SCH vs RDM in Salvage

[Cream Soda]

I see how it could improve survivability, but it's all pretty moot. Phalanx II takes most 1F hits down to zero, so the increase in potency and the Stoneskin aren't necessary at all.

Even if phal II brings those hits to zero(Which it hasn't in my personal experience, low, but hardly ever zero), as Wafik pointed out, its still 42 mp/person vs 42 mp/everyone in range

[Not Kuno]

Sch can never replace Rdm in salvage for me. For the bosses, having Slow2 and Para2 helps a ton. I do replace the whm with my sch sometimes though, going rdm/sch/brd for the support jobs.

[Alibeemac]

I am in Cleos's (Zosi's) group and absolutely no way do we ever give a rdm anything first. RDMs for us don't even main heal. If there's no SCH, theres a WHM. RDM are pretty much last for us on the magic list too and sometimes don't even get a magic cell if its no dropping whore Arrapago. They are expendible imo. I have been on RDM in runs before and 100% agree and accept that I should be last for stuff even if it means spectating the whole run (The only exception being hat cell which RDM gets first if they have Relic but does not use until they are given magic). The only zone where we don't take SCH now is Arrapago since the cell rate there is so crappy that it is 3 cells that we possibly can't afford to waste. Every other run tho, including Frogs, we give to SCH as main heal. Stoneskinga, Phalanga, Enspellga, Erasega, everything people have named far outweighs anything else. Frogs we always give one of the magic 3 jobs to the main healer either way so whatever happens SCH gets all their cells anyway. I just cannot see a situation where RDM would be better than SCH or even WHM. Sorry :/

[Silpha]

I'm currently waiting our taru rdm/whm/brd/whatever is missing usually, finish his scholar wich is currently 60+. Then it'll be SCH4life for him in salvage <3
Brings way too powerfull tools on the paper to pass on it.
And would make backline rdm-brd-sch, allowing in that our other whm to come perma mnk. win-win situation :D
In that situation, i'll prefer sch got magic first, giving us phalanx (i'm running counterstance from opacus use to exit salvage) and enspell, and then got haste a bit later time/floor when i have gear unlocked to pump it up a bit, or utsu recast.

[Cream Soda]

Sch can never replace Rdm in salvage for me. For the bosses, having Slow2 and Para2 helps a ton. I do replace the whm with my sch sometimes though, going rdm/sch/brd for the support jobs.

Who said anything about not bringing a rdm. The main point of the discussion is which of the two to provide cells first.

[Lordwafik]

Sch can never replace Rdm in salvage for me. For the bosses, having Slow2 and Para2 helps a ton. I do replace the whm with my sch sometimes though, going rdm/sch/brd for the support jobs.

We've done bosses in the past with just BRD + WHM as lone healer / debuffer on the boss even without our spharai and ridill players, your tanks should be fine with slow1+elegy

[Gaea]

On LAC and LBC I'd prefer 2 red mages, lol, and a RDM/DRK for BCC. Even as a huge advocate for SCH I wouldn't elect it to completely erase a good red mage. Tier 2 enfeebles and haste are still great spells that are vital for a smooth mega boss kill.

Like Vegetto said, the point being, I don't think anyone was saying that SCH is a replacement for RDM. It's a very good compliment to a RDM that's slightly more cell dependant than RDM to function properly. I've done runs where I've focused more on unlocking RDM first and more on unlocking SCH first and the runs that unlock SCH first are the ones that seem to go the smoothest, particularly early on.

[Ahlah]

SCH sounds like a handy job. I don't really have much experience with the job itself but judging from the above posts I am more interested in finding out which job has greater impact on DD performance. Phalanxga and Stoneskinga sound cool but I think my group can live without it. Recently our melee have been asked to carry as many hi-pot as they can and I always bring a tank and give out hi-pot to melee right before we enter even though I play mage job most of the time. The benefits really outweight slight inconvenience since RDM can focus on curing main tank and each hi-pot restores 100hp which is equipvalent to 25% hp of a fully locked Taru. Non-tank melee usually require no more than 5-6 hi-pots before WHM and BRD unlock magic.

