LOLelections

[Masterofshade]

When the hell was I crying? I even said limits on capitalism were a good idea, as unrestrained capitalism is evil.

Working, EXACTLY! THEY WORKED AND BUSTED THEIR ASSES! And yes, I AM saying a lot of poor people are lazy, there's always an out, take it! Financial aid is an excellent tool for people that can't afford college. I know it seems like a handout right off, but it's more like a government investment in your ability to contribute to the tax pool.

Handouts bad, ya know... handing people money with no effort. Helping children whose parents through neglect or outright abuse, and giving them a chance to succeed good. It isn't a handout, it's a method of protecting those who are UNABLE to do so themselves, not unwilling. There is in fact a difference, kudos if you can find it.

Once again, you made my point. Never once did I say they got an immediate house in the burbs, I said they came and they struggled to do good by themselves, and their families. So why again are people, who are benefiting from the actions of these people, by living in a society that sees those accomplishments at work every day, unable to work hard?

[Masterofshade]

Yeah yeah Aurik, blahblah graph blahblah. Add up all the taxes us USers pay. It isn't just income tax. Sales tax, Property taxes. I'm dead serious. Years ago "tax freedom day" was figured around April somethingth, roughly 33% of your income going to taxes. Lately, it's been theorized at around June. Sorry no spiffy graph, if I find one I will be sure to post it.

Btw, did you just quote yourself then declare winningness because of it?

Edit: gah my bad, I see what you did there, damnit.

Yeah thos sneaky 'students of economics' and their darnnabbed 'graphs' and 'mathematical models' and 'understanding of the tax code.' How dare they contradict your 'lack of evidence' and 'it's been theorized.'

And he predicted you'd take the 'poor people are lazy' route and you did. He wins.

And, all I did was merely claim that he's missing some of the data I mentioned. And I wouldn't have said poor people are lazy if I didn't keep noticing it over and over.

I realize he knew what route I was taking, but merely guessing it also doesn't prove me wrong. If you threw a ball in the air, and I said "in before 'ball hits the ground'" and you said it was gonna hit the ground, I didn't make you wrong did I?

Edit: Shit, my bad I was a bit off. Theories does that. Some hard proof, it ain't that far from 40%, I was 10% off. Also, notice it goes down shortly after W taking office? Hmmm.... A small rise again later, but nothing getting too close to 2000.

[aurik]

Yeah yeah Aurik, blahblah graph blahblah. Add up all the taxes us USers pay. It isn't just income tax. Sales tax, Property taxes. I'm dead serious. Years ago "tax freedom day" was figured around April somethingth, roughly 33% of your income going to taxes. Lately, it's been theorized at around June. Sorry no spiffy graph, if I find one I will be sure to post it.

Btw, did you just quote yourself then declare winningness because of it?

Edit: gah my bad, I see what you did there, damnit.

Protip: property taxes are deductible from your taxable income.

As you saw from the graph, actual real income tax rate is far, far below 35%. And virtually anyone (single) with a taxable income of 200k+ (which is around the 25% rate) is very likely to be in the class of people that earn a large portion of their money from capital gains...and also know enough to use other tax shelters such as retirement instruments, etc, so again they'll be liable for even less of a percentage.

About sales tax, most states have sales tax around 4-8%...and people in high tax brackets tend to not-spend a lot of their income.

[Correction]

Once again, you made my point. Never once did I say they got an immediate house in the burbs, I said they came and they struggled to do good by themselves, and their families. So why again are people, who are benefiting from the actions of these people, by living in a society that sees those accomplishments at work every day, unable to work hard?

You honestly just don't understand why poverty exists. Simply noticing a few lazy poor people doesn't prove your 'poor people are lazy' assertion.

[Beckwin]

O, and btw, your right to ever call anyone out in a serious discussion is pretty much void now, nice ad hominem attacks. Don't forget to call me evil/fascist/dumb while you're at it, other liberals may be critical that you were too nice to me with a mere fuck you.

this is you crying/trying to put yourself on a cross

there's always an out, take it!

NO THERE IS NOT ALWAYS A WAY OUT FOR EVERYONE. Distribution of wealth dictates this. If there are rich people, it means there are poor people. SOMEONE has to work the lower paying jobs. SOMEONE has to be unemployed. It sucks, but it's reality.

[Nystul]

My grandfather moved here from Germany in the early 1930's. He came alone, arrived in NYC. He lost (or more likely had it stolen) his wallet the first day he was here. With no money, he made it to California. He worked on farms and saved enough to bring his wife over. Eventually he was able to buy land. That land, in his late years, was prime development property, he sold some of it and died a multimillionaire.

However, not everyone gets the breaks. Some good, hard working people, just get shit on through absolutely no fault of their own.

