LOLelections

[Correction]

derp derp derp

My point is that you blame liberals for absolutely everything that's wrong with America. That's a stupid fucking argument not even worth contradicting because like the very liberals you describe, you are completely unwilling to accept the good they can do for our society.

Your faith in the tactics used in the war on terror is bewildering. Just because there hasn't been another attack on the scale of 9/11 doesn't mean the measures taken nowadays are working as they should be. I sell you a little charm that wards elephants, do you believe it works because you never get attacked by elephants? HAH TAKE THAT TERRORISTS REMOVE YOUR SHOES BEFORE BOARDING OUR PLANES with your actual fucking bombs

Waterboarding is not just 'throwing water in their face.' It's a sadistic fucking practice and it's outright torture: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/ap ... umanrights

The fact that it's being used on people without trial goes against the very rule of law that our nation strives to enforce.

Having your loved ones, pets, friends, or perhaps even yourself irradiated/poisoned/blown up seems like a bad way to run policies.

Running policies based on vague, impractical threats is the worst way to provide security.

Now I don't identify my politics with everything said in the Stereotypical Liberal's Handbook, 2008 Standardized Edition, but your tunnel-vision 'liberals are wrong about everything' stance on things is INCONGRUENT with any attempt of yours to come off as a reasonable, logical person.

[Kuya]

aybe not, but the alternatives are handing them money from the government, which has to come out of our pockets. If someone believes so strongly that their wealth should be redistributed to someone who is unable to afford it themselves, then donate the money to a non-profit organization, if nothing else, much more bang for your buck.

As it should be obvious to anyone by now, the amount required to provide for these people cannot be gathered using donations. You will often not get enough donations, and the amount of cash for these social programs will fluctuate, which means there may be enough for one year, but suddenly there isn't enough for the next, and those people suffer the consequences.

By not allowing people the convenience of hand-outs, it's my opinion that people should work for the things they need in life, rather than be handed it.

I already said that a social program like universal health care isn't meant to fix the problem itself.

We can't bail everyone out, because they are unable to afford the things people who are more wealthy can.

Yes we can, why can't we?

And yes, I totally see where you're coming from. Allowing people to die due to lack of funds seems wrong, but I think it's a greater wrong to allow an entire generation an out that requires no effort.

Errrrrr, what?

The beauty that is America is the belief that with some hard work, and some steadfast determination, anyone can make it.

A myth. You know, those who thought of capitalism as a solution to social and economic woes had the intention of creating a system where people are equal to one another in a relative sense and happy, they were also realists as they thought of classical capitalism as the best possible option, yet how can someone be so unrealistic as to believe that sentence that i'm quoating and support full blown capitalism?

[Beckwin]

Fox, use the bootstraps to get through!

terrible fucking argument that comes almost exclusively from those born into a decent to favorable situation.

[aurik]

If you're rich and paying anywhere near 40% of your real income in taxes, you're doing it unbelievably wrong.

[Senoska]

ITT: neocon cunts (*'-')b

[Masterofshade]

aybe not, but the alternatives are handing them money from the government, which has to come out of our pockets. If someone believes so strongly that their wealth should be redistributed to someone who is unable to afford it themselves, then donate the money to a non-profit organization, if nothing else, much more bang for your buck.

As it should be obvious to anyone by now, the amount required to provide for these people cannot be gathered using donations. You will often not get enough donations, and the amount of cash for these social programs will fluctuate, which means there may be enough for one year, but suddenly there isn't enough for the next, and those people suffer the consequences.
[quote:1cg03ub0]By not allowing people the convenience of hand-outs, it's my opinion that people should work for the things they need in life, rather than be handed it.

I already said that a social program like universal health care isn't meant to fix the problem itself.

We can't bail everyone out, because they are unable to afford the things people who are more wealthy can.

Yes we can, why can't we?

And yes, I totally see where you're coming from. Allowing people to die due to lack of funds seems wrong, but I think it's a greater wrong to allow an entire generation an out that requires no effort.

Errrrrr, what?

The beauty that is America is the belief that with some hard work, and some steadfast determination, anyone can make it.

