June Version Update Notice (04/25/2008)

[BRP]

If SE make Fellows smarter and much more powerful than automatons, I really will question the development team's idea of balance, and what still purpose the job serves as it is. In before QQing, even though I welcome Fellow buffs with open arms.

Why would boosts to Fellows have anything do with job balance? Walk me through this one.

[Priran]

I don't think galkas fighting pose with H2H is the same as in pic. As much as I wish as a monk that SE would give us a weapon that isn't blunt type, it'd have to be completely new weapon class and I don't see that happening

Vampiric Claws

those are pretty terrible anywhere but apollyon

[Maxxthepenguin]

I don't think galkas fighting pose with H2H is the same as in pic. As much as I wish as a monk that SE would give us a weapon that isn't blunt type, it'd have to be completely new weapon class and I don't see that happening

Vampiric Claws

those are pretty terrible anywhere but apollyon

Yeah, and nothing they're going to make specifically for MNK with Piercing or Slashing property is going to be any better than destroyers anywhere. That was kind of my point.

[LD]

I'm sorry, I thought this was meant to be an enjoyable video game first and social interaction second. If you want a chat room with eye candy, watch a Michael Bay movie with mIRC in the foreground.

The point of an MMO is to play with other people yes, but it's much better when its incidental. Like strangers passing in the wilderness who find they have a common goal, not a bunch of moaning jackoffs crying for attention crammed in one spot, like some nerd puppy mill. Unscheduled interaction like this is almost totally unheard of because of the absolute necessity of having a group. Nine times out of ten, any and all events will be done with people you know or have met at least once before. When I play an MMORPG, I want to be able to play with my freinds and find people who share my POV, this doesn't mean we should have to go looking for each other just as a matter of course, and even if it did, I'm not finding any new friends, because the only reason we look for other people in this game is to make a party and gain something. There is no real social interaction as far as looking for members goes, it's business transation and no matter what you make it in your head, unless you carry a conversation with these people after the PT ends, that's all it ever will be. You use them as much as they use you to get what you all want. Unless you're actually interested in each other enough to talk about something other than your party, they may as well be a set of bots (and not even good ones, they talk about useless crap when I'm trying to do my job.) Generally, I find the average player to be about as interesting and attactive as a 5-day old ham sandwich left in the sun, so I'm glad that even though I'm forced into contact with them, I don't have to delve any further into the insipidity and simplicity that is the shallow pond of their intellect.

Lets pretend for a moment the internet is meant to emulate normal human interaction. Now that we're all done laughing, I'd like to remind you people that not everyone roams around with their friends in a pack or find random people to go to a bar with just so they don't get drunk alone (though I'm sure there are people who do.) Does this mean they're anti-social? No, it means they only like interacting with a few people, probably because they CHOSE THEM TO BE THEIR FRIENDS. I'm not part of BG, but I still like to occasionally (kek) posit my opinions here, because I'll get an interesting, or at least entertaining, reaction. Doesn't mean I necessarily would like being around most of you for more than the amount of time it takes you to finish this sentence.

This is why I occasionally miss RO. It was a good game and I could do whatever I wanted. I had a friend who got me into it, and though she was a much higher level, that didn't stop her from helping me with a few things and actually doing things together. At the same time, when I was in the middle of nowhere, I actually FELT like I was in the middle of nowhere, not a warp scroll or a 5 minute walk from safety. When I met someone and we were fighting around each other, it felt like a genually unique experience, worthy of actually greeting this person as a human being, a fellow wayfarer, not another nimrod running from point A to point B to do activity X, Y, or Z. At its core, FFXI is obviously a much better game, but the feeling of adventure and meaningful interaction has been dulled to something resembling a used eraser or dildo.

At any rate, my point was more than your idea of whatever the majority is could use broader insight, especially due to the practical needs of people more than the emotional ones. 'Course, the point of THIS post was the point out that the idea of interaction to most of you seems to be seeing a PC that isn't you, and if that's social interaction, I'm sure you think you're friends with the hundreds of people you walk by every day.

[Priran]

I don't think galkas fighting pose with H2H is the same as in pic. As much as I wish as a monk that SE would give us a weapon that isn't blunt type, it'd have to be completely new weapon class and I don't see that happening

Vampiric Claws

those are pretty terrible anywhere but apollyon

Yeah, and nothing they're going to make specifically for MNK with Piercing or Slashing property is going to be any better than destroyers anywhere. That was kind of my point.

