War on Drugs in US(DEA)

[archibaldcrane]

Step 1: Ban advertising of legalized coke/heroin
Step 2: ????
Step 3: No lives are ever destroyed by legalized coke/heroin.

I don't see it.

Step 1: Keep coke/heroin illegal.
Step 2: ????
Step 3: No lives are ever destroyed by illegal coke/heroin.

I'm not seeing it.

If "no lives ever destroyed by coke/heroin" is our goal, every solution is an unmitigated failure.

How about legalizing a drug that actually has the potential to help people, That being MDMA, theres been research going on by MAPS for treating post traumatic stress with it and this would actually benefit people.

I'd argue that there's much more proven benefit potential from pharmecuticalizing (yeah I made up a word) cannabis than ecstasy, but sure - proven useful drug therapies are another victim of the drug war.

[Odon]

Legalize em both. Pots not really my thing, but I'm all for it being legalized especially for medicinal use..

[Correction]

Step 1: Ban advertising of legalized coke/heroin
Step 2: ????
Step 3: No lives are ever destroyed by legalized coke/heroin.

I don't see it.

Step 1: Keep coke/heroin illegal.
Step 2: ????
Step 3: No lives are ever destroyed by illegal coke/heroin.

I'm not seeing it.

If "no lives ever destroyed by coke/heroin" is our goal, every solution is an unmitigated failure.

How is a legalization-driven increase in the supply of coke/heroin not the worst kind of failure?

[archibaldcrane]

How is a legalization-driven increase in the supply of coke/heroin not the worst kind of failure?

If you ignore all the other negative aspects of the drug war, and only focus on rate at which coke/heroin is consumed, then you are probably correct. There would probably be more coke/heroin consumed by americans in a situation where it is legal and heavily regulated.

However, in such a situation, drug trade wouldn't be the place that poor inner-city youths turn to as their option for making a quick buck. The "need" for gangs in inner cities, fueled by drug trade, would be significantly less. Ghettos could begin to take back their streets with the lessened drug-turf wars going on. Prison populations would get much-needed relief as law enforcement officers could focus on things other than drug-dealing crimes. An entirely new legal agricultural job base and tax base would present itself in america. Huge drug trade business in south america, afghanistan, etc. would have their biggest customer by far (the United States) disappear. Similar effects regarding reduction in violence and reduction in funding to terrorists via the drug trade would take effect.

All of these above things are reasons to stop the drug war in america through legalization.

But yes, there would probably be more cocaine and heroin being consumed by americans as the result, and there would be increased drug-use problems. It's a tradeoff that some, given the failure of the drug war, are willing to attempt.

[Olo401]

The reason pot is illegal is because alcohol is. The biggest lobbyists against marijuana legalization are from alcohol companies. Money, people, money. Until someone or some organization steps up with some deeeeep pockets, there's no way it's ever going to be legal.

And if the government would just wake the fuck up and realize how much money they could make from taxing it or the bajillion and 1 uses for hemp... I wouldn't be as paranoid when I blaze.

Actually, the fight to make marijuana illegal goes back to the late 19th Century, when there was rampant discrimination against the primary purveyors of marijuana at that period of history - Mexican migrant workers building the nation's railroads. At the same time, there was a lobby made against opium, because its primary peddlers weren't pharmaceutical companies but Chinese migrant workers.

This, among other actions taken to protect the growing corporate power in the country in the name of protecting the citizens, was demonstrated in one single legislative action - the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906. Follow-up legislation including the Marihuana Tax Act of 1937 (repealed) and the Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act of 1970 eventually led to full prohibition of marijuana use. (Yeah, that's right! Pot was technically legal to use and sell, at least within federal jurisdiction, until 1971).

So right now, the only issue lies within the 1970 law which has unfortunately passed several tests of judicial review, including having juriprudence over any state laws that attempt to override it. The proper action at this point would be to either have the FDA reclassify cannabis/marijuana/THC on the drug schedule (which most likely will NOT happen), or for Congress to amend the current law specifically to reclassify it.

[Rizzled]

http://www.sho.com/site/schedules/pr...isodeid=131464

The only movie to watch about the American war on drugs, from perspective of ex-DEA&current, the CIA's involvement in the crack epidemic & Rick Ross, Chong interview, and police who move for the legalization of ALL drugs in America.

