June Version Update Notice (04/25/2008)

[ronin sparthos]

Lol, i never realized that so many people hated the idea of partying 10-50 so much, if it wasnt the same old Dunes/Qufim/Jungle/Citadel routine. Or is it just hatred towards merit parties generally.

Am i the only one that would find EXPing slightly more enticing if people would at least shake up the monotony of EXP as a whole by having choices between the awesomeness of ToAU exp and a more enticing WoTG exp?

Heaven forbid WotG surpassed ToAU in making low level-high level exp 'fun'.

[Maxxthepenguin]

WotG has some awesome exp pts 22-48ish.

[ronin sparthos]

WotG has some awesome exp pts 22-48ish.

Yeah, but how many people have even given those a chance because all that matters is the magic 75 where you immediately turn into something beyond awesome. Ask someone LFP to make a party in WotG and half the times you get 'i dont have WotG', can we please go to the grindpits of garliage instead.

[Maxxthepenguin]

WotG has some awesome exp pts 22-48ish.

Yeah, but how many people have even given those a chance because all that matters is the magic 75 where you immediately turn into something beyond awesome. Ask someone LFP to make a party in WotG and half the times you get 'i dont have WotG', can we please go to the grindpits of garliage instead.

Well that's a community failure

[Damane]

Show me an EXP party that can get away without having refresh, and I will cede to the idea that party play is superior.

sublimination and healing via TP (aka DNC) is your answer.

SCH + any mage
or DNC + a healing class
= no MP issues if you are smart.

EDIT: and yes I agree there should be an alternativ way to exp from 1-60 (60 is imho best lvl to start campaign and get some decent exp there) solo. I would like to lvl my nin or mnk out of lvl 40something, but I just dont want to go seek again for hours, without being able to do something. I would be happy with 2-3ks per hour.

and no people learn shit nowadays in exp pts, because its:
1. usually only tp burn
2. no blm involved
3. SC wut?
4. debuff wut? plvl ftw
5. ToAU range needs no brain anyway. I mean what do colibris and puks do anyway.

you had a learning curve in zilart and CoP. Anyone remember weapons at lvl 68 in ro'maeve? you pritty much wanted a stunner there to stun "whirl of rage" or a whm that could flash "whirl of rage". Remember the gobys in bibiki bay? no shell and no barfira and you could be pritty much fucked. God forbid kuftal tunnel at lvl 71 with tigers cockatrices and wyverns, silena, paralyna, erase, stona, that was whm work.
but that doesnt matter anyway, because you learn everything towards the end doing events and stuff nowadays.

[ronin sparthos]

WotG has some awesome exp pts 22-48ish.

Yeah, but how many people have even given those a chance because all that matters is the magic 75 where you immediately turn into something beyond awesome. Ask someone LFP to make a party in WotG and half the times you get 'i dont have WotG', can we please go to the grindpits of garliage instead.

Well that's a community failure

Community needs some more stiumulation through exp bonuses, since thats what gives everyone a hardon and would sell copies of WotG >.>;

[Talint]

SCH + any mage
or DNC + a healing class
= no MP issues if you are smart.

Except you're faced with the original problem, namely inviting people with the need to fulfill certain roles for a party that works.

I have no problem with party play. Hell, I don't even have a problem with party play with 6 people; I had five other friends willing to play FFXI. But party structure is still, after four years, shockingly rigid. Even if you excuse 1-20 and 70+, You're still left with 50 levels that require parties that fulfill roles that don't break a two-level gap.

For me, it was never about forced party play. It's forced party play with a penalty on EXP for inefficiency. I don't know. Maybe I'm not hardcore enough to appreciate such a design.

[Maxxthepenguin]

[quote=ronin sparthos]

WotG has some awesome exp pts 22-48ish.

Yeah, but how many people have even given those a chance because all that matters is the magic 75 where you immediately turn into something beyond awesome. Ask someone LFP to make a party in WotG and half the times you get 'i dont have WotG', can we please go to the grindpits of garliage instead.