A myth. You know, those who thought of capitalism as a solution to social and economic woes had the intention of creating a system where people are equal to one another in a relative sense and happy, they were also realists as they thought of classical capitalism as the best possible option, yet how can someone be so unrealistic as to believe that sentence that i'm quoating and support full blown capitalism?[/quote:1cg03ub0]


Can't afford health care? What happened to finding a way to make it work? You think all the emigrants to this country who came here LEGALLY in the past (I'm unsure of the time, I think late 1800s early 1900s? Ya know, Ellis Island yadda yadda) figured they could come over here, sit on their ass, and receive welfare? No. They came here, and worked, and worked hard, to make a better life for themselves, and their loved ones. The way I see it, the attitude of working hard to get the things you need/want still applies today. Go to school, learn a trade, make something of yourself. Got yourself knocked up at 15 and have 4 kids by 23, with no highschool education? Tough shit, you made bad choices, no one's fault but your own. Everyone has an out, everyone has a way of making something of themselves. College, trade school, if all else fails, the military. It isn't the hard working American's job to support those who are unwilling to support themselves, and forcing it on us is criminal in every way.

Maybe donations wouldn't entirely solve the problem, but once again, theft on a country wide scale is wrong, even if it's to save some people. I'm sure there's a lot of hard luck stories out there, where a few people really did just have rotten luck, and are in a pinch. The donations might help those people who really do need it. The ones that want it because they were unwilling to further themselves deserve nothing in my eyes.

So if universal health care won't solve the problem, why institute it? You think companies who are handing money to our "representatives" are gonna stop sucking that golden tit just because it's the right thing to do? Not a chance. Again, we should attack the corporate fascist policies plaguing our government today, and solve the problem at the source: the companies getting the green light from people like Bush to do as they please at the expense of the little man.

Sure we're capable of helping out everyone who doesn't bother to help themselves. In fact while we're at it, why don't we just level the playing field, and make everyone get the same wage? That's a slippery slope argument I know, but it's a very socialist system, and employing this method is entirely wrong.

[quote:1cg03ub0]And yes, I totally see where you're coming from. Allowing people to die due to lack of funds seems wrong, but I think it's a greater wrong to allow an entire generation an out that requires no effort.

Errrrrr, what?[/quote:1cg03ub0]

Bad handouts are bad. Solving a "problem" where vast majorities of the people made no effort to solve their own problems by redistributing wealth is Communistic. It seems incredibly harsh, but let the people die. Absolute worst case scenario, absolute bottom of the barrel, someone can join the military if they have no other outs (my grandfather did this). They will provide food, shelter, payment, a possibility of careers, and once you're out, you'll have money for college or vocational school, or you can choose to remain there. Once again, people that can't make something of themselves don't deserve the patronage of the people who chose to be somebody.

Yeah my last comment was a little overboard now that I read it, thanks for pointing that out. Uncontrolled capitalism is just as evil (chinese sweat shops with 9yr olds is evil, no matter how you dice it). Capitalism needs reins I completely agree there, but allowing the market to decide increases quality, lowers prices, and overall balances a lot of things out naturally, without imposing on people's freedoms. And when I said make it, I don't mean crazy rich, I mean ya know, middle class. House, cars, normal work week, ability to afford medical bills when they come up (which means not living at the absolute limit of their spending capacity) either by making payments, or being forced to draw on some equity, whatever.

The goal isn't to make things easy for everyone, it's to give everyone a chance if they work hard and put forth the effort.

40% isn't a real distant figure. Married, income taxes, sales tax, gas tax, property tax, other purchaseable things that have taxes (tobacco/alcohol are the 1st to my mind). If you actually add all those up, I wouldn't be terribly surprised.

O and Beckwin, I know this is the innanets, but making random Fox News jokes is kinda lame, feel free to follow Kuya's example and actually comment on the things I say.

[Beckwin]

First off, the "Fox, use the bootstraps..." was a play on a Starfox quote... nothing to do with Fox News.

Got yourself knocked up at 15 and have 4 kids by 23, with no highschool education? Tough shit, you made bad choices, no one's fault but your own.

Is it the fault of those children for growing up without good healthcare and only being raised by one undereducated and irresponsible parent? So much for equality and the American dream for those kids, I guess.

You think all the emigrants to this country who came here LEGALLY in the past (I'm unsure of the time, I think late 1800s early 1900s? Ya know, Ellis Island yadda yadda) figured they could come over here, sit on their ass, and receive welfare? No. They came here, and worked, and worked hard, to make a better life for themselves, and their loved ones.

No, but they were treated fucking horribly in many cases and in turn UNIONIZED (or shall we say, formed soviets... DUN DUN DUN) and also inspired a lot of government legislation and checks on capitalism. Also during that era we had child labor problems, iirc. Should I mention the factory massacres? And the racism?

Take off the rosy glasses.

It seems incredibly harsh, but let the people die.

Eat shit and die.

