LOLelections

[Masterofshade]

Anyways, I gotta roll out, shit to do, poverty stricken people to laugh at, etc.

But seriously, no hard feelings, cept for the ad hominem guys. Here's to hoping you can conduct a conversation minus the YOULOGICISDUMB and asshole/eat shit comments.

[Beckwin]

eat shit, asshole.

stop saying poor people should die off if you want any kind of respect.

[Nystul]

I sometimes wonder...if the world was full of people that objectively looked at issues and simply strived to fix them in the best way possible...if when there were differing opinions on what to do, people would simply pick one and give it an honest, legitimate shot to work, and if it didn't allow another solution to replace theirs...if people were interested in analyzing a solution or idea on it's actual merit...what would this world be like?

Instead, we have a bunch of people that pick sides, that spend more time trying to entirely discredit the "other side's" ideas based on the principle of "they are the OTHER SIDE!" than they do working to actually fix something. So caught up in us vs them.

$1 to the first person that proposes a welfare and healthcare concept that betters society as a whole, that functions in our world the way it currently exists and doesn't screw some group of people (liberals+wealthy, neo-cons+poor) to make an ideological point.

BTW, funny that some of you can say "fuck the poor/wealthy, they suck" and then turn around and say "I can't believe you'd do that to the wealthy/poor. They didn't do anything other than be what they are" You hate one and defend the other for essentially the same reasons, and thats fucking hilarious.

[Ryushii]

Your damn right we have a moral obligation to help people of lesser fortunes. But how can someone morally justify stealing from one person to give to another? Does that person not have a right to do what they wish with the fruits of their labor? Also, in Milton Friedman's book Free to Choose, he has some interesting statistics about welfare. It wasn't until Lyndon Johnson's great society that poverty began to increase. Also, how long has our government been throwing money at the problem and it hasn't gone away?

There are plenty of ways the government can help people without stealing from one person and giving to another. Don't do John McCains stupid ass cap and trade policy. Get rid of payroll taxes. Don't punish corporations for earning money. Deregulate industries. Sign the CFT.

I believe the policy of "stealing," as you call it, from the rich and giving to the poor is done with the idea that, given the choice, the majority of wealthy people, especially corporations and the like, would not actually donate money to help the poor. Simple human nature.

As for poverty being a problem, I think you have also failed to understand the fish analogy. Poverty is necessary in our society, and without government aid it would be much more prevalent. Government aid is intended to push poverty about the "acceptable line," and give people the opportunity to advance up the social ladder. Even with aid, it's not easy. Take that away and hope that the wealthy with more money in their pockets will actually use it to benefit others, and now talk about who is dreaming. Trickle down policies just don't work.

[aurik]

$1 to the first person that proposes a welfare and healthcare concept that betters society as a whole, that functions in our world the way it currently exists and doesn't screw some group of people (liberals+wealthy, neo-cons+poor) to make an ideological point.

HAH if I came up with this idea I certainly wouldn't sell it for a mere $1!

[Obev]

$1 to the first person that proposes a welfare and healthcare concept that betters society as a whole, that functions in our world the way it currently exists and doesn't screw some group of people (liberals+wealthy, neo-cons+poor) to make an ideological point.

HAH if I came up with this idea I certainly wouldn't sell it for a mere $1!

HAH if I came up with this idea I would give it away free, for the glory of the Soviet!

[Nystul]

$1 to the first person that proposes a welfare and healthcare concept that betters society as a whole, that functions in our world the way it currently exists and doesn't screw some group of people (liberals+wealthy, neo-cons+poor) to make an ideological point.

HAH if I came up with this idea I certainly wouldn't sell it for a mere $1!

It's not really hard to do...the hardest part for 99% of people is avoiding putting the screws to whatever group they resent for some stupid reason. I'm not asking for someone to reinvent the wheel, and it doesn't have to be a perfect proposal. Just an idea that works in reality, not the reality your political ideology wishes would come to be, that is a benefit to society, and doesn't fuck with people to prove a point (ie, poor/rich don't deserve it, fuck them!)

