June Version Update Notice (04/25/2008)

[Tsuko_Asura]

Why haven't I just learned to let people wallow in their ignorance? Because I'm a didactic, pompous, self-assured asshole who believes most of the people around him are a pack of children who need a firm hand to keep them in line. Its just who I am, just as some (many(most)) people get by with the bare minimum of effort, don't expect people to call them on it, and get petulant when they do.

One of the most beautiful things I've ever read =D>

[Damane]

1. Not true. PLDs are very popular before 73 or so. They are NOT in TP burns.
2. I party with BLMs all the time early on. But I agree that BLMs need to be re-integrated.
3. Yes, Skillchains also need to be re-integrated. This would be easily fixed. Skillchaining still works very well early on also.
4. People don't debuff in XP parties? What're you talking about? I guess your parties whiff away with evasion bonuses, or plink away at massive def crabs...
5. I'll agree, Colibris do need no brain. Puks require a little bit more intelligence, but I'd like to see you show me a single camp in which you can do only puks and keep chains. There's 2 Colibri camps.

XPing isn't as mindless as you make it out to be, and even if all 5 of your points are true, that doesn't negate the fact that peopel DO learn stuff during XPing. When you first start playing you don't realize how awesome refresh is until a red mage casts it on you, et cetera.

You simply can't argue that people don't learn from partying, because they do, you've learned things, and you'd realize this if you weren't such a flaming moron in favor of your solo XP ideas.

1. PLD is a tank. I am talking about the DDing. Its 99% of the time TP based by spamming WS in lower exp pts
2. nothing to say
3. same
4. last time I lvld a low lvl job was scholar, and believe me all the rdms/brds I had from 33-66 didnt dispel until you told them so to do, not to mention casting slow dia and paralyze... That was even until the eureca lvl. I did only encounter one rng that was rank 10 that had acid bolts with him to counter cocoon from soldier crawlers, thats it.
5. puks require no brain. Their moves are not dangerous compared to pre Toau stuff in lvl 60 range.

People learn shit compared to before. And exp is mindless grinding. If you want people to learn the shit on their job you could easily just implement some mini quests at lower lvls that reward you with decent gil (to help out the newbys), while still implementing solo play for everyone.

For example a blm quests/genkais at lvl 20 and 45:
lvl 20 quest: 2 NPC will create skillchains and will announce 10 sec before what skillchain they will use. you have to MB 5 times in row in order to complete the quest.
lvl 45 quest: an NPC mob will use randomly 4 moves. 1 particular of them needs to be stunned. if you stunned that one 5 times in row you complete the quest.

If you want learning curve you can just implement such mini-quests for each job, that is rewarding with gil/armor/weapon whatever.

[Yutuyu]

Don't get me wrong, it's not impossible to change this into a soloing game. We don't need partying to learn how to play, you're right about that.

SE could sit down and work hard to revamp the game for new players, change the soloing XP system, and modify many game-mechanics to make solo XP viable. I'm not innately against this (even though I do think it'd be drastically changing the spirit of the game in a way which I think is totally unnecessary). But it would take development resources to do so, and I don't see why people are so in favor of the XP system being altered this late in the game, when we should be looking for more things to do.

I want more events, more gear, more goals, more things to do; not SE shifting focus on changing XP to accomodate the people who don't like the way things are now.

[Max™]

Friend of mine took Bst to 75 solo, guys been in like two full parties for Exp ever, and one of those I forced him to join.

Then he and I duoed all our subjobs to 37-40 on pets (you think soloing them at low levels is easy? get two people with experience pulling them, and job combos like Thf+Mnk RAKE in the expies, no healer, leveling faster than a pled party in most cases at the two+ mob pet camps) and while I went back to meriting and working on my War, he's been leveling.

Blu/Bst to 65 Pre-WoTG/Campaign, Campaign off and on, though I know he just dinged Blu/Bst 70 recently out in the Mire.
Sam/Bst to 50 Pre-WoTG... wtf, Sam/Bst? Seriously? Seriously.
Dnc/Bst to 60, the last few levels were during the pets getting sambas period, and I imagine he shed a tear when they nerfed that promptly.
Whm/Bst to 42 or 44.
Nin/Bst to 40
Thf/Bst to 40

He knows the parties are there, I'd quite happily count on him in a party, he manages to keep my retard ass alive when we Campaign and I go War/Sam and insist on tanking everything and it's brother. He just wants to level the jobs solo, just to say he did it.

After seeing him do Sam/Bst, I don't have any pity for people who say they can't solo.