Do you understand how wealth works? Seriously, use your fucking head. Everyone can't be rich. Some can't be rich and the rest be middle class. However, the following do work: everyone is middle class (ideal communism, I suppose), some rich most middle rest poor (what we have now), and some rich majority poor (where we're headed? idk. could happen in corporate fascism or anarcho-capitalism. this was how feudalism worked, though- middle class virtually nonexistant.). So given that we want to have capitalism in roughly the mode we currently have it, you have to accept that poor people are necessary. So given that they're necessary, but essentially forced to live an underprivileged existence for the benefit of those economically above them, is it so wrong to take care of them to some degree?

Apparently, you think so. Apparently, you're some delusional shitcake (most likely born into some generally favorable economic situation) who thinks of the lower economic strata as serfs. "Ah well, they're only peasants. As long as my estate is preserved, I have no concern for that rubbish. The government needs to keep it's dirty hands off my hard(ly) earned money, because I can take care of myself thankyouverymuch. Nature is a cruel beast, pip pip cheerio!" Fuck you and fuck everything you stand for.

[aurik]

In before "poor people are just lazy"

Oh, and 40% in taxes is still incredible amounts of fail. You realize that the top income bracket is 35% and that only kicks in on taxable income over $357k? In essence, your first $80k is taxed at less than 25%

Most of the wealthy that would be in the top bracket actually get a sizable portion of their income through capital gains. Done properly, the maximum tax rate on cap.gains income is a paltry 15%.

IOW, 40% = you fail it.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...x_2008.svg.png

[Beckwin]

http://images.salon.com/comics/boll/...boll/story.gif

[Beckwin]

moar, because I'm fired up, good to go

http://images.salon.com/comics/boll/...boll/story.gif

[Masterofshade]

First off, the "Fox, use the bootstraps..." was a play on a Starfox quote... nothing to do with Fox News.

Got yourself knocked up at 15 and have 4 kids by 23, with no highschool education? Tough shit, you made bad choices, no one's fault but your own.

Is it the fault of those children for growing up without good healthcare and only being raised by one undereducated and irresponsible parent? So much for equality and the American dream for those kids, I guess.

[quote:3w23utjo]You think all the emigrants to this country who came here LEGALLY in the past (I'm unsure of the time, I think late 1800s early 1900s? Ya know, Ellis Island yadda yadda) figured they could come over here, sit on their ass, and receive welfare? No. They came here, and worked, and worked hard, to make a better life for themselves, and their loved ones.

No, but they were treated fucking horribly in many cases and in turn UNIONIZED (or shall we say, formed soviets... DUN DUN DUN) and also inspired a lot of government legislation and checks on capitalism. Also during that era we had child labor problems, iirc. Should I mention the factory massacres? And the racism?

Take off the rosy glasses.

It seems incredibly harsh, but let the people die.

Eat shit and die.

Do you understand how wealth works? Seriously, use your fucking head. Everyone can't be rich. Some can't be rich and the rest be middle class. However, the following do work: everyone is middle class (ideal communism, I suppose), some rich most middle rest poor (what we have now), and some rich majority poor (where we're headed? idk. could happen in corporate fascism or anarcho-capitalism. this was how feudalism worked, though- middle class virtually nonexistant.). So given that we want to have capitalism in roughly the mode we currently have it, you have to accept that poor people are necessary. So given that they're necessary, but essentially forced to live an underprivileged existence for the benefit of those economically above them, is it so wrong to take care of them to some degree?

Apparently, you think so. Apparently, you're some delusional shitcake (most likely born into some generally favorable economic situation) who thinks of the lower economic strata as serfs. "Ah well, they're only peasants. As long as my estate is preserved, I have no concern for that rubbish. The government needs to keep it's dirty hands off my hard(ly) earned money, because I can take care of myself thankyouverymuch. Nature is a cruel beast, pip pip cheerio!" Fuck you and fuck everything you stand for.[/quote:3w23utjo]

My bad about the Fox comment.

No, it may not be their fault, but they also aren't my children. I was smart and didn't knock up anyone, so why exactly should I be forced to take care of their children? So that person can run out and have more babies I have to take care of? I'm sure they'd be a lot better off if their parents (most likely only their mother, in all honesty) if she raised by example and taught those children how to be a proper human being, rather than a drag on society. My sister was able to do it, with 2 kids by 18. She got her highschool degree, owns a house, and all 4 of her children are doing well in school, sports, and a number of other areas. Not my problem if someone else lacks the ability to raise their children right, really. That's what CPS is for.

Also, you exactly prove my point about the emigrants. They came to this country, and they struggled, and they fought, and they pushed every fiber of who they were to carve a good thing out of the world around them. Why is it a group of people with vastly fewer things working against them, can't do the same thing?