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

I believe the policy of "stealing," as you call it, from the rich and giving to the poor is done with the idea that, given the choice, the majority of wealthy people, especially corporations and the like, would not actually donate money to help the poor. Simple human nature.

We might just have to agree to disagree here, but I think that, of the many things that make this country great, American's rich or poor, believing they have a moral duty to help those who are less fortunate, is one of them. There are plenty examples of rich people helping the poor in America.

As for poverty being a problem, I think you have also failed to understand the fish analogy. Poverty is necessary in our society, and without government aid it would be much more prevalent. Government aid is intended to push poverty about the "acceptable line," and give people the opportunity to advance up the social ladder. Even with aid, it's not easy. Take that away and hope that the wealthy with more money in their pockets will actually use it to benefit others, and now talk about who is dreaming. Trickle down policies just don't work.

It wouldn't be more prevalent, there are statistics that show that.

[Kuya]

Ugh, this thread.

[Ryushii]

$1 to the first person that proposes a welfare and healthcare concept that betters society as a whole, that functions in our world the way it currently exists and doesn't screw some group of people (liberals+wealthy, neo-cons+poor) to make an ideological point.

HAH if I came up with this idea I certainly wouldn't sell it for a mere $1!

It's not really hard to do...the hardest part for 99% of people is avoiding putting the screws to whatever group they resent for some stupid reason. I'm not asking for someone to reinvent the wheel, and it doesn't have to be a perfect proposal. Just an idea that works in reality, not the reality your political ideology wishes would come to be, that is a benefit to society, and doesn't fuck with people to prove a point (ie, poor/rich don't deserve it, fuck them!)

What you're asking is tantamount to asking how we can fix poverty in america without a redistribution of wealth. The answer is obviously that we use our magic wands to print more money to give to the poor, without causing inflation or a massive breakdown of our ecnomic system. Dollar please.

We might just have to agree to disagree here, but I think that, of the many things that make this country great, American's rich or poor, believing they have a moral duty to help those who are less fortunate, is one of them. There are plenty examples of rich people helping the poor in America.

Please don't be ignorant. Do you honestly believe that if we were to rescind any help to the poor that all the nice, rich people who like to help the poor would foot the bill? Take off the glasses please.

It wouldn't be more prevalent, there are statistics that show that.

And...?

[Maxxthepenguin]

Um, hire more people to follow up on welfare recipients and add more restrictions and judgments.

Specific details? I'm not sure. I'm no expert. Hell, hire welfare recipients to do the job. Win/win!

[aurik]

If you just kill all the poor people, then there will be no poverty!

[Nystul]

If you just kill all the poor people, then there will be no poverty!

Such a modest proposal

[Beckwin]

BTW, funny that some of you can say "fuck the poor/wealthy, they suck" and then turn around and say "I can't believe you'd do that to the wealthy/poor. They didn't do anything other than be what they are" You hate one and defend the other for essentially the same reasons, and thats fucking hilarious.

If you're referring to me, I don't hate rich people- I hate the idea that some of them get that everyone had the same opportunities as they had, and that if someone is poor it's because they're lazy, and in the most extreme cases, that poor people deserve no aid and should be left to die off.

I do think that overzealous pursuit of wealth is bad. Very bad.

[Nystul]

BTW, funny that some of you can say "fuck the poor/wealthy, they suck" and then turn around and say "I can't believe you'd do that to the wealthy/poor. They didn't do anything other than be what they are" You hate one and defend the other for essentially the same reasons, and thats fucking hilarious.

If you're referring to me, I don't hate rich people- I hate the idea that some of them get that everyone had the same opportunities as they had, and that if someone is poor it's because they're lazy, and in the most extreme cases, that poor people deserve no aid and should be left to die off.

I do think that overzealous pursuit of wealth is bad. Very bad.