A practical, humane person must understand that the world is not filled with Rich hard working successful people and lazy, ignorant poor people. In our society, there is a role for a welfare system. A system that provides assistance to those that are in need such that they can get their feet off the ground. A good welfare system is NOT to the detriment, but rather to the benefit of our society as it allows people to once again become productive citizens. Telling poor people "tough shit, just sit there and do nothing" helps no one. It is socially responsible to invest in their improvement because it will pay off over the long term.

However, you socialists are not correct either. An unchecked welfare state becomes a burden. Class enforcement destroys the economy and innovation. The joke that is communism allows for little room in terms of social, technological, and artistic development. By it's very nature, the notion of a single class is impossible. Humans by nature will want to one-up eachother, and therefore there must be people to enforce the maintenance of the classes, meaning you immediately create separate classes and poof, it's already done. Not to mention someone must be in charge of the overseers, and there must be a leader of leaders and well...quite obviously in little time you go from everyone middle class to a few very rich and everyone else really poor. Furthermore, enforced class mediocrity takes out the drive for excellence. Why do better if you can't ever improve your situation? Maintain status quo, and thats it. What a miserable existence! You know, I had a class once. I worked really hard on the first paper, did all the readings...got a C. Next paper I just wrote up quick and barely kept up with the readings. I got a C. It became clear that the teacher did not like me, was not interested in giving me anything other than a C, and therefore I did the least amount possible to continue my C. In a state where welfare is readily available, it is not that dissimilar. Why work hard if the state will allow you to suckle indefinitely? What motivation do you have?

Therefore it should be patently obvious that what is ultimately needed is an efficient, strict, and temporary welfare system that provides more services than simple funds. Evaluate people. Some are trained and just need to pay the bills until they get another job. Fine. Some have no skills. Make their welfare money contingent upon taking classes, or on the job training. Some programs have been put into place and dropped quickly- programs in which people were made to work for their welfare checks. The programs were canned because recipients complained it was "akin to slavery." They were earning money...for working. A good welfare program is a strict father, not a loving mother. A good welfare program is not focused on maintaining an unemployed state (as much of ours seems to be now) but rather targeted towards actively placing the recipient back into the work force.

I'm all for instituting some kind of welfare healthcare policy that operates similarly. Society has a responsibility to help people out. However, going too far means a huge financial burden that quickly pulls the nation into economic disrepair.

[Masterofshade]

Once again, you made my point. Never once did I say they got an immediate house in the burbs, I said they came and they struggled to do good by themselves, and their families. So why again are people, who are benefiting from the actions of these people, by living in a society that sees those accomplishments at work every day, unable to work hard?

You honestly just don't understand why poverty exists. Simply noticing a few lazy poor people doesn't prove your 'poor people are lazy' assertion.

Prove? Nah, I never said prove. From my own personal experience (people I worked with, people I knew, did business with of some sort) tended to be lazy.

[aurik]

Far too intelligent for this thread,

[Masterofshade]

Peace

[Correction]

Once again, you made my point. Never once did I say they got an immediate house in the burbs, I said they came and they struggled to do good by themselves, and their families. So why again are people, who are benefiting from the actions of these people, by living in a society that sees those accomplishments at work every day, unable to work hard?

You honestly just don't understand why poverty exists. Simply noticing a few lazy poor people doesn't prove your 'poor people are lazy' assertion.

Prove? Nah, I never said prove. From my own personal experience (people I worked with, people I knew, did business with of some sort) tended to be lazy.

And for every example you name I can name 10 families living on a combined income of less than 30k/year, work their asses off and still see little/no improvement in their long term economic gain. You see poor people now and think 'well they're just not working hard enough.' I see poor people now and think 'surely they've invested every hour of work into ensuring their children have every opportunity they didn't.

Which, as little as I enjoy sharing personal information over the internet to prove a point, is pretty much the story of my generation. So fuck you and your 'lazy poor people' hypothesis. It's just fucking wrong.

[Delta_9]

My grandfather moved here from Germany in the early 1930's. He came alone, arrived in NYC. He lost (or more likely had it stolen) his wallet the first day he was here. With no money, he made it to California. He worked on farms and saved enough to bring his wife over. Eventually he was able to buy land. That land, in his late years, was prime development property, he sold some of it and died a multimillionaire.

However, not everyone gets the breaks. Some good, hard working people, just get shit on through absolutely no fault of their own.

A practical, humane person must understand that the world is not filled with Rich hard working successful people and lazy, ignorant poor people. In our society, there is a role for a welfare system. A system that provides assistance to those that are in need such that they can get their feet off the ground. A good welfare system is NOT to the detriment, but rather to the benefit of our society as it allows people to once again become productive citizens. Telling poor people "tough shit, just sit there and do nothing" helps no one. It is socially responsible to invest in their improvement because it will pay off over the long term.