17-36 damage from enspell really surprises me. If I remember correctly, en-spell damage for a RDM with capped enhancing magic is around 20 (doen't include weather/day factor). I assume that SCH will have lower base enhancing magic. Does one of the fancy new SCH JAs actually enhance the effect of en-spell?

If only Sublimation is a spell not a JA >.>

Also I can understand the argument between RDM and SCH but how will giving WHM first magic cell be more beneficial? Phalanx2 beats regen anytime not to mention RDM has Refresh. Am I missing something important?

[Maxxthepenguin]

SCH sounds like a handy job. I don't really have much experience with the job itself but judging from the above posts I am more interested in finding out which job has greater impact on DD performance. Phalanxga and Stoneskinga sound cool but I think my group can live without it. Recently our melee have been asked to carry as many hi-pot as they can and I always bring a tank and give out hi-pot to melee right before we enter even though I play mage job most of the time. The benefits really outweight slight inconvenience since RDM can focus on curing main tank and each hi-pot restores 100hp which is equipvalent to 25% hp of a fully locked Taru. Non-tank melee usually require no more than 5-6 hi-pots before WHM and BRD unlock magic.

What. The. Fuck.

You do realize that you get a magic cell in that initial chest, right? And 1f mobs hit so weakly that 1 healer can cover it.

[whoami]

As others have said here no is saying sch> rdm or rdm>sch but sch does a lot of things rdm can do typically more effeciently. Enspells in partys depending on total weapon delay and job will add 5-10% more dmg over the corse of a party. This is dmg with out increased tp feed to the mob. a rdm with full unlock will do -22 dmg phalanx (barring merits in enhancing magic) while a sch full unlocked will do -26 dmg phalanx (barring merits in enhancing magic).
that may not seem like a lot but let us consider this as well:
256 base enhancing magic both jobs. (with light arts up)
no equipment unlocked phalanx 1= -23 dmg (46 mp last 4 minutes?)
phalanx 2 (3 merits)= -20 dmg (-22 at 300 enhancing magic) (46mp * 3 people last 3 minutes cost 132 mp)
Sch SS will be 262 abosrbed dmg with 66 mnd and 256 enhancing magic (on 3 melee cost 56 mp last 5 minutes) (350 cap once you get more mnd options unlocked)
haste 15% increase dmg (40*3 melee 120 total)
enspells 5-10% more dmg w/o tp feed 36 mp last 4 minutes.
Both heads give increased mp a tic (though sch needs hp unlocked)
Both have a refresh body
Rdm tier 3 nukes poison II bio II dots
SCH tier 4 nukes and strongest dot in the game + bio II if /rdm or /blm (needs int unlocked for helix to properly work)

Basicly sch needs more cells unlocked then rdm (magic vrs magic sub ability) but both if main healing would need the same cells. SCH prevents more dmg then rdm can and allows melee to be more dmg oriented and less down time for the entire party. Down side is sch must get into range of aoes typically to provide buffs. Sch/rdm also has access to every rdm tier 1 debuff and stonger nukes and dots if called to do so. RDM will allow faster shadows and better dot with haste but does not prevent more tp on mobs due to this dmg. I've ran as a sch/rdm in a few area's with a rdm. Typically once i get ability sub and magic unlocked melee typically never hit yellow hp (even on gears) and floors 1 and 2 go a lot faster and safer then a rdm main healing them. At later floors melee are in less damger of aoe attacks and mp last a lot longer (chariots gears mega bosses frogs). The rdm also typically has more mp to focus on debuffs and crowd control if needed and once hp is unlocked does not have to worry about refreshing another person. Again whichever job is used as main healer you need the same cells:
magic> curing
sub> spell selection for assisting curing (rdm na's ga's sch phalanx SS)
ability> rdm (convert) sch (strategums ??spelling??)
Both jobs need these cells to function to there best but both jobs can just "get by" with magic unlocked.

[Amastacia]

In my little group I sometimes put together with friends on weekends, I don't even go RDM anymore, we just go SCH WHM BRD as backline. Thank goodness there's another job that can compete with RDM and now the RDM has to be good to earn his spot 8)

Crap.

That said, SCH does make better use of SJ and Ability cells than RDM. I dunno why a RDM would get dibs over a SCH, if you have both.