The person you were arguing this point with today was, by his admission, not wealthy- so this idea is not exclusive to that group. I think it makes it easy for you to demonize the wealthy because you want to side with the poor. If you were actually objective, you'd say that but follow it up with "but I also hate the idea that some poor people get that rich people are all a bunch of scrooges that keep down the little man, and who are obligated to help them out"

[Kuya]

I don't even know why this is still such an issue in the USA. You're evidently going to need some form of social system to help aleviate poverty to some extent and help deliver assistence to citizens so they may better their economic and social standing in any given pseudo-capitalist society. It should be a little obvious that you don't want to give assistence to those who will abuse it and that it's only meant to temporarely help a person or persons with their troubles while the system also helps them get accomodated. No rational person would contend that the poor should be left to fend for themselves with some false belief that the system is absolutely fair, or at the very least i would hope so.

There aren't even any real capitalist nations anymore, anyway.

[Beckwin]

BTW, funny that some of you can say "fuck the poor/wealthy, they suck" and then turn around and say "I can't believe you'd do that to the wealthy/poor. They didn't do anything other than be what they are" You hate one and defend the other for essentially the same reasons, and thats fucking hilarious.

If you're referring to me, I don't hate rich people- I hate the idea that some of them get that everyone had the same opportunities as they had, and that if someone is poor it's because they're lazy, and in the most extreme cases, that poor people deserve no aid and should be left to die off.

I do think that overzealous pursuit of wealth is bad. Very bad.

The person you were arguing this point with today was, by his admission, not wealthy- so this idea is not exclusive to that group. I think it makes it easy for you to demonize the wealthy because you want to side with the poor. If you were actually objective, you'd say that but follow it up with "but I also hate the idea that some poor people get that rich people are all a bunch of scrooges that keep down the little man, and who are obligated to help them out"

He wasn't rich, but he wasn't exactly piss-broke growing up either. Again, I hate the idea that everyone in reality gets the same opportunities, and that poor people are lazy, and that poor people deserve no aid and should be left to die off. Being middle-class doesn't give you any more license to shit on poor people.

[Nystul]

BTW, funny that some of you can say "fuck the poor/wealthy, they suck" and then turn around and say "I can't believe you'd do that to the wealthy/poor. They didn't do anything other than be what they are" You hate one and defend the other for essentially the same reasons, and thats fucking hilarious.

If you're referring to me, I don't hate rich people- I hate the idea that some of them get that everyone had the same opportunities as they had, and that if someone is poor it's because they're lazy, and in the most extreme cases, that poor people deserve no aid and should be left to die off.

I do think that overzealous pursuit of wealth is bad. Very bad.

The person you were arguing this point with today was, by his admission, not wealthy- so this idea is not exclusive to that group. I think it makes it easy for you to demonize the wealthy because you want to side with the poor. If you were actually objective, you'd say that but follow it up with "but I also hate the idea that some poor people get that rich people are all a bunch of scrooges that keep down the little man, and who are obligated to help them out"

He wasn't rich, but he wasn't exactly piss-broke growing up either. Again, I hate the idea that everyone in reality gets the same opportunities, and that poor people are lazy, and that poor people deserve no aid and should be left to die off. Being middle-class doesn't give you any more license to shit on poor people.

But you don't hate the idea that poor people think they should be taken care of.

You see, it's the same argument from both sides. You're willing to stand up for one but let the other slide.

2 people are born, one to rich parents, one to poor. You'll stand there and say "oh poor person, you shouldn't be picked on. You were born into this" but at the same time you'll look at the rich person and say "fuck you rich person, you were born into this." You see why thats crazy? If the issue is treating people fairly and well, then you have to treat ALL people fairly and well- you can't say treat the have nots fairly and fuck the wealthy.

[Beckwin]

no, because the rich person enjoys their privilege only because there are poor people below him. That truth, along with the really really basic idea of the Golden Rule, motivates my leftist politics. Society is about compromise, and I don't think that it's asking too much for the wealthy person to pay proportionally more taxes so that those allowing for their wealth to exist can live decent lives and certainly not rot away in the streets.

[Nystul]

ohoho, no dear beckwin, that is not the issue. The issue is that you harbor contempt for the wealthy.

You view a poor person born into his situation far differently than a rich person born into his. I find that hypocritical.