Flaw in "Updated" User Agreement?

[Koyangi]

posted from a member of my LS in private forums, wanted to see what BG has to say about it:

Ok, here is the deal. I was with my homegirl who happens to be a board certified attorney, and she was reading the POL agreement that showed when I logged on.

She notice something that stated that we have no ownership, rights, or privileges to the character or data that we created and invested time in. Well, here is the thing, since it is installed on a private unit, and its a paid legal service, like we use AOL or iTunes, the data and character is actually in factor 75% ours. It turns out that SE wants us to forfeit some of constitutional rights on the game or not to play it. By agreeing to those turns, they are "Gagging" us from ever defend ourselves, our rights under this games and the constitutionals rights, and privileges and rights as a Consumer.

The is a break in the Consumer Law. This what we need to know. We are protected under the Consumer Law.
These Regulations give consumers protection from unfair standard terms in contracts with businesses. Unfair standard terms are those which attempt to weigh the contract against the consumer and in favour of the business, eg a term which stated the business accepted no liability for death or injury or which sought to introduce penalty clauses. A consumer is not bound by an unfair standard term in a contract. Also, the Office of Fair Trading can step in to protect consumers in general by seeking to prevent the continued use of any particular unfair term. This power has been extended to other bodies, including the Trading Standards Service

So, I am not saying that we should protest, though we should. However, I feel that we should not sign our rights over to a company for their capital gain and total neglect to the rights of the consumer. I would be damn, if I invest a handful of hours....no, years, and let a company terminate my account without exercising my rights for a speedy trial or public review.

:elmer:

[ronin sparthos]

1. SE can bend your constitutional rights because it is their game, consumer laws get sketchy when it comes to the internets.
2. The EULA is mainly a deterrant, granted this ever went to court a lawyer could argue holes in the contract and force SE's hand - but how many people will go to court over FFXI?
3. If your hooked on the game, what does the contract matter - you click through it and ignore the fine print, like many other things in life.
4. People break the TOS daily, the only reason SE updated the agreement is because they want a way to completely shut down people they may possibly ban in the future for botting, RMT, selling accounts, gilbuying. The point was to reinforce that they can do whatever they want so long as you keep clicking agree every login.

[shihei]

And if and when anyone every sues SE over their account being banned....many a judge's heads will explode from mass lulz attacks.

Anyone you all know they don't want to ban the average player, they want your $11.95 and want you to be addicted.

They want to ban the people who make them lose normal players. RMT, botters, etc.

[Tekki]

Have fun trying to sue over international waters

[Sesar]

It's their game and you are paying them for the privilege to use it. They can say whatever they want to in the EULA and if you dont agree and still click OK, well that's just too bad for you. It's not like they are forcing anyone to play the game.

It's no different than buying a movie on DVD. Sure, you own the plastic that its printed on, but all the information on it most certainly does not belong to you. The movie studio is selling you a "usage permit" of sorts to be able to watch it according to their rules (i.e. no copying or public broadcast), and if you don't follow their rules, they are fully within their right to prosecute you.

[shinoniken]

This isn't really anything new, either. Blizzard owns the accounts for all of the online games they've made. It probably goes the same with Sony to EQ, etc etc. And as far as our rights and liberty, that doesn't really fly. That money you pay is like rent, we pay and they let us borrow some space on their server to have our fun. You only own the copy of the game installed on your computer, and they won't take that away. But that character of yours saved on their server, is actually theirs.

[Xarius]

Have fun trying to sue over international waters

Pretty much sums it up.

[Senoska]

Doesn't SE have a NA headquarters in LA? can't you sue them?

[Tricen]

They can probably get better lawyers than you. Thousands of them. With kclubs.

[miokomioko]

I'd say characters and accounts aren't anything actually created by us (apart from some of our names), but more of a recording of our actions/accomplisments in their programs. Not much to claim ownership of on our side.

[Therin]

So, I am not saying that we should protest, though we should.

wut

[fantasticdan]

Doesn't SE have a NA headquarters in LA? can't you sue them?

For?

[Sho]

They can probably get better lawyers than you. Thousands of them. With kclubs.

This is correct. :bagel:

[rezn0r]

politics = horseshit

[Izzy]

politics = horseshit

How does this thread have ANYTHING to do with politics?