I can dream

[ronin sparthos]

Maybe Kama will be D&D style for MNK: Weapons that use your Martial Arts traits but have their own effects

HA

Sorry that I'm a few pages late, but no one seemed to discuss this at all. SE has been trying to add a way for MNKs to deal more DMG/hit (so that they becoe more useful on HNMs and such) by offering ideas like a JA that would give kicks more often, and harder, bla bla bla. Does anyone else think it reasonable to postulate that the assumed NIN galka could really be a MNK, and the kama weapons are a Hand-to-Hand weapon that add more delay but a much higher dmg rating?
From the wiki:

The kama has also been used in Chinese martial arts from which the original Okinawan martial art Te(hand) and later Karate(empty hand) styles were influenced by and arguably developed out of.

Seems like it might have relevance to all of the SE-led talk about helping MNK actually have uses on HNMs...

Gonna say its probably a NIN weapon due to the stance that the Galka is in - doesnt look like the monk stance.

On top of the fact that NIN hasnt really gotten anything in ages in terms of new weaponry. Probably a subclass of katana incoming, much like amoods/hexaguns/sainti/jambiya did for ToAU.

[Yutuyu]

This game is built around parties, removing the emphasis on them and making it a "toss up" would completely demolish the way FFXI currently works. Why?

1) There simply wouldn't be enough mobs to go around. Currently there is a very limited amount of viable XP mobs around certain level ranges. Toss soloers into the mix and no one will be able to make decent progress during one of the many "choke points" on the way to 75.

2) Nearly everyone would insist on soloing while seeking, making wait times on putting parties together even more irritating; only further increasing the viability soloing over partying.

3) More noobs. Quite a few players learn how to play by example or from discussion when they start to party. If you could solo to 75, why would you need to learn about the role of other jobs in group situations? Would Red Mages learn how to juggle refresh cycles? And when these casual players hit 75 and are met with sudden emphasis on group dynamics in most endgame events, do you really think they're going to continue playing?

4) It'd kill the economy even further, as more mobs would have to die (due to the fact that party XP isn't even split) and XPing would generate more items which would decrease in value (crystals, KSNM/BCNM loot, et cetera).



Lets be honest. This is a partying game. As long as soloing enhancements remain "low impact" I have no trouble with them, but the moment they start infringing on the viability of grouping, they cross the line.

[LD]

.............Number one, Campaign already exist, so those arguments are inherently flawed.

Number two, nothing in this game is set in stone, not only can more mobs be created or repops shortened, but new areas can be made. Also, do you really know much much of this game is just never used? I don't think you do.

Your last two points are just grasping at straws. There is no reason why this game can't be more solo friendly while keeping PT play superior, you just want to defend your argument. Its done in most games, so why can't it be done here? It can, that's why. Also, you didn't even mention how I said your so-called social interaction doesn't even really exist.


Maybe this game shouldn't work the way it does. Maybe it could actually improve? Though it wont with ignorant twats like yourself, so why don't you go back to your wordless conversations in your merit and leave these discussions to people of vision.

[BRP]

Any and all weapons in FFXI besides firearms can fall under Martial Arts. Maybe not Axes, but then again, they aren't blunt here.

[Tarage]

Is it too much to ask for another - cost item for SMNs? I still dream of the day I can achieve free Fenrir. Right now... with the best gear he still costs 2...

[Yutuyu]

.............Number one, Campaign already exist, so those arguments are inherently flawed.

I wasn't refering to campaign so much as the changes to the game people were calling for to make the game more solo-XP friendly.

Number two, nothing in this game is set in stone, not only can more mobs be created or repops shortened, but new areas can be made. Also, do you really know much much of this game is just never used? I don't think you do.

Repops can't always be shortened without making the areas much more difficult to traverse for parties (or even for soloers) at non-peak times. It also increases lag. Even with adding new areas, do you want them to focus on actual content addition, or adding ways to XP jobs? I think XP is one of the few areas they don't need to improve on, and I'd see them focusing massively on retooling Xp as a large waste of development time.

Your last two points are just grasping at straws. There is no reason why this game can't be more solo friendly, you just want to defend your argument. Also, you didn't even mention how I said your so-called social interaction doesn't even really exist.

I'll give you that the economy argument isn't very good, but people learning to play from others certainly is true. You've failed to present any counter-point to it at all and I think that's probably my strongest point. XPing to 75 prepares you to deal with other people in endgame settings and teaches you about the mechanics of not only your job, but other people's.

And what do you mean social interaction doesn't really exist? Maybe not for you, but some of us still talk in XP parties, make friends with people they meet during them, et cetera; and I certainly find enough people to blacklist at lower levels.

[LD]

You've failed to present any counter-point to it at all and I think that's probably my strongest point. XPing to 75 prepares you to deal with other people in endgame settings and teaches you about the mechanics of not only your job, but other people's.