However, you socialists are not correct either. An unchecked welfare state becomes a burden. Class enforcement destroys the economy and innovation. The joke that is communism allows for little room in terms of social, technological, and artistic development. By it's very nature, the notion of a single class is impossible. Humans by nature will want to one-up eachother, and therefore there must be people to enforce the maintenance of the classes, meaning you immediately create separate classes and poof, it's already done. Not to mention someone must be in charge of the overseers, and there must be a leader of leaders and well...quite obviously in little time you go from everyone middle class to a few very rich and everyone else really poor. Furthermore, enforced class mediocrity takes out the drive for excellence. Why do better if you can't ever improve your situation? Maintain status quo, and thats it. What a miserable existence! You know, I had a class once. I worked really hard on the first paper, did all the readings...got a C. Next paper I just wrote up quick and barely kept up with the readings. I got a C. It became clear that the teacher did not like me, was not interested in giving me anything other than a C, and therefore I did the least amount possible to continue my C. In a state where welfare is readily available, it is not that dissimilar. Why work hard if the state will allow you to suckle indefinitely? What motivation do you have?

Therefore it should be patently obvious that what is ultimately needed is an efficient, strict, and temporary welfare system that provides more services than simple funds. Evaluate people. Some are trained and just need to pay the bills until they get another job. Fine. Some have no skills. Make their welfare money contingent upon taking classes, or on the job training. Some programs have been put into place and dropped quickly- programs in which people were made to work for their welfare checks. The programs were canned because recipients complained it was "akin to slavery." They were earning money...for working. A good welfare program is a strict father, not a loving mother. A good welfare program is not focused on maintaining an unemployed state (as much of ours seems to be now) but rather targeted towards actively placing the recipient back into the work force.

I'm all for instituting some kind of welfare healthcare policy that operates similarly. Society has a responsibility to help people out. However, going too far means a huge financial burden that quickly pulls the nation into economic disrepair.

Perfect. I wish we'd bring back public work programs.

[Senoska]

I've only read a few of MoS's silly block of text but I'm going to reply to him anyhow. My family was poor when I was young, I had to live with my grandmother for awhile so my parents could save up money to move out, and didn't have much as a kid, but one thing I can 100% fucking assure you, my parents were the hardest working people I know and people like them are the very reason this country works and they don't get paid shit. Unless people like you want to work in shit jobs and factory jobs you best start taking care of the people who are lower then you. If you're making 500,000$ a year you're not going to miss that 50k, or what ever it may be, but it will save the lives (hopefully.) of very very hard working person, illegal or not, People are people. closed borders are fucking retarded anyhow, funny that you're from an immigrant and turn around and hate on the very thing you are.

While someone else took back their fox news joke, I won't, go lick Bill O'Reilly balls some more.

[Masterofshade]

Not the way I've seen it. You think all the trailer trash that make pcp in their trailer, all the ghettos that have forgotten children, all the people that work at McDonalds whose kids don't have clean clothes because their parents have no ambition and are shitty workers, or all the people who grew up right next to their kids because they weren't mature enough for children, and now we have to deal with their mistakes.

There are a lot of people that deal with shit conditions in order to get ahead, boo fucking hoo for them. I've waded through a lot of dog shit, my siblings have, my parents did, their parents did. Why can so many go out every day and work their asses off to get ahead, but we encourage others to take the easy way out. The way that includes no work, no effort, and no person growth?

[Senoska]

Not the way I've seen it. You think all the trailer trash that make pcp in their trailer, all the ghettos that have forgotten children, all the people that work at McDonalds whose kids don't have clean clothes because their parents have no ambition and are shitty workers, or all the people who grew up right next to their kids because they weren't mature enough for children, and now we have to deal with their mistakes.

There are a lot of people that deal with shit conditions in order to get ahead, boo fucking hoo for them. I've waded through a lot of dog shit, my siblings have, my parents did, their parents did. Why can so many go out every day and work their asses off to get ahead, but we encourage others to take the easy way out. The way that includes no work, no effort, and no person growth?

Funny how you kill your own points.

[Maxxthepenguin]

However, you socialists are not correct either. An unchecked welfare state becomes a burden. Class enforcement destroys the economy and innovation. The joke that is communism allows for little room in terms of social, technological, and artistic development. By it's very nature, the notion of a single class is impossible. Humans by nature will want to one-up eachother, and therefore there must be people to enforce the maintenance of the classes, meaning you immediately create separate classes and poof, it's already done. Not to mention someone must be in charge of the overseers, and there must be a leader of leaders and well...quite obviously in little time you go from everyone middle class to a few very rich and everyone else really poor. Furthermore, enforced class mediocrity takes out the drive for excellence. Why do better if you can't ever improve your situation? Maintain status quo, and thats it. What a miserable existence! You know, I had a class once. I worked really hard on the first paper, did all the readings...got a C. Next paper I just wrote up quick and barely kept up with the readings. I got a C. It became clear that the teacher did not like me, was not interested in giving me anything other than a C, and therefore I did the least amount possible to continue my C. In a state where welfare is readily available, it is not that dissimilar. Why work hard if the state will allow you to suckle indefinitely? What motivation do you have?

