SCH vs RDM in Salvage

[Lordwafik]

Melee>Mages ability..

After the first melee gets his abilities, I prefer everyones damage rising significantly over 1 person giving us his weaponskills but ok.

[Veli]

Melee>Mages ability..

After the first melee gets his abilities, I prefer everyones damage rising significantly over 1 person giving us his weaponskills but ok.

Yea.. Everybody does there own thing. I like seeing Darkness skillchains go for like 1800-2500 from the start. It really doesn't matter how you do it as long as you're killing all NMs in zone + mega boss and still have time on clock.

[Ahlah]

BTW I typed out the last post when my dynamis ls was doing dynamis-xarc, and Duelist Chapeau finally dropped for me X)

3 yrs wait is long enough lol

[Ambir]

SCH enspell can really do 36+ damage per hand?

[Lordwafik]

SCH enspell can really do 36+ damage per hand?

All depends on the zone. I haven't tested Zhay, but I know in Bhaflau that mobs were taking that much, and Arrapago.

[whoami]

*warning wall of text*

as far as crowd control it would be no diffrent then ga'ing gravity and bind on a nin mobs (works tested it in dynamis/exp).to ga though you need to be in dark arts though with a stored strategum which would mean sch cann't relly cure if there doing that. Though with int unlocked and a weapon should do decent helix dmg and higher bio II (just for dot purpases)then rdm and tier 3/4 nukes to speed kills up.
Also as far as job ability for dmg lets compare 3 melee (say 2 mnk and a thf for arguement)
job ablity on 1 mnk gives them 500-700 asuran fist every 22 hits. (5 sec delay per round) If we take the high end of 700/22 we end up with a extra 36 dmg per hit for 1 melee.
Now 2 mnk a thf with a average of 30 extra dmg per hit (taking the high of 36 and low of 24 and averaging it) now to show what it relly is looking like:
1 mnk/nin with ws 700 extra dmg (max assumed first floor) (every 60 sec at 95% acc) and no weapon
1 mnk no ws no weapon
1 thf with dagger (sence most zones thf will get TH+1 dagger asap depending on zone)
net extra dmg just 700 per 19 hits connected on 1 mnk
net dmg negation -20 per maxed phalanx 2 to keep 3 up every 3 minutes cost 156 mp

2 mnk no ws no weapon
1 thf with dagger
1 sch/rdm with ability
extra dmg 30 per hit and a total of 5 hits per round (2 each mnk 1 thf)
12 attack rounds per minute per mnk 95% acc puts you at 11.5 hit per minute
thf 3.5 sec per atk round 17 per minute
with merits triple atk at 5 that 10% chance to triple total of 19 per minute
@95% acc thats 19 atks per minute
so 19+17*2(both fist)*2(both monks)= 106 hits per round
so 30*106=3180 extra dmg per minute
at latter floors it probly will drop to a average of say 15 so 1/2 the overall dmg
thats 1590 per minute
All this is before any haste to adjust the delay ratings of any weapons

and to just compare lets see what 15% haste does w/o any ws considered
mnk +48 delay weapon (destoryed +delay correct me if im wrong)
just haste is 15%
5.8 delay per mnk atk round (without any other haste figured in)
5.8*.85=4.9 delay per round
thf/nin DW 200 dealy daggers =5.8 base delay now
so same delay for both now
THF 21 hits to 100 tp so
mnk 21 hits to 100 tp
11 rounds to hit 100 tp thats
mnk 11*4.9= 54 sec
thf 11*4.9=54 sec
compared to 5.8 dealy and 64 seconds to tp before.
18% dmg increase in dot and 18% incrase in tp feed
by comparsion a 15 dmg enspell to be less then that % increase in dmg you would have to hit for a base dmg per single hit of
.18=15/base dmg (x in this case)
.18X=15
X=15/.18
X=83

So at 83 dmg per hit enspell is = the same % of dmg gained
when only comparing haste alone vr enspell

If you want me to bust out more mnk and enspells dmg i will though i will say as haste incrases enspells dmg goes up exponentially as well due to lower delay. Haste will cap at a point enspell dmg is uncaped as its a function of delay reduction like a addition weapon swong at the same time with no tp feed to a mob.
End result enspell> haste given other delay reducing sources aviable.