Well that's a community failure

Community needs some more stiumulation through exp bonuses, since thats what gives everyone a hardon and would sell copies of WotG >.>;[/quote:3jpmlcmt]

Dude, if refresh, regen, meal bonuses, reduced exp loss, and very managable mobs aren't enough then fuck them. The camps are there, you have incentive. All that's left is to do it.

Also, if you are interested enough (note: you don't have to be that inventive) you can low man a lot of the stuff at T levels. A 3 man pt with sigil/signet bonus is 25% bonus, which is enough to make it all worthwhile. If you can't make it work, it's not the game's problem; it's yours or the community's.

[terranova]

Am i the only one that would find EXPing slightly more enticing if people would at least shake up the monotony of EXP as a whole by having choices between the awesomeness of ToAU exp and a more enticing WoTG exp?

Nope. I wanna exp there more. I hate ToAU exp camps.

Getting to camps, difficulty wise is no different from traversing Arrapago(sp) reef or any other place where you need sneak/invis. But hey..people are afraid of deviating too far from the norm.

[ronin sparthos]

[quote=Maxxthepenguin]

WotG has some awesome exp pts 22-48ish.

Yeah, but how many people have even given those a chance because all that matters is the magic 75 where you immediately turn into something beyond awesome. Ask someone LFP to make a party in WotG and half the times you get 'i dont have WotG', can we please go to the grindpits of garliage instead.

Well that's a community failure

Community needs some more stiumulation through exp bonuses, since thats what gives everyone a hardon and would sell copies of WotG >.>;

Dude, if refresh, regen, meal bonuses, reduced exp loss, and very managable mobs aren't enough then fuck them. The camps are there, you have incentive. All that's left is to do it.

Also, if you are inventive enough (note: you don't have to be that inventive) you can low man a lot of the stuff at T levels. A 3 man pt with sigil/signet bonus is 25% bonus, which is enough to make it all worthwhile. If you can't make it work, it's not the game's problem; it's yours or the community's.[/quote:1tosa2dz]

After the effects of sanction during the ToAU years, most people will argue that even if WoTG next update puts out new merit camps that they are all inferior fully based on the lack of candy-powered EXP bonuses. The playerbase is glutted on it and everyone knows the whining about it wont stop until SE matches or exceeds the bonus.

Lack of incentive to kill Gnoles, Peistes and the other 'super' mobs of WotG also deters people from partying in the past. Its like CoPs mission mobs without the 'super' missions to actually warrant them being there.

25% exp bonus is good stuff, but thats strictly lowman activities and doesnt carry over to a standard meleeburn/balanced setup so its like signet in zilart areas - not gonna turn heads.

Point is that im fully aware of all the bonuses of exping lowbie in the new zones but as a whole an update to actually put zilart to rest expwise and give toau a run for its money would be favorable.

Im aware its a playerbase issue, but after ToAU - what was expected?

[Yutuyu]

and no people learn shit nowadays in exp pts, because its:
1. usually only tp burn
2. no blm involved
3. SC wut?
4. debuff wut? plvl ftw
5. ToAU range needs no brain anyway. I mean what do colibris and puks do anyway.

1. Not true. PLDs are very popular before 73 or so. They are NOT in TP burns.
2. I party with BLMs all the time early on. But I agree that BLMs need to be re-integrated.
3. Yes, Skillchains also need to be re-integrated. This would be easily fixed. Skillchaining still works very well early on also.
4. People don't debuff in XP parties? What're you talking about? I guess your parties whiff away with evasion bonuses, or plink away at massive def crabs...
5. I'll agree, Colibris do need no brain. Puks require a little bit more intelligence, but I'd like to see you show me a single camp in which you can do only puks and keep chains. There's 2 Colibri camps.

XPing isn't as mindless as you make it out to be, and even if all 5 of your points are true, that doesn't negate the fact that peopel DO learn stuff during XPing. When you first start playing you don't realize how awesome refresh is until a red mage casts it on you, et cetera.