Therefore it should be patently obvious that what is ultimately needed is an efficient, strict, and temporary welfare system that provides more services than simple funds. Evaluate people. Some are trained and just need to pay the bills until they get another job. Fine. Some have no skills. Make their welfare money contingent upon taking classes, or on the job training. Some programs have been put into place and dropped quickly- programs in which people were made to work for their welfare checks. The programs were canned because recipients complained it was "akin to slavery." They were earning money...for working. A good welfare program is a strict father, not a loving mother. A good welfare program is not focused on maintaining an unemployed state (as much of ours seems to be now) but rather targeted towards actively placing the recipient back into the work force.

I don't disagree at all here, but I really don't know of any real socialists on these boards. Somehow, having the idea that some socialist policies are good and some are bad means you are a socialist. What happened to pragmatically choosing the best parts from each? I'm for capitalism for most of what is capitalistic in our country, but that doesn't mean

I'm all for instituting some kind of welfare healthcare policy that operates similarly. Society has a responsibility to help people out. However, going too far means a huge financial burden that quickly pulls the nation into economic disrepair.

This I disagree with, mostly on the grounds that health insurance and health care are so fucked up right now, so against anyone not under a corporate umbrella, so against most people that it needs to be freaking ripped apart. Because of how things are structured, we have health care with strict time limits, a major lack of preventative medicine (it is better for health but worse for profit to sell actual preventative medicine), and generally worse health care for the average american than other countries that have socialized systems. This is whether you have insurance or not. Profit motive for doctors often runs counter to better health care.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

I get the impression that America is a third world country from reading this thread.

[ertyu]

Broke ass white people... well, they should stop being broke.

ah it's so simple~!

Just flip off the poor switch you idiot, gosh.

[Masterofshade]

If you're going to say you're contradicting me, would you please ACTUALLY contradict me? What if that German guy from the 30s came over here, and the first thing he noticed was he could stay at home and eek by on welfare? Would he have had the opportunity to work hard, and push himself to be a better person?

The answer is of course NO!

I FUCKING LOVE PEOPLE LIKE YOUR PARENTS SENO! Don't you get that? Your parents did damned right by you, and damned right by eachother. They worked their ASSES off to be the best people they could be. That's what we NEED! Those are the people we not only want coming to this country, but being raised here also.

Don't you understand? Doesn't any of this click? Don't you people realize that giving people no choice but hard work for things to get better, we not only encourage positive growth for the native born people, but immigrants also?

Letting people come here illegally, making their first action in our country an illegal one isn't the way to do this, nor are things like free health care, and welfare.

I'm on the same Goddamned side you are, the same freaking one. We ALL want better people, good people, hard working people as our neighbors, as our friends, and as our loved ones. We're not helping anyone by allowing them to exist without forcing them to produce a good work ethic to survive.

You're arguing the same thing I am.

[evilbau]

You make it seem like even with government help it is easy to get out of poverty. It isn't. Even the hard working ones have a tough time. Anyone who is living paycheck to paycheck will be hard pressed to create any savings or generate any assets/wealth. Especially those with kids. In some cases, even with government assistance it is quite impossible for some to move up socially. You should examine why you hate poor people, your lack of humanity does not reflect well upon you.

[Maxxthepenguin]

If you're going to say you're contradicting me, would you please ACTUALLY contradict me? What if that German guy from the 30s came over here, and the first thing he noticed was he could stay at home and eek by on welfare? Would he have had the opportunity to work hard, and push himself to be a better person?

The answer is of course NO!

I FUCKING LOVE PEOPLE LIKE YOUR PARENTS SENO! Don't you get that? Your parents did damned right by you, and damned right by eachother. They worked their ASSES off to be the best people they could be. That's what we NEED! Those are the people we not only want coming to this country, but being raised here also.

Don't you understand? Doesn't any of this click? Don't you people realize that giving people no choice but hard work for things to get better, we not only encourage positive growth for the native born people, but immigrants also?

Letting people come here illegally, making their first action in our country an illegal one isn't the way to do this, nor are things like free health care, and welfare.

I'm on the same Goddamned side you are, the same freaking one. We ALL want better people, good people, hard working people as our neighbors, as our friends, and as our loved ones. We're not helping anyone by allowing them to exist without forcing them to produce a good work ethic to survive.

You're arguing the same thing I am.

You seemed to miss the part where working their asses off wasn't enough to survive. That is what liberals tend to try to fix.


btw, what's your opinion on the estate tax?