[Hyan]

After seeing him do Sam/Bst, I don't have any pity for people who say they can't solo.

Problem is that you need to have BST at 75 if you want to solo any job to 75 with /bst, so it's not as good as it seems. If you have 75 BST leveled though, you can solo with all jobs really.

[Max™]

Yeah, I did mention the 75 Bst too.

Though, these days you could just get by with 50 or 60 Bst and /Bst to those levels efficiently enough, then jump into Campaign.

Honestly I'd solopowerlevel myself (Selbina Milks, sub Mnk or War or Dnc or whatever) 1-20ish, Gob pets 20-40ish, /Bst and /Mage Campaign Tag refreshing+Exp scrolls 40-60, Campaign Campaign Campaign with /Bst to mix it up 60-75.

[LD]

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but what if you don't LIKE Beastmaster? -_-

Being the best solo job/sub job is one thing, but being the best by a wide margin is another.
Also, what's the point of leveling any job over 50 if I have no intention of playing AS that job?
Yea, I have to level two jobs to 75 just to fully enjoy the first one. Awesome. Why not uncap subjobs and give JS merits to any job at 75 while we're at it? Getting a job from 1 to 37 is one thing, it's around a sixth of the 1-75 run, but I should be able to enjoy this game while only ever really focusing on the jobs I enjoy.

Also, why should we be reduced to killing inordinately easy mobs if we want to solo? Why can't normal mobs be made nearly as easy for the same exp? If they fixed solo, how would that be any different from fighting pets? There'd be much more of them and you wouldn't have to follow around something that will definitely murder you for a mob that might link surrounding mobs of its type. EM would actually be an Even Match (after lvl 20) and instead of looking for one of 3-5 BST spawns in a zone, you could just start on the first mob you like. You'll notice BST pets sarted getting tougher since TOA (with a few exceptions), so SE may eventually completely shut it off. At any rate, BST pet leveling isn't really an argument against fixing solo, considering it could just as easily supplement it. I think I might enjoy killing a mob that's half as powerful as the last for the same exp if I were soloing.


Keikaku Doori.

[ringthree]

Don't get me wrong, it's not impossible to change this into a soloing game. We don't need partying to learn how to play, you're right about that.

SE could sit down and work hard to revamp the game for new players, change the soloing XP system, and modify many game-mechanics to make solo XP viable. I'm not innately against this (even though I do think it'd be drastically changing the spirit of the game in a way which I think is totally unnecessary). But it would take development resources to do so, and I don't see why people are so in favor of the XP system being altered this late in the game, when we should be looking for more things to do.

I want more events, more gear, more goals, more things to do; not SE shifting focus on changing XP to accomodate the people who don't like the way things are now.

You are correct. It is not impossible to change this game into a soloing game, it's just unwise to do so this late in the game.

Since we are talking about other games lets talk about Star Wars Galaxies. It underwent a radical battle system make over to make the fighting more realistic. And by doing so lost a huge amount of subscribers, not because the new system was bad or good but because it changed something that was completely fundamental to the game.

It doesn't matter if SE could make FFXI solo friendly, the fact is that attempting to alter the play dynamic at this point does nothing to increase the subscriber base, and it only risks a massive subscriber exodus. They have created great new ways to solo, within the game that they created, rewriting the battle system now, especially for a game that outside of the WoW phenomenon is doing quite well.

[Inactive]

Don't get me wrong, it's not impossible to change this into a soloing game. We don't need partying to learn how to play, you're right about that.

SE could sit down and work hard to revamp the game for new players, change the soloing XP system, and modify many game-mechanics to make solo XP viable. I'm not innately against this (even though I do think it'd be drastically changing the spirit of the game in a way which I think is totally unnecessary). But it would take development resources to do so, and I don't see why people are so in favor of the XP system being altered this late in the game, when we should be looking for more things to do.

I want more events, more gear, more goals, more things to do; not SE shifting focus on changing XP to accomodate the people who don't like the way things are now.

You are correct. It is not impossible to change this game into a soloing game, it's just unwise to do so this late in the game.

Since we are talking about other games lets talk about Star Wars Galaxies. It underwent a radical battle system make over to make the fighting more realistic. And by doing so lost a huge amount of subscribers, not because the new system was bad or good but because it changed something that was completely fundamental to the game.

It doesn't matter if SE could make FFXI solo friendly, the fact is that attempting to alter the play dynamic at this point does nothing to increase the subscriber base, and it only risks a massive subscriber exodus. They have created great new ways to solo, within the game that they created, rewriting the battle system now, especially for a game that outside of the WoW phenomenon is doing quite well.