SCH is pretty damn good for Salvage, it's kind of frustrating as a RDM, really. I don't think I'd be anywhere near as comfortable taking a SCH as the only healer as I would RDM or WHM (1 mage + BRD party of 6), but the sheer utility of the job is pretty gross. They one-up way too many of RDM's tricks for my taste, but SE never asked my opinion.

[Ahlah]

What. The. Fuck.

You do realize that you get a magic cell in that initial chest, right? And 1f mobs hit so weakly that 1 healer can cover it.

Perhaps you should read the post more carefully, every1 keeps saying SCH helps to improve survivalibity because of Phalanxga and Stonekinga, what I am trying to say is if all melee bring their own hi-pot the benefits of Stoneskinga and Phalanxga are less significant. Using medicine on first floor frees up your healer which means they can use their mp to enhance melee performance. It's all down to which job can improve your DD damage more.

May be I should elaborate more, benefits of giving RDM first magic cells are:
1) Access to haste spell
2) MNK#1 get first JA and SJ
3) SlowII, ParalyzeII

Giving SCH first magic cells:
1) Enspellga
2) Need first JA and SJ on top of magic

That's all I can think of, my question is - which job is going to make your melee kill stuffs faster? I assume both jobs have access to Dia2 and Gravity.

[Genosync]

Wafik just fucking mentioned it in this thread, why don't you pay more attention.

enspell 17-36dmg/hand >>>>>>>>>> haste spell over the course of time

not only that, but having in your head that you have zero risk of death because the healer has mp (aka didn't get screwed over by cells), and you are almost always at full hp, makes the decisions you take as a melee quicker to make and also with the mindset of doing damage without caring whatever else happens.

RDM will run out of MP for those purpose long before SCH will even have a chance. SCH is epic in terms of MP management--you've just gotta have a SCH who's not a fucking moron.

[Zosi]

What. The. Fuck.

You do realize that you get a magic cell in that initial chest, right? And 1f mobs hit so weakly that 1 healer can cover it.

Perhaps you should read the post more carefully, every1 keeps saying SCH helps to improve survivalibity because of Phalanxga and Stonekinga, what I am trying to say is if all melee bring their own hi-pot the benefits of Stoneskinga and Phalanxga are less significant. Using medicine on first floor frees up your healer which means they can use their mp to enhance melee performance. It's all down to which job can improve your DD damage more.

May be I should elaborate more, benefits of giving RDM first magic cells are:
1) Access to haste spell
2) MNK#1 get first JA and SJ
3) SlowII, ParalyzeII

Giving SCH first magic cells:
1) Enspellga
2) Need first JA and SJ on top of magic

That's all I can think of, my question is - which job is going to make your melee kill stuffs faster? I assume both jobs have access to Dia2 and Gravity.

Speaking from quite a bit of experience as both a mage and a Salvage MNK tank, SCH support absolutely annihilates RDM support in terms of kill speed. Hasting 4 melees and keeping up Phalanx II takes an order of magnitude more MP than Enfirega and Phalanxga, and your argument about melees bringing Hi-pots is laughable at best. Yes, if your melees bring enough pots, you probably don't need healers at all! But don't they have better things to do on the first few floors than spam Hi-Potions? I know I'd rather just keep punching things. You talk about freeing up a healer's MP to enhance party damage? Guess what, a SCH doesn't have to "free up" any MP, they can enhance their party's damage, reduce their damage taken, and still main heal the leftover damage without any real issues, and without depending on melees to spam pots.

You may not want to believe this, but many groups (including mine) have had great success using SCHs as a direct replacement for RDMs, and we're well aware of the tradeoffs and benefits of both jobs. You don't have to keep screaming "BUT SCH DOESN'T GET HASTE ZOMG", we know, and we've found it to really not be as big of a problem in most cases. In the few cases where it is a problem, we have no issue with bringing RDM+SCH or WHM+SCH and letting the SCH take more of a SMN-style support/DD role on the later floors, or just letting our SCH come BLM and going with a traditional setup. Believe me, those instances really are pretty rare.

[Kaeko]

Another small advantage of SCH over RDM and WHM is access to -na series spells as well as Dispel. I suppose giving SJ to RDM/WHM gives you almost all -na series, but it's cool to have a job with all that to start.

The haste discussions has already been discussed but I'll chime in again since people keep missing it. SCH first cells means no haste, but enspells do double damage on 1F and I have a hard time believing Haste beats out enspell in 1F.