That isn't a strong point, you deluded moron. People get to 75 all the time without learning a God Damned thing. But what does whatever I say matter?

EAT YOUR DELICIOUS !

[Yutuyu]

You've failed to present any counter-point to it at all and I think that's probably my strongest point. XPing to 75 prepares you to deal with other people in endgame settings and teaches you about the mechanics of not only your job, but other people's.

That isn't a strong point, you deluded moron. People get to 75 all the time without learning a God Damned thing. But what does whatever I say matter?

EAT YOUR DELICIOUS !

Maybe I'll slow this down some so that you can understand it. Boil it down to simple logic. I am saying that the process of partying tends to educate people as to how to play and what to expect of other jobs while even learning to do their own in a group setting.

You are saying that some people getting to 75 without learning anything is evidence that this is not true.

By your logic, the fact that some people get through high school classes without learning anything is proof that they don't teach anything in those?

(Edited for clarity)

[terranova]

..Campaign is'nt a good substitute for endgame(sorry but it sounds like people are saying it is..). Mobs don't drop anything, and it's just easy xp/merits.

[orson]

Yututu you're assuming that when we say solo we mean solo exp by killing regular mobs. That isn't the only way to do things. Quests can be added that simply are 100% walk back and forth from this area kill this monster or pick up this ??? or talk to this npc, walk back get a memoirs, etc. Campaign already has this but it's on an unrealistic scale who wants to spend 15 mins to get 230 exp?

As for your fear of people seeking while soloing don't you even think for a second that if exp was less painful AKA you could actually set-up your character get it ready for a party and run around completing little quests there would be more people willing to sit there seeking? Example: I log on I have 2-3 hrs to play I can A. sit in my mog house on my level 30 tank seeking party because there's only 3 people in my level range or B. I can hop on my level 75 Thf and go farm to pay for my ridiculously overpriced salvage body on my 75 mage. Making it more desirable for people to seek and stay geared on the jobs they want to level instead of making it basically a waste of time trying to solo/seek it may even increase the amount of players seeking.

As for making more newbs who gives a shit, you have your friends and these players will eventually learn or you can teach them how to do things in a group properly. I hate that argument it's ridiculous, I've met people who have leveled 3 jobs to 75 play like shit having been in a hundred parties doesn't automatically make you a good player. Also endgame group dynamics are completely different from parties.

[Luke]

Just have been waiting since WotG's release for something to do together as a LS that isn't repeating the same old content that's been repeated into the ground already.

Yeah people aren't really capped out on Salvage gear, and I'll admit I was never into it hardcore (after being sucked into kings for so long). It's just a time vs reward issue for me, yeah I could go try for full morrigan's but really... why? I saw the main salv group in my LS go 1/50+ on machas slops and that just isn't worth the time to me, lol. A MNK I know sits at 4/5 usukane because he lost lot on Gote 1, passed Gote 2, and Gote 3 just doesn't drop. It's to the point where he doesn't bother trying anymore because it's just a waste of time.

You either have to devote an insane amount of time or you need to be insanely lucky to make "progress" in FFXI, and that "progress" is usually just a marginal stat boost at best.

Where's the new content similar to assaults, limbus, things where you make tangible progress each time you meet, culminating in a larger goal like spawning omega or buying assault items?

WotG? Campaign is the only option. Congrats you can grind without seeking so you can repeat the old content all over again for your new jobs.

[ronin sparthos]

As for making more newbs who gives a shit, you have your friends and these players will eventually learn or you can teach them how to do things in a group properly. I hate that argument it's ridiculous, I've met people who have leveled 3 jobs to 75 play like shit having been in a hundred parties doesn't automatically make you a good player. Also endgame group dynamics are completely different from parties.

Ideally, being in more EXP parties should make you skilled at your job - since you have more exposure to fundamental party-play aspects that reflect in almost *every* endgame event not to mention understanding concepts and slang terminology used in parties. I think people downplay the skills learned in a standard EXP party a bit too much, maybe in a TPburn these concepts arent as prevalent but in a typical balanced party setup you learn every basic concept you need for every major endgame event just by levelling 1-75. Most endgame events take the basic EXP party dynamic and add a small twist, few things go way off the beaten path.

Via parties you hopefully learn: enmity control, enmity management, how to deal with agression, basic skillchaining and magic bursting, timed nuking, how to lot items, communication skills, an idea how fellow jobs work, concepts on staging monsters in rapid sucession, (crowd-control) mp management, how to die 'safely', how to build a party, how to build a party appropriate for a situtation... the list goes on.

Parties are supposed to be where all this stuff is ironed out, by 75 you should have a fulfilling understanding of the game that will take you into BCNMs, Missions, Quests and Endgame without a hitch.