[Liseth]

I just think all of the controversy between which is better is all caused by RDMs who don't have SCH leveled to actually see how effective it really is in Salvage. Yeah, it kinda puts us out of a job, but it's probably a good thing there's another viable mage job we can take to Salvage now, not having to rely totally on having a WHM, or RDM, or BLM for that matter anymore when those jobs are unavailable for us to choose from. Not to mention a lot of the people who support the use of SCH have both jobs to 75, and have weighed the benefits of both jobs tipping in favor of SCH (especially for the first floor) over RDM in cell priority.

In short, naysayers should stop being emo about it and be happy that SCH can help us make our Salvage runs more efficient by allowing us to see Hoshikazu Hakamas and Nemain's Crowns drop night after night that much faster.

[Ahlah]

I am scared to read any SCH related debate because ppl who like the job are so defensive even a simple question can provoke them.

I totally agree SCH is a very good support job in salvage. I think most ppl come here to look for strategy/ways to make their salvage runs go smoother. For those who never use SCH in salvage (including myself), the important question is whether inviting a SCH is going to improve their salvage run the same way how MNKs completely change the concept of Salvage tanking. We hear ppl level MNK just for salvage all the time, if the benefit of giving SCH first magic/SJ/JA is significantlly better I will definitely consider taking the job to 75.

Whoami's post listed some basic numbers but I think the real situation is much more complicated. Giving MNK first JA also allows MNK to use various job abilities, it also means that other melee will get JA cells faster to access their job specific abilities (feint, angon, SATA etc) and open up the possibilty of skillchain. In zone like Arrapago I still think MNK should get first SJ cells. We have runs when our THF failed to steal SJ cell from QTH and none of the mobs on Bhoot floor drop any SJ cells, can't really imagine fighting Bhoot without a blink tank.

I can see enspellga being extremely useful if you enter with a big group. Basically the more melee you bring the more damage you can do, even jobs without h2h skill can deal damage without weapon cell (e.g. BRD).

Most salvage groups are already able to clear NMs+ megaboss even before SCH was introduced. I think a better way to compare the 2 jobs is to list your party setup and the time you spend on each floor, for example, the best time we cleared 1F west in Silver Sea is 12mins and thats a 10 man party without a SCH. Will like to know if a 10man party with SCH has achieved better result.

[Fridell]

Either way.
My Salvage WHM soon have SCH @ 75, any good idea to make him come SCH instead of WHM and manage fine with SCH RDM BRD and RDM for basicly all things you can do in salvage? Or SCH WHM RDM BRD? I dont know, sometimes it feels like that can be too much mage support, other times it works fine.

[Ahlah]

Replacing WHM with a SCH seems ok but shellV is so shiny...

Btw, has anyone confirmed Barthundera cut Discharge damage? We tried it last time seems to work.

[Fridell]

Intresting, Barthundara for Discharge, more info please!

[Thris]

Ability cells:

Main DDs 1st
Sch 2nd
Rdms 3rd
Everyone else 4th


Sch has so much more to offer through his abilities.

[Ryuushin]

I'm usually RDM for salvage 90% of the time and when you're the only RDM with magic, it's silly to haste because it costs too much MP. With that being said, haste would not be better than SCH's enspell-ga because you'd have 3-4 melees doing 17-36 dmg per hit(as mentioned in previous posts) versus 1 extra swing every 6-8 hits?

[Ahlah]

Haste is not the only factor involved. SCH/RDM needs more than just magic cell - giving first JA cell to MNK tank so that he/she can use WS, focus, chakra, etc, also means other melee get JA faster.

Enspell does double damage on Qutrub, so does Asuran Fist.