TVlinks version was down for myself but I remember I can remember from the documentary

Alcohol related deaths(100,000+ health related) deaths per year
Tobacco 300,000+ deaths
all other drugs 12,000 combined

A large drop in tobacco use has only been seen because of the widespread knowledge of tobaccos danger to you health.. People already today know the harms of heroin/methamphetamines/crack etc, what makes you assume that legalizing would result in a large portion of society using these drugs?

EDIT: preview of film

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-T-UULBj_XQ

[Correction]

How is a legalization-driven increase in the supply of coke/heroin not the worst kind of failure?

However, in such a situation, drug trade wouldn't be the place that poor inner-city youths turn to as their option for making a quick buck. The "need" for gangs in inner cities, fueled by drug trade, would be significantly less.

Organized crime also makes its money by selling stolen legal-to-consume goods. I'm very pessimistic about the idea that legalized cannabis/cocaine/heroin would drive them out of business, simply because the very regulation you propose (to mirror that upon, say, cigarettes) would make the legal stuff incredibly expensive.

[Howard Roark]

How is a legalization-driven increase in the supply of coke/heroin not the worst kind of failure?

However, in such a situation, drug trade wouldn't be the place that poor inner-city youths turn to as their option for making a quick buck. The "need" for gangs in inner cities, fueled by drug trade, would be significantly less.

Organized crime also makes its money by selling stolen legal-to-consume goods. I'm very pessimistic about the idea that legalized cannabis/cocaine/heroin would drive them out of business, simply because the very regulation you propose (to mirror that upon, say, cigarettes) would make the legal stuff incredibly expensive.

do you honestly think an 18 wheeler of ipods makes more than an anal cavity of coke?

[Correction]

How is a legalization-driven increase in the supply of coke/heroin not the worst kind of failure?

However, in such a situation, drug trade wouldn't be the place that poor inner-city youths turn to as their option for making a quick buck. The "need" for gangs in inner cities, fueled by drug trade, would be significantly less.

Organized crime also makes its money by selling stolen legal-to-consume goods. I'm very pessimistic about the idea that legalized cannabis/cocaine/heroin would drive them out of business, simply because the very regulation you propose (to mirror that upon, say, cigarettes) would make the legal stuff incredibly expensive.

do you honestly think an 18 wheeler of ipods makes more than an anal cavity of coke?

do you honestly think organized crime will just roll over and die because they can't sell an anal cavity's worth of coke instead of stolen goods sold at infinite% profit?

[Kuya]

Why are you debating them with the pretense that anything can kill organized crime, Correction? Isn't the point they're trying to make that it can potentially kill this market and therefore decrease organized crime, not that it will magically stop it?

[Correction]

I'd be curious to see the actual numbers on the decrease in organized crime wrought by the repeal of Prohibition.

[archibaldcrane]

Why are you debating them with the pretense that anything can kill organized crime, Correction? Isn't the point they're trying making that it can potentially kill this market and therefore decrease organized crime, not that it will magically stop it?

Exactly, stop speaking in absolutes Correction. Arguing that gangland activity will persist exactly the same by the legalization of coke and heroin is foolish. No one is saying it will vanish, only that it will lessen. Same with prison populations, and law enforcement strain.

Your straw men fail.

I'm not so worried about the "Mafia" or whatever you consider to be "organized crime" - more the inner city ghettos. Both would be hurt though.

[Correction]

Why are you debating them with the pretense that anything can kill organized crime, Correction? Isn't the point they're trying making that it can potentially kill this market and therefore decrease organized crime, not that it will magically stop it?

Exactly, stop speaking in absolutes Correction. Arguing that gangland activity will persist exactly the same by the legalization of coke and heroin is foolish. No one is saying it will vanish, only that it will lessen. Same with prison populations, and law enforcement strain.