You simply can't argue that people don't learn from partying, because they do, you've learned things, and you'd realize this if you weren't such a flaming moron in favor of your solo XP ideas.

[fantasticdan]

Also Yututu quit being such a semi-charmed idiot. "I don't see a harm in certain jobs being able to solo for certain intervals." Get real, the majority of the time party exp is better but because the majority of the FFXI community is selfish those jobs don't have a choice but to solo. You don't think Sam can solo goblin pets? They do it really quite well but they get invites and party, because it's safer and faster exp.

I'm not so sure about that, it's pretty hard to beat an open golbin's pet camp exp/hr wise. Blu solo exp was like 9/10 times better than a pickup pt, even when not on pets. Yeah, it's a little slower at certain level ranges, but when you factor in the amount of time you spend seeking, putting together a pt, waiting for people to gather, etc, group exp honestly doesn't come close. Same thing for my drg (which I've mostly soloed 1-65), but it's definitely been slower by comparison. And I don't, and I'm sure many others don't solo due to lack of invites, I got tons of them solo, even when not on seek, I only stay not-anon so soloers with half a brain can see my lfg message and see what camp I'm at, and not come camp on top of me. I just solo because I find it more enjoyable, and I can do it on my own time. IE: Log in, solo for a half hour, and log out. Not to mention you get a shit ton of seals.

I'm sure it's a different story for smn/bst/pup thou, thou I have gotten invites on bst more lately, probably because of how few people there are exping new jobs in general anymore.

5. I'll agree, Colibris do need no brain. Puks require a little bit more intelligence, but I'd like to see you show me a single camp in which you can do only puks and keep chains. There's 2 Colibri camps.

I think he's talking about exp not merits. Tier 1 puks are probably the best exp mob at like 57-60 or something like that, I forget what level range exactly, but there are at least 3 camps I can think off of the top of my head where you can chain them in wajoam. They are not any harder to fight than colibri, if anything they seem to have even lower hp/eva/def.

[Yutuyu]

I think he's talking about exp not merits. Tier 1 puks are probably the best exp mob at like 57-60 or something like that, I forget what level range exactly, but there are at least 3 camps I can think off of the top of my head where you can chain them in wajoam. They are not any harder to fight than colibri, if anything they seem to have even lower hp/eva/def.

I don't think Puks are the easiest thing to XP on. Knockback move meaning you have to move, blink you have to pay attention for, avoid making SCs which cure puks, etc. etc. etc. Also if you use a spell of the corresponding element to the current day, they gain 100% tp. XPing on puks is NOT mindless.

[orson]

I'm not so sure about that, it's pretty hard to beat an open golbin's pet camp exp/hr wise. Blu solo exp was like 9/10 times better than a pickup pt, even when not on pets. Yeah, it's a little slower at certain level ranges, but when you factor in the amount of time you spend seeking, putting together a pt, waiting for people to gather, etc, group exp honestly doesn't come close. Same thing for my drg (which I've mostly soloed 1-65), but it's definitely been slower by comparison. And I don't, and I'm sure many others don't solo due to lack of invites, I got tons of them solo, even when not on seek, I only stay not-anon so soloers with half a brain can see my lfg message and see what camp I'm at, and not come camp on top of me. I just solo because I find it more enjoyable, and I can do it on my own time. IE: Log in, solo for a half hour, and log out. Not to mention you get a shit ton of seals.

I'm sure it's a different story for smn/bst/pup thou, thou I have gotten invites on bst more lately, probably because of how few people there are exping new jobs in general anymore.

I think really that depends on player gear vs quality of party. At some levels such as Pso'Xja when Blm can one shot the pet with AM then Exp sky rockets. I'm not familiar with Blu solo past 37 but really he fact the Blu can solo doesn't stop them from partying all the time. So really it obviously doesn't stop people from partying when there's the option to solo.