[Valyana]

Intresting, Barthundara for Discharge, more info please!

Last LBC our WHM kept Barthundra up. It did 8 Discharges, each tank got a half-resist one time for a grand total of ~150 hp saved each. Doesn't seem worth the trouble to me.

[Lordwafik]

Haste is not the only factor involved. SCH/RDM needs more than just magic cell - giving first JA cell to MNK tank so that he/she can use WS, focus, chakra, etc, also means other melee get JA faster.

Enspell does double damage on Qutrub, so does Asuran Fist.

Who is saying give the first JA to sch? I swear people don't read these days.

[Ahlah]

How the hell is SCH going to put enspellga/phalanxga/stonekinga on melee without JA?

SCH can use light/dark arts and stratagems without JA cell?

[Daiiawn]

It seems pretty simple to me (although i havent had a sch along yet). If you get 2 magic cells in chest go rdm > brd (assuming you have rdm, if not then sch anyway), with your mnk (or main dd) getting the single opacus. If you only have one magic cell (and therefore 2 op cells) go with magic to sch, opacus1 to mnk, opacus2 to sch?.

In either case id imagine giving the rdm or sch first sub? I personally dont see any real reason to be giving the monk first subjob, it adds so little on the early mobs that its not worth it, id prefer getting the rdm parlyna or sch access to ss/phal. The only zone where you dont get a load of subs early is arra, and in the case of arra, theres nothing before floor 4 bhoot/psyche that your monk realllllly needs sub for (but having parlyna on your rdm or -ra buffs on sch would be a boost early on).

To my thinking the Ja Cells with a sch in pt would be similar to when i have a cor, if 2 drop in chest cor gets one, if not he has to wait (which is fine as it means we had a 2nd prae for brd buffs).

Please correct me if im well off here, not had sch in salvage yet so would be good to know before i do xD

[Ahlah]

It seems pretty simple to me (although i havent had a sch along yet). If you get 2 magic cells in chest go rdm > brd (assuming you have rdm, if not then sch anyway), with your mnk (or main dd) getting the single opacus. If you only have one magic cell (and therefore 2 op cells) go with magic to sch, opacus1 to mnk, opacus2 to sch?.

Wow this really makes sense to me. One of our WHM is leveling SCH (currently at 57). Will probably try RDM + SCH + BRD setup and use your method to decide whether RDM or SCH should get first magic cell.

Come to think of it, SCH should replace WHM not RDM. I don't see the point of bringing a WHM to salvage anymore. ShellV and R3 are nice to have but SCH is so much more mp efficient than WHM esp if you take into consideration that Sublimation not only save RDM mp but also wakes SCH when put to sleep.

[Genosync]

It seems pretty simple to me (although i havent had a sch along yet). If you get 2 magic cells in chest go rdm > brd (assuming you have rdm, if not then sch anyway), with your mnk (or main dd) getting the single opacus. If you only have one magic cell (and therefore 2 op cells) go with magic to sch, opacus1 to mnk, opacus2 to sch?.

Wow this really makes sense to me. One of our WHM is leveling SCH (currently at 57). Will probably try RDM + SCH + BRD setup and use your method to decide whether RDM or SCH should get first magic cell.

Come to think of it, SCH should replace WHM not RDM. I don't see the point of bringing a WHM to salvage anymore. ShellV and R3 are nice to have but SCH is so much more mp efficient than WHM esp if you take into consideration that Sublimation not only save RDM mp but also wakes SCH when put to sleep.

It's called Cure V and status cures without anything but Magic cell and not regulated by a job ability timer.

WHM has Repose now too, and that's not exactly that bad of a spell to have.

And I don't really know how you have 11 35s, which would require a ridiculous amount of Salvage time, and can actually think like this... unless you have 11, and the rest of your LS altogether only has about 20.

And you proved yourself even more of an idiot by upgrading Marduk hands and sitting with a Macha's crown to complete Morrigan. Just stop posting, you don't even know what you're talking about and you can't even keep your own shit straight.