You want me to stop with the absolutes then stop with the handwaving and answer these questions:

How much will legal coke/heroin cost? Where does the money go? What disincentive exists for the current underground infrastructure supplying coke/heroin to the streets to not simply undercut the cost of gub'mint smack? How do you enforce such disincentive without repeating the mistakes of the existing Drug War? How does the enforcement of drug policy deal with the real possibility that it will still be possible to break drug laws profitably? How do you determine who it is legal to sell coke/heroin to? How do you write laws that protect civilians disinterested in seeing spent legal drug paraphanalia in the same piles you currently see cigarette butts being disposed in?

Answer these questions and I'll believe you have a better reason for wanting legal drugs than 'I just want to get high without hassle from the cops, man.'

And no we don't simply legalize them now and then figure all this shit out later.

[archibaldcrane]

How much will legal coke/heroin cost? Where does the money go? What the highly regulated marked bears. The money goes to the american entrepreneurs taking advantage of the highly taxed market (taxes to the government of course)
What disincentive exists for the current underground infrastructure supplying coke/heroin to the streets to not simply undercut the cost of gub'mint smack?The same disincentive for an underground market on any variety of goods - market forces. Yes, there are some counterfeit DVDs/Viagra pills/imported Cigarettes/etc. on the market, but market forces push so much of this stuff to the point of not being profitable. You do realize how insanely expensive the easy to produce drugs from common, easy to grow plants (poppies and coca) are given the danger and expense of underground trafficking at the moment?
How do you enforce such disincentive without repeating the mistakes of the existing Drug War?Domestically produced coke and heroin, even with restrictions, should be light years cheaper than imported coke/heroin which has been cut to shreds with revenue taken at every step of the way. The market will force out "underground" drugs of which there are legal, domestically produced, safer versions.
How does the enforcement of drug policy deal with the real possibility that it will still be possible to break drug laws profitably?This is your assumption that I don't think will come to fruition, and neither of us has done the research to predict it's happenstance. It's speculation just to toss a wrench in, and if you demand to know this answer in order to be satiated you're just setting up an argument that may be completely meaningless in order to be stubborn. Some bridges will have to be crossed as they are met.
How do you determine who it is legal to sell coke/heroin to?Age of majority at the minimum, although being as how it's america it'll probably be tied to the stupid alcohol age of 21.
How do you write laws that protect civilians disinterested in seeing spent legal drug paraphanalia in the same piles you currently see cigarette butts being disposed in?"No littering". More severe penalties for syringes. Use your imagination.

Answer these questions and I'll believe you have a better reason for wanting legal drugs than 'I just want to get high without hassle from the cops, man.'I have no desire to use heroin ever, and I clearly spelled out the benefits from ending the drug war. Refer to my paragraph above about ghettos, organized crime, terrorism financing, prison overcrowding, etc. etc. I smoke weed about once a year - my desire to have drugs be legal has nothing to do with my personal desire to use them - I think routine use of any hard drug, and many "soft drugs" is stupid. But I don't desire to legislate stupidity.

[Correction]

Given that the health risks of using coke/heroin vastly exceed those of smoking cigarettes, and given that cigarette prices are incredibly high due to the high financial burden they place on society, I'm not buying the 'gubmint smack will be cheap enough to drive out undrground commerce' argument. The cost of a pack of cigarettes is about half tax, and the very high price on that is not coming down for anybody as it's a tremendous amount of money flowing into state coffers. Why would coke/heroin get treated any differently?

http://nysun.com/news/new-york/concern- ... axes-climb

Articles like this are where I'm getting the 'it'll still be profitable to sell drugs in the ghetto' side of my argument and I can't help but think we're risking duplicating this path of government-taxed vice should we start legalizing even more poisons.

[Gregorio]

Why are you debating them with the pretense that anything can kill organized crime, Correction? Isn't the point they're trying making that it can potentially kill this market and therefore decrease organized crime, not that it will magically stop it?

Exactly, stop speaking in absolutes Correction. Arguing that gangland activity will persist exactly the same by the legalization of coke and heroin is foolish. No one is saying it will vanish, only that it will lessen. Same with prison populations, and law enforcement strain.

You want me to stop with the absolutes then stop with the handwaving and answer these questions:

How much will legal coke/heroin cost? Where does the money go? What disincentive exists for the current underground infrastructure supplying coke/heroin to the streets to not simply undercut the cost of gub'mint smack? How do you enforce such disincentive without repeating the mistakes of the existing Drug War? How does the enforcement of drug policy deal with the real possibility that it will still be possible to break drug laws profitably? How do you determine who it is legal to sell coke/heroin to? How do you write laws that protect civilians disinterested in seeing spent legal drug paraphanalia in the same piles you currently see cigarette butts being disposed in?