[Rocl]

They can probably get better lawyers than you. Thousands of them. With kclubs.

This is correct. :bagel:

Absolute Virtue, Attorney at Law

[ringthree]

Board Certified Lawyer? What country are you in because in the US, the American Bar Association is the organization that governs the qualifications for lawyers.

It sounds more like your "homegirl" is just like the rest of the Phoenix Wrights on this board that act like they have a god damn clue about the legality of licensing agreements or the legality of anything for that matter.

So, for everyone that thinks they have figured out a smart or smooth way that SE "screwed up" their EULA please consider what Phoenix Wright might say to you...
http://www.joystiq.com/media/2006/05...tObjection.jpg

[ShuttleXpC]

1. SE can bend your constitutional rights because it is their game, consumer laws get sketchy when it comes to the internets.
2. The EULA is mainly a deterrant, granted this ever went to court a lawyer could argue holes in the contract and force SE's hand - but how many people will go to court over FFXI?
3. If your hooked on the game, what does the contract matter - you click through it and ignore the fine print, like many other things in life.
4. People break the TOS daily, the only reason SE updated the agreement is because they want a way to completely shut down people they may possibly ban in the future for botting, RMT, selling accounts, gilbuying. The point was to reinforce that they can do whatever they want so long as you keep clicking agree every login.

I'll be referring to a few people's posts so far on this matter.

1) There has already been many cases in which local/state/government law supercedes whatever agreement a company may make you agree to upon using their services. So, in plain English: No matter what they make you agree to, if it violates any sort of government/state law and something were to come of this in court, their agreement would mean jack ****.

2) Japanese legal system is an almost exact model of ours, so suing them (even though we wouldn't have to if ever needed, because they have US offices which is a requirement to own/operate a business in the US, same with car companies releases car's here, game makers, console makers, etc.)

3) I like Milky Way's.

It's just a game in the end though, but the people saying SE can basically do whatever the hell they want because its their game are sorely mistaken, their agreement could say, "Before you click on this play button, you must worship Satan the unholy one 666 rules your world, have a nice day". They could in no way try to defend this sort of thing in court or any other place for that matter if it violated local law.

[Gaea]

Well FFXI is also categorized as a service. Granted you need to pay for the software licenses as well, the agreement concerning your character data is referring to the service end and that's kind of a whole different thing. Any private company is completely within their legal right to discontinue provisions of a service to you. The loss of your character is merely a consequence of this action. As a consumer, the only thing own absolutely is the software. Your license to use the software is subject to the terms that it requires a service (in which you pay a monthly fee for). You agree to this when you install the game. THEN, there's the POL service agreement, and SE's right to discontinue providing it for whatever reason it seems necessary.

Even though SE's completely within its legal right to discontinue service for any reason it does so with discretion. It's main objective is damage control. If you cause a problem that prevents other people from enjoying FFXI as it was intended to the extent of the service that SE has "promised" it would provide, then discontinuing their relationship with you temporarily (if they believe that will be sufficient) or permanently to prevent you from encouraging others to discontinuing their relationship with SE is simply self preservation. It's good business practice for SE to ban you if you are interrupting the game play for other people and I 100% support their right to do and hope that they also block your credit card from purchasing their service again with a different license. However, if you are following the rules, I don't see why you would have a problem with the agreement in the first place.

Like one of the posters above said, alot of the "big" talk is to discourage people from violating their terms of service and interrupting normal game play that may encourage people to quit playing FFXI and hurt SE's bottom line. Banning someone is a big decision and its only when you've done something really serious, or if you've had repeated infractions of minor offenses.

[Linliel]

I'm currently writing my doctoral thesis on informed consent in information technology, with specific mention of End User License Agreements as a case study on why things need to improve in this particular area. Basically it's as people say -- EULAs are notorious legal black holes which... get this... aren't enforceable over local laws. So if there is something that conflicts within the EULA and your local laws, then your laws come first. They can't make you do something illegal in your area, basically.

This is a problem that occurs in Europe and Australia all the time -- you Americans have all these wacky loopholes that can be exploited by companies that don't work here (and vice versa!) but our laws come first, which is why thepiratebay continues to operate, etc.

So yeah, basically, good luck!