[LD]

Maybe I'll slow this down some so that you can understand it. Boil it down to simple logic. I am saying that the process of partying tends to educate people as to how to play and what to expect of other jobs while even learning to do their own in a group setting.

You are saying that some people getting to 75 without learning anything is evidence that this is not true.

By your logic, the fact that some people get through high school classes without learning anything is proof that they don't teach anything in those?

(Edited for clarity)

Being given the lesson and learning it are two different things. I did Not say there was nothing to learn, I'm saying people simply don't learn. It's a weak point Yuyu, anyone around here could easily tell you that. Further, there's no reason a person couldn't learn their job just as well by themselves. Even if they're not working by a PT system, they're still learning something. You don't necessarily play in HNM and merit exactly the same way, and you don't HNM your entire play time, do you? Hell, it's possible they'll learn how to play their job better without 5 other people to fall back on. Alone, you have to sharpen yourself so you don't fuck up, I'm sure BSTs understand the concept. I know from experience people are sickeningly lazy when it comes to self-improvement. I have been shouted at and ultimately left or was kicked from countless parties for telling the fuckheads around me how to do their job correctly (e.g. don't over nuke, voke asap and often, putting double up in the same macro is not a good idea), and I wasn't necessarily being nasty about it. Even if you wont accept that solo can be as or more edifying than PT, the fact of the matter is people only learn as much as they ALLOW themselves to.

This is true for everything and everyone. People underachieving, ignoring facts so they can feel better about themselves. Useless wastes of life clogging up the machine of progress. There is only truth and will, logic and instinct, the very basis of humanity. If you do not seek these you are not Human! PIG IN MAN'S FLESH, GO AND BE SLAUGHTERED! The Keystone will be fortified with your bones.


For the record, I am absolutely suggesting something be changed to allow better NORMAL solo exp (i.e. not campaign or quests). Fixing the def and VIT fomulas to make EMs and low Ts more managable would do the trick. Still lower than PTs, change would make PTs faster, possibly lower dependance on healers, and thus refreshers. You think I don't know the repercussions? You don't understand...it's what I want.

[orson]

As for making more newbs who gives a shit, you have your friends and these players will eventually learn or you can teach them how to do things in a group properly. I hate that argument it's ridiculous, I've met people who have leveled 3 jobs to 75 play like shit having been in a hundred parties doesn't automatically make you a good player. Also endgame group dynamics are completely different from parties.

Ideally, being in more EXP parties should make you skilled at your job - since you have more exposure to fundamental party-play aspects that reflect in almost *every* endgame event not to mention understanding concepts and slang terminology used in parties. I think people downplay the skills learned in a standard EXP party a bit too much, maybe in a TPburn these concepts arent as prevalent but in a typical balanced party setup you learn every basic concept you need for every major endgame event just by levelling 1-75. Most endgame events take the basic EXP party dynamic and add a small twist, few things go way off the beaten path.

Via parties you hopefully learn: enmity control, enmity management, how to deal with agression, basic skillchaining and magic bursting, timed nuking, how to lot items, communication skills, an idea how fellow jobs work, concepts on staging monsters in rapid sucession, (crowd-control) mp management, how to die 'safely', how to build a party, how to build a party appropriate for a situtation... the list goes on.

Parties are supposed to be where all this stuff is ironed out, by 75 you should have a fulfilling understanding of the game that will take you into BCNMs, Missions, Quests and Endgame without a hitch.

You must exp in parties I don't get because it boils to 90% of the time when I party there is 5 other people who aren't retarded and already have a basic understanding of how the game works or they've been playing for 2+ yrs and still don't get it (and recently the odd retard RMT.) There's barely any new players out there. So who are we trying to teach these things? Also what about the new player that plays Blm or any other job that may not be able to get a regular exp invite what's going to impact them more staying or quitting? I'm positive new players a more likely to get turned off of a game because they can't exp when they want it.

In the ideal world exp parties would work like you say they do but in reality we know that's not true. Exp parties are mostly brainless affairs that some people do well in and some people don't it simply boils down to the effort the player is willing to put in. Whether they put that effort in 1-20, 30-60, 61-74, or 75 is up to them you can exp all the way up to 75 being a completely useless tit. I learned way more about playing the game through reading, research, forums, LSs, etc. then I ever did in parties. So I find it hard to swallow that so many people sit there and pretend that exping is such a massive learning aid.

[Charismatic]

Well, orson...
The subscriber base has been around 500k for a long while according to SE.

I hear of people quitting all the damn time.
There's got to be some way that these numbers are staying stable. I'd say there are probably plenty of new people.

I rarely ever play though (and when I do I'm usually only on for a couple of hours), so I never see them.