[LD]

Theres a difference between wanting to play WoW, and wanting to eliminate (or make less painful) the grind from 1-75. It's been said before that leveling is supposed to teach you basic game and grouping mechanics. What about the people have have 5+ 75's and already know what their doing? Half the reason WoW has so many subscribers is because you can actually log on for an hour and make some progression on your character. Since when was that a bad thing? When most of the player base is at the max level you can focus on producing more content because your no longer just giving content to the hardcore players, your giving content to everyone.

WoW is one game, FFXI is another. Your argument is basically a kin to saying that since you like running plays in football that baseball should having running plays. In fact most of the arguments for soloing basically boil down to the fact that a player does not like xping in a party, in a game based upon a party system. It doesn't really make a lot of sense. Campaign was a fantastic way for SE to add the ability to solo XP, not just Campaign battle, but the lower level quests with XP rewards.

They are never going to introduce a system that allows solo XP to overwhelm the party XP system. It is completely counterintuitive to expect them to usurp the entire basis of the game. It would be like demanding that Blizzard introduce partying for XP and making it a faster rate than solo. Comparing individual game functions between the two games fails so hard.

It's only based on a party system in the sense that normal solo is practically non-existant. The changes it would take it make the game solo friendly are minor, the only reason they haven't been made is because SE chooses not to, not because it couldn't be done or it would cause too much damage to the rest of the game. Also, most MMOs have solid solo play, So ringthree, you're very wrong about what Inactive meant. If we classify all of these games as MMOs, FFXI is lacking something that's usually common to the genre. It's as if we took out the goal posts in football, but still expected you to hit that particual point in the air. You could still play, but it's be more difficult for the kicker, wouldn't it? You can't go the 'WoW isn't FFXI' route every time someone mentions WoW in passing. Like it or not, it's the most successful MMO, so someone mentioning it as a standard shouldn't be everyone's que to break out the defensive fanboy pitchforks. If you think lacking solo play is what makes FFXI special, you might be right, but special doesn't always mean good and there are much better unique aspects of the game that really separate it from WoW et al. Solo isn't some totally foreign concept that's incongruous with FFXI, it's just a function that's inexplicably minimized. While I like Campaign, as someone said, it's only really viable for 60+ (that's when you get 100% exp/AN from your actions), so it's not really for everyone. 61-62 is the half-way point exp-wise, so that's only half your pre-merit time (though we all know, as far as exp goes, merit is all that really matters, but still.)

Also, on a personal note, it doesn't give me the middle of nowhere feeling you get in solo in other game. Although, this would probably be true even with better solo content, due to the greater distance between cities/safepoints in most other MMOs.


Whether SE actually changes something isn't the point of this conversation, it's that there's no reason they couldn't.


Yuyu, again, just because you CAN doesn't mean everyone WILL. I'm not going to guess at your play time, but in my 4 years of playing this fucking game, I've seen enough lazy players from start to finish to be sure that most people will only learn from an experience if they want to, it is not a matter of course. For example, how I haven't learned to stop giving my informed opinions to deaf mouthpieces when I could spend that time learning another language, or exercising, or washing the gimp. Why haven't I just learned to let people wallow in their ignorance? Because I'm a didactic, pompous, self-assured asshole who believes most of the people around him are a pack of children who need a firm hand to keep them in line. Its just who I am, just as some (many(most)) people get by with the bare minimum of effort, don't expect people to call them on it, and get petulant when they do.

[shihei]

in before someone mentions goblin pet solo-ing

lol I was just thinking this as I read the last 2 pages that I was putting off.

People have been viably soloing stuff on gob pets for awhile and most any job can if you gear up properly...and you will probably get better exp/hour than your average retarded party full of AFK every 10min and KO's etc.

So no, the game doesn't force you to party and you will learn stuff soloing too...


Big events on the other hand you definately need to team up with other people, and I'm not talking about Serket.

[fantasticdan]

I don't think Puks are the easiest thing to XP on. Knockback move meaning you have to move, blink you have to pay attention for, avoid making SCs which cure puks, etc. etc. etc. Also if you use a spell of the corresponding element to the current day, they gain 100% tp. XPing on puks is NOT mindless.