Answer these questions and I'll believe you have a better reason for wanting legal drugs than 'I just want to get high without hassle from the cops, man.'

And no we don't simply legalize them now and then figure all this shit out later.

How much does it cost - the market will dictate the price based on production costs, needs, and competition...just like every other product in the free market.
Where does the money go - to the people producing it, the govt will probably want a cut too. the taxes would go to wherever they see fit.
Underground undercutting legal stuff, breaking drug laws, etc. - It happens with legal products now, alcohol, electronics, etc. If people want to get crappy/dangerous stuff, let them. Decriminalizing drugs all together would end the drug war so there would be no mistakes to remake.
Who to sell to - Probably an arbritary number just like cigs and booze.
Protecting Citizens - Enforce litter laws. If it's not on public property and the owner lets them dump them there, those poor citizens will just have to deal with it.

[archibaldcrane]

I don't know jack shit about the street price of hard drugs, so I turn to the internet.

According to this: http://www.unodc.org/pdf/WDR_2004/Chap5_coca.pdf (first info I found) - it costs between $80-$100 per gram of 56%-pure cocaine in the U.S. in 2004. A gram is the weight of a fucking paper clip. It's nothing. If you think that the U.S., even with regulation and high taxation can't beat that by 75% or better...(the weight of a paper clip...) well, I don't know what to say.

Most of the "black market" (I don't consider buying on an indian reservation to be black market, honestly - it's just a legal tax loophole that wouldn't be there for coke or heroin) in cigarettes is to avoid tax, not because cigarettes can be manufactured and imported cheaper.

Look, if your primary opposition to preventing drug legalization is that you don't think we can solve many of the drug war problems because we can't out-market the illegal importers...fine. Your speculation is as good (well, no it's not but you're entitled to your opinion) as mine. But you know damn well that there would at least be measurable improvements across the board as far as the "drug war problems" go.

There are no great solutions, coke and heroin will always be around. It's just doing the best with what we have, and I don't think the last 25 years of the drug war is the best solution.

[Melchiah]

Do not forget that controlled production would have certain purity/safety standards to be met. No one with any sense at all is going to buy coke/herion/E from the shady motherfucker two streets over when they can go to the store and buy something with a label on it that tells them what they are consuming. People don't do drugs because breaking the law is cool. People do drugs because they like certain drugs. They aren't going to keep going to the unauthorized dealer just for the "thrill" of breaking the law. Some of you have some really ignorant misconceptions(my nice way of saying you dont know wtf you are talking about) and I propose that those of you who are arguing the thrill of lawbreaking have never been within 20 yards of an illegal substance and are just spouting whatever nonsense you heard on CNN.

Also I completely agree with Archibald on the price issue. Underground production is cut at every change of hands to increase profits. Controlled, legal production would be a set purity, at a much lower price than the street dealers. Furthermore, I think this would completely ruin the market for street dealers. They wouldn't be able to compete with product quality or price. You aren't going to sell an inferior product at a higher price very long.

[Gregorio]

I'm not sure if anyone brought this up yet, but the reason why coke and heroin are so expensive has a lot to do with getting into into the country and the risks that involves. If it was able to be legally produced and sold here in the states, the cost would be driven down dramatically. So anyone looking to undercut the price of the legal stuff would be hard pressed to do that if they're still getting it from another country. And even if they were getting it somehow else, it wouldn't be nearly as profitable.

[Correction]

I'm not sure if anyone brought this up yet, but the reason why coke and heroin are so expensive has a lot to do with getting into into the country and the risks that involves. If it was able to be legally produced and sold here in the states, the cost would be driven down dramatically. So anyone looking to undercut the price of the legal stuff would be hard pressed to do that if they're still getting it from another country. And even if they were getting it somehow else, it wouldn't be nearly as profitable.

Did you read the cigarette article I posted? Because it's an example of government-taxed goods being smuggled into the country, sold for less money and still proving profitable to the bootleggers.