MP efficiency is really nice on SCH. Phalanx II is not the same as Phalanxga not only for slightly better damage reduction, but drastically improved MP cost and duration. Same with Stoneskinga over normal curing - or Regen II AoE.

I will admit that the amount of utility isn't truly needed on boss fights though. AoE -na spells are still kinda cool though.

(I think everything I mentioned in this thread was said like at least twice, but people seem to miss it).

[Zosi]

I will admit that the amount of utility isn't truly needed on boss fights though. AoE -na spells are still kinda cool though.

The boss fight that's the exception is Zhay, it's absolutely wonderful to have a SCH giving out full-strength Stoneskin for Discoid. For the rest, I'd agree, with the provision that I'm curious to know how SCH crowd control works on charmed people during LAC fights. Bindga/Graviga could be *EXTREMELY* useful if they properly wipe shadows and target multiple charmed players, but based on my experience with other spells, I'm not sure if they will.

[Kaeko]

I will admit that the amount of utility isn't truly needed on boss fights though. AoE -na spells are still kinda cool though.

The boss fight that's the exception is Zhay, it's absolutely wonderful to have a SCH giving out full-strength Stoneskin for Discoid. For the rest, I'd agree, with the provision that I'm curious to know how SCH crowd control works on charmed people during LAC fights. Bindga/Graviga could be *EXTREMELY* useful if they properly wipe shadows and target multiple charmed players, but based on my experience with other spells, I'm not sure if they will.

I think if you -ga the spell, it would only target 1 player (not 100% sure on this).

I think you shouldn't have too much issues on LAC charms to begin with though since it will usually inertia stream the dangerous melees. There is also a lot of kite space to work with such that bind/graviga shouldn't be necessary imo.

Also, yea I agree 100% about Zham boss.

[Ahlah]

and your argument about melees bringing Hi-pots is laughable at best. Yes, if your melees bring enough pots, you probably don't need healers at all! But don't they have better things to do on the first few floors than spam Hi-Potions? I know I'd rather just keep punching things.

If you give JA to MNK tank, most of the time MNK is the one taking the beating and other melee only need cure when they are taking hit from aoe which can be taken care from using hi-pot and only take 1 sec to use. Mp conservation from Stoneskinga and phalanxga doesn't really sound that useful to me from what I have observed over the last few salvage runs. Since we never use SCH, hi-pot + phalanxII has been working well for us and I dont see the need of adding Phalanxga and Stonekinga.

What I am more interested to find out is whether enspellga is really more beneficial than RDM haste + MNK getting first JA cell. As I said before 17-36 enspell damage really surprised me. Even for RDM with capped enhancing skill + gear, the best enspell damage is probably sitting around 20. Unless SCH JA somehow enhances the effect of enspell I find it hard to believe they actually do more damage than RDM enspell. I know ppl keep saying they have smoother runs with SCH and part of the reason is because of stoneskinga + phalanxga which don't really interest me at all.

Status cure spells is a good selling point though.

[Zosi]

What I am more interested to find out is whether enspellga is really more beneficial than RDM haste + MNK getting first JA cell. As I said before 17-36 enspell damage really surprised me. Even for RDM with capped enhancing skill + gear, the best enspell damage is probably sitting around 20. Unless SCH JA somehow enhances the effect of enspell I find it hard to believe they actually do more damage than RDM enspell. I know ppl keep saying they have smoother runs with SCH and part of the reason is because of stoneskinga + phalanxga which don't really interest me at all.

With Light Arts up, SCH has 256 base enhancing skill, which equates to 17.8 damage Enspells without weather. However, weather is a SCH's plaything, and putting up the appropriate storm spell on yourself before you cast Enspellga does indeed increase the damage by 10%, bringing it up to approximately 19, depending on how they round during the calculations. A RDM with 304 skill from gear and no weather bonus gets 20 damage Enspells. In other words, a SCH's Enspellga is every bit as powerful as a RDM's. The 36 comes from the fact that most first-floor mobs take increased damage of all types, and enspells are no exception. Resists are pretty minimal, particularly if you use the element that the mobs are weakest to and/or the element matching the day.

[Veli]

Melee>Mages ability..