You can ignore all of those things on puk and still get good exp, unless you count walking back to the mob after it knocks you back a skill. Puk possibly getting one extra tp move from a dia cast on lightsday, or elegy on earthsday, doesn't really have much impact, most people don't even know about it. If anything, it only enforces the idea of not enfeebling things, it doesn't make them hard to fight regardless. WSing on their shadows doesn't make a big difference either, since you know, it takes down their shadows. Accidentally WSing during flash, again doesn't make them any harder to fight, and only serves to slow down your exp slightly if you're not paying attention. I think it was your point that this type of exp party is teaching the players something, making them better at the game? I would hope level 60-ish players already know what flash does, and that they need to walk back up to a mob to actually hit it if they're knocked back.

[Kenji]

You can't go the 'WoW isn't FFXI' route every time someone mentions WoW in passing. Like it or not, it's the most successful MMO, so someone mentioning it as a standard shouldn't be everyone's que to break out the defensive fanboy pitchforks.

Coke is the most successful soda. Therefore, 7-up should be made more like coke, and screw everyone who actually likes 7-up the way it is.

Oh, I loved WoW. How many hunters hit 70, and had the vaguest notion of what a shot rotation was? How many priests hit 70 and knew how to downrank spells to be mana-efficient? How many paladins knew how to do anything other than smack things with a big hammer?

WoW is successful because of marketing, and because it appeals to the lowest common demoninator of humanity. Any 2-bit Joe Hack can pick it up and level to 70. But 95% of them don't have a clue of how to really play their class by the time they hit 70. Someone reaching end-game in WoW, has a TON more to learn, than someone reachign end-game in FFXI. People reaching end-game in WoW, can literally survive using only 25% of their skills, never touching the other 75%.

The forced partying *does* teach people.

There will always be stupid people. I deal with them like I do in real life: make a mental note of who they are, and make it a point not to associate with them (if they're unwilling to learn). The argument of "Oh, forced partying doesn't work because idiots still reach end-game" is stupid as hell. There will always be idiots. Don't toss the baby out with the bathwater. It's just stupid.

Anyway, this argument comes up time and time again. And I've yet to see *any* counter to this argument: People who love solo play in an MMO, have tons of choices. People who love forced partying have... FFXI. You change this game by giving it a ton more solo options, and you change it to be like every other MMO. Good thing for you; bad thing for the vast majority of us who like it this way.

You don't like it, then go play EQ, RO, or WOW. We don't have anything else to play.

[Stolin]

Any 2-bit Joe Hack can pick it up and level to 70.

MMOs were designed for any "2-bit Joe hack." Anyone can be useful in an MMO as long as they can invest their entire social life into it.

Theres nothing in FFXI too challenging, and certainly nothing partying with 5 morons in full AF will teach you about end game events. Exp grinding is boring, and most people will look for anything to alleviate the stress you have from realizing you're going to have to invest 3 months of your social life with people you can't stand being around to hit the level cap. Theres too many jobs in FFXI to have such a painful exp grind.

[Yutuyu]

Any 2-bit Joe Hack can pick it up and level to 70.

MMOs were designed for any "2-bit Joe hack." Anyone can be useful in an MMO as long as they can invest their entire social life into it.

Theres nothing in FFXI too challenging, and certainly nothing partying with 5 morons in full AF will teach you about end game events. Exp grinding is boring, and most people will look for anything to alleviate the stress you have from realizing you're going to have to invest 3 months of your social life with people you can't stand being around to hit the level cap. Theres too many jobs in FFXI to have such a painful exp grind.

So investing 6 months of your social life to do it solo is much better?

Sure, you meet idiots while Xping, but you don't meet all idiots. Not everyone is a moron. Statistically speaking, there's a good chance that a couple of members every party you're in will be competent people. You never make friends with people from partying? If you're really that negative about the vast majority of people you encounter the problem just might be with you, ya think?

And if the way the game is set up is so shitty, why're you still playing? When writing that post you were neglecting your social life to bitch about the configuration of this social-life eating game... yeah good usage of your time.