Been a janitor, been a McDonalds employee so... no. But I do realize that it takes hard work to get anywhere, which is why I'm in school, working hard to make something of myself. My old man had parts jobs, my mom didn't even have a highschool education until she was like 45ish? My Dad is currently in school to become an engineer (2 days til graduation, actually). My Mom owns her own Daycare now. I'm 21, btw. They started in a similar position as any "poor" person, in fact, they were dirt poor for a very long time. But due to tenaciousness, and hard work, were able to take care of me and my brother, always make sure we have food on the table, were able to pay medical bills, and raise us with values. If they can do it, just about anyone can.

Sorry if I don't have any sympathy for the lazy and inept, the irresponsible and the unwilling.

O, and btw, your right to ever call anyone out in a serious discussion is pretty much void now, nice ad hominem attacks. Don't forget to call me evil/fascist/dumb while you're at it, other liberals may be critical that you were too nice to me with a mere fuck you.

[aurik]

In before "poor people are just lazy"

I declare victory.

[Masterofshade]

Yeah yeah Aurik, blahblah graph blahblah. Add up all the taxes us USers pay. It isn't just income tax. Sales tax, Property taxes. I'm dead serious. Years ago "tax freedom day" was figured around April somethingth, roughly 33% of your income going to taxes. Lately, it's been theorized at around June. Sorry no spiffy graph, if I find one I will be sure to post it.

Btw, did you just quote yourself then declare winningness because of it?

Edit: gah my bad, I see what you did there, damnit.

[evilbau]

looks like compassion is in short supply lol

one way to look at it is that as a civilization we have advanced so far, as a society we are as enlightened as we ever have been. There has to be someone bringing up the rear.

[Masterofshade]

looks like compassion is in short supply lol

one way to look at it is that as a civilization we have advanced so far, as a society we are as enlightened as we ever have been. There has to be someone bringing up the rear.

K, I'll count that as evil. Where is fascist/dumb/gay? You're missing a few.

[Beckwin]

So you had two working parents who were active in your life and were able to eke out a middle-class existence while benefiting from lower tax rates, small business tax breaks/loans?, got to send their kids to public school, etc? Great for them. But some kids grow up with much less than that.

CPS is a government funded agency. How many times will you contradict yourself?

Did you miss my point about immigrants entirely? The things they fought for resulted in unions and labor laws that effectively restrict raw capitalism. Unemployment benefits, worker's comp, and arguably medicare and social security are the results of those waves of immigrants. On top of that, you're acting like all of them got off a boat and ended up with a house in the burbs with a retirement fund (all through simple hard work and the wonderfulness of private business, of course).

You lost your right to complain about any kind of attacks when you said "let them die." You've no grounds for crying about anything.

[Kwijiboe]

They're funny comics, but it sorta implies that poor people are ok with their drab lifestyle and never complain about it. I don't think that's the case.

[evilbau]

looks like compassion is in short supply lol

one way to look at it is that as a civilization we have advanced so far, as a society we are as enlightened as we ever have been. There has to be someone bringing up the rear.

K, I'll count that as evil. Where is fascist/dumb/gay? You're missing a few.

I didn't say you were evil. I didn't say or think those other things either. I just think you are misguided and unenlightened. But don't worry, you can dismiss me as just another arrogant, condescending liberal, because thats exactly what I am.

[Beckwin]

looks like compassion is in short supply lol

one way to look at it is that as a civilization we have advanced so far, as a society we are as enlightened as we ever have been. There has to be someone bringing up the rear.

K, I'll count that as evil. Where is fascist/dumb/gay? You're missing a few.

Liberals don't insult people by calling them fags, but I'll go for the "dumb fascist" parts because I'm in an antagonizing mood.

[Correction]

Yeah yeah Aurik, blahblah graph blahblah. Add up all the taxes us USers pay. It isn't just income tax. Sales tax, Property taxes. I'm dead serious. Years ago "tax freedom day" was figured around April somethingth, roughly 33% of your income going to taxes. Lately, it's been theorized at around June. Sorry no spiffy graph, if I find one I will be sure to post it.

Btw, did you just quote yourself then declare winningness because of it?

Edit: gah my bad, I see what you did there, damnit.

Yeah thos sneaky 'students of economics' and their darnnabbed 'graphs' and 'mathematical models' and 'understanding of the tax code.' How dare they contradict your 'lack of evidence' and 'it's been theorized.'

And he predicted you'd take the 'poor people are lazy' route and you did. He wins.