around 3rd or 4th, Abilities around 5th, Subjob around 5th, and everything else 5th or higher to be able to do its job just as well if it got all of its cells first. Scholar needs Abilities, Magic and Subjob all at the same time to be able to do its job correctly and a lot better than a Red Mage can do with just those three cells.

[pchan]

You give magic to SCH first for the same reasons you would give magic to WHM first. Regen III beats refresh anytime. As for ability I think the rdm shouldn't get ability first in the first place, but after the 3 main melees, so waiting for the 4th is no big deal. I don't think you should give SCH ability before the 3 melee though. The only thing that actually make kill faster is enspell-ga, while phalanxga, stoneskinga dont make kill faster, it makes you use less MP.

My group is usually going WHM,BRD,RDM wtih rdm puller and backup healer, so SCH would easily replace WHM.

[darkamulet]

The cells that matter are ability and subjob, both of which, I'd argue, give MUCH more benefit to the group when given to a SCH compared to a RDM.

Edit: On runs where we anticipate getting a decent number of cells, our SCH gets abilities/subjob/magic FIRST, usually right out of the chest. Enspells and Phalanxga make your kills go so much faster and easier that it'd be foolish to unlock a WHM or RDM in preference.

Agreed. Arrapago Remnants is the only run I usually don't snatch all three of those right out of the box.

As the Scholar in my group, I say scholar. The Red Mage also said I have a "messed up priority" in this regard. Their argument was that they can Haste, Refresh, and Cure better if they got more cells.

My argument was that I can, Stoneskinga, Phalanxga, Graviga, Bindga, Sleep, Sleep 2, Sleepga, Sleepga 2, Raise, Raise 2, Reraise, Reraise 2, Curaga IV, Protectra IV, Shellra IV, Stona, Erase, Erasega, Paralynaga, Enfirega, Enwaterga, Enblizzardga, Aero IV, Blizzard IV, Fire IV, Water IV, Stone IV, Cursnaga, Blindnaga, Regen II, Regenga II, better if I got more cells.

Red Mage needs magic around 3rd or 4th, Abilities around 5th, Subjob around 5th, and everything else 5th or higher to be able to do its job just as well if it got all of its cells first. Scholar needs Abilities, Magic and Subjob all at the same time to be able to do its job correctly and a lot better than a Red Mage can do with just those three cells.

Fancy spell list but no haste and what on the first few floors hits hard enough to need such hardcore curing?

[Zosi]

Fancy spell list but no haste and what on the first few floors hits hard enough to need such hardcore curing?

RDM needs a single cell to Haste, magic. So what exactly are you arguing? Why does a RDM need ability and subjob over a SCH, when ability/subjob for a RDM only leads to better MP efficiency (rarely a problem once you're past the "oh noes only one person has magic" hump) and ability/subjob for a SCH leads to massively increased kill speed, less MP used in the first place, and greatly increased crowd control abilities.

It's a different situation if you only have to choose ONE hybrid healing job for a run, but when you have both, I think it's pretty clear that giving ability/subjob to the SCH over the RDM is the obvious choice. As I mentioned in my first post, gear from there should always go to whichever is designated the main healer, with the other receiving gear after the other critical members, as any other backup mage would.

[shihei]

In short.

Scholar roxxorz your boxerz down to your sockserz.

[fishstix]

I kinda suck at rdm in salvage... how do you keep haste and phalanx on melees? >.> I never seem to have any MP until the brd or whm gets magic.

[Gaea]

It's not really all the curing at the start. It's the aoe enspell, phalanxga, stona, erase, and stoneskinga. There's usually very little curing needed. SCH just needs more cells to be do all of that compared to RDM who really just needs magic to meet its peak function in salvage (excluding Mega Boss runs in which both SCH and RDM should be unlocked by then anyways). Also the example by the original poster "Zhayolm Remnants". If you've already had to feed more cells to Scholar in the first place for them to perform their function, you might as well make them the primary job to unlock. Red Mage will have abilities and magic since the first floor and will get a MAX MP on the third. What else does it really need to functon. A few select pieces of gear can help it out too, but that's about it.

[Lordwafik]

For me it depends on zone and chest.

In bhaflau for example, if we only get 1 opacus, I'd gladly let the melees take it over me. If 2 opacus drop then i'll take the second one and SJ and magic so I can give AOE stoneskin/phalanx/enspells.


Enspells do a shit ton of damage on floor1 in bhaf and arrapago. Stoneskin/Phalanga(higher mindyou than phalanx2) and enspells > anything haste can benefit you on floor 1.


In my little group I sometimes put together with friends on weekends, I don't even go RDM anymore, we just go SCH WHM BRD as backline. Thank goodness there's another job that can compete with RDM and now the RDM has to be good to earn his spot 8)

[Gaea]

Yeh, now we just need Hastega as a meripo option. It can cost 112ish MP like the Garuda BP too, but it sure would fill a need

[Mojo]

I don't really understand how SCH leads to a 'massive increase in kill speed' over RDM. You have to give up ability cells which could otherwise be used by melee jobs. In some cases(Zhayolm etc.) this isn't as a problem, but in others(Arrapago etc.) it is. A practiced RDM with good merits only needs a single magic cell to allow your group to plow through the first floors.

[Lordwafik]

I don't really understand how SCH leads to a 'massive increase in kill speed' over RDM.

When your melees hit for an extra 17-36+ per hand, it increases the speed by a lot, especially if you have a lot of dual weilders, my group only takes dual weilders pretty much or multihit attackers(soboro on sam). No amount of haste can add what damage the enspells do in salvage low floors.
True that they take up one more ability cell to function, but the benefits to this increase everyones damage, not just one person.

You have to give up ability cells which could otherwise be used by melee jobs. In some cases(Zhayolm etc.) this isn't as a problem, but in others(Arrapago etc.) it is. A practiced RDM with good merits only needs a single magic cell to allow your group to plow through the first floors.

and a subjob if you want to be fully efficient. a sch needs these two and one more cell. RDM takes 2 cells for max efficiency, SCH takes 3 cells. Not a big deal.

[Mojo]

I have no doubts that the enspell damage is good, but you're neglecting the fact that a melee has to give up ability and weaponskill usage to receive them. You're looking at Haste for all melees versus enspell for all melees and one less melee who can use weaponskills/abilities. I think if there is any real difference, it's highly exaggerated.

[Aemora]

Tortoise (Sch) and the Hare (Rdm).

Whilst the Hare can do his shit quickly, he soon burns out of speed, whilst the Tortoise ploughs along and eventually wins!

k bad analagy, but better suited is this: JA to Melee, they get WS, which is fine and all, but spike dmg every what, depending on melee, every 8-12 swings? So Enspell for 36 dmg a hit (36 x 8/12 = 288/432) vs Weaponskill for perhaps a little bit more? Along with JA to Sch's, not only do you get Enspells, you also get Stoneskinga, which absorbs a stupid amount of Dmg, Phalanxga which is again with the lowering of damage taken, AoE Poison, Erase, Stona, uhhhh... Erase...



Also, Stoneskinga and Erasega owns in SilverSeas for Fomor Slow and Drown~ Much prefer Not running out of MP > Someone pulling hate with WS, taking all dmg, and dying, cuz lolCurebomb that one person.

[Cream Soda]

Not sure as to who should get what if one magic drops, but if 2 drops, and they both happen to get magic, I believe SCH should get JA and Subjob over a rdm hands down every time.

[Mojo]

RDM gets Phalanx II, which is enough to keep going without ever slowing down. It's more expensive MP wise, but I can still manage to keep Haste and Phalanx II up on the melees and keep going non-stop. Our way of doing Silver Seas 1F is to just have everyone charge in with Phalanx II and auto attack(even for the 6), I don't see how having a SCH would change this strategy or improve survivability.

[Lordwafik]

RDM gets Phalanx II, which is enough to keep going without ever slowing down.

Phalanx2 does less than a Scholar's Phalanxga. Phalanx2 costs more MP to keep it on everyone (42 mp on each cast VS 42mp on everyone in range).

Our way of doing Silver Seas 1F is to just have everyone charge in with Phalanx II and auto attack(even for the 6), I don't see how having a SCH would change this strategy or improve survivability.

You don't see how a higher potent phalanxga, stoneskinga, and extra damage on all their hits can improve survivability?

[Mojo]

I see how it could improve survivability, but it's all pretty moot. Phalanx II takes most 1F hits down to zero, so the increase in potency and the Stoneskin aren't necessary at all.

[Lordwafik]

Not always 0. And then hammerblow room and those hit a bit harder. People still take damage from AOE, drown doesn't care about phalanx, while on the other hand stoneskin entirely absorbs it. If multiple peoples HP start dipping I can throw in an aoe regen2. etc etc.

Having played both jobs in salvage RDM for 1y and sch for a month, I can't see a reason for bringing my RDM much anymore. Not a bad thing, not going to keep bringing my rdm out of pity when there's something much better (IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO) to bring, but to each their own.