I think FFXI has gotten to the point where its no longer about increasing the subscriber base. I REALLY don't see how making it more convenient to get to 75 would cause people to leave either. What would be so horrible about being able to solo xp (while or in place of) partying? FFXI is a party based game etc. etc., you will experience all that at 75 when it really matters, make getting there less of a hassle.

[ringthree]

Don't get me wrong, it's not impossible to change this into a soloing game. We don't need partying to learn how to play, you're right about that.

SE could sit down and work hard to revamp the game for new players, change the soloing XP system, and modify many game-mechanics to make solo XP viable. I'm not innately against this (even though I do think it'd be drastically changing the spirit of the game in a way which I think is totally unnecessary). But it would take development resources to do so, and I don't see why people are so in favor of the XP system being altered this late in the game, when we should be looking for more things to do.

I want more events, more gear, more goals, more things to do; not SE shifting focus on changing XP to accomodate the people who don't like the way things are now.

You are correct. It is not impossible to change this game into a soloing game, it's just unwise to do so this late in the game.

Since we are talking about other games lets talk about Star Wars Galaxies. It underwent a radical battle system make over to make the fighting more realistic. And by doing so lost a huge amount of subscribers, not because the new system was bad or good but because it changed something that was completely fundamental to the game.

It doesn't matter if SE could make FFXI solo friendly, the fact is that attempting to alter the play dynamic at this point does nothing to increase the subscriber base, and it only risks a massive subscriber exodus. They have created great new ways to solo, within the game that they created, rewriting the battle system now, especially for a game that outside of the WoW phenomenon is doing quite well.

I think FFXI has gotten to the point where its no longer about increasing the subscriber base. I REALLY don't see how making it more convenient to get to 75 would cause people to leave either. What would be so horrible about being able to solo xp (while or in place of) partying? FFXI is a party based game etc. etc., you will experience all that at 75 when it really matters, make getting there less of a hassle.

You are absolutely right, it is no longer about increasing the subscriber base, it's about not driving out the subscriber base in droves. Radical alterations to the play of any MMO, not just FFXI, once it has been established is playing with fire. You don't really gain anything because the people that are complaining about it and will actually quit because of something they don't like in the game are counted in your normal MMO triage, as you said it wont gain you any subscribers, and it only risks changing a system that, liked or not, is accepted but a huge portion of the player base.

What you guys are suggesting has been done, in Star Wars Galaxies, and it horribly backfired. You don't radically alter an MMO 5 years in just to satisfy a few discontents with a fundamental precept of the game.

[Max™]

Honestly, if they just adjusted something like level Correction in our favor for EM mobs, orrrr made Def/Vit matter more against them, it would just be seen as a battle system adjustment, but it would let melees pick up the signet/sigil boost and go murderize EM mobs pretty straightforwardly.

[Inactive]

I'm not asking for them to drastically change the system to the point where FFXI will lose players. Just tweaks or additions to help keep players from leaving out of frustration or boredom. Campaign already started doing this and it didn't seem to (on its own) drive players away.

[ringthree]

I'm not asking for them to drastically change the system to the point where FFXI will lose players. Just tweaks or additions to help keep players from leaving out of frustration or boredom. Campaign already started doing this and it didn't seem to (on its own) drive players away.

1. People who say they are leaving never really leave. They say they are leaving, sell everything, give everything away, give their accounts away, break their discs and are back in 6 weeks to 6 months. Adjusting the game for these people is a bad idea. They may leave because of frustration and boredom, but 90% of the time that is because they are not controlling their own frustration and boredom. They aren't getting up from the game to do something else to chill out for a while, to relax or relieve tension. They are making it into a job. The only people that really leave are those that just kind of slowly fade away and find something else to do that they enjoy more.

2. Tweaks and additions are definitely good. Signet bonuses, good. Campaign, good. Breaking the party system, bad. SE is definitely moving in the right direction. With Signet and Campaign (including Ops) you can now go from 1-75 without a 6 person party ever. This should never be more efficient than the party system though because it would break down the basis for all of the game play in FFXI. Tweaks and additions, good. Radically altering gameplay 5 years in, bad.

3. Changing the game to prevent the frustrated and bored from leaving is a bad idea. It is much better to keep adding things to fill the time between parties rather than ditching the party system. SE is doing this already. The frustrated and bored will leave and come back, ad nauseam. Catering the game to them is near insanity because they are the people that will grow frustrated and bored inevitably, and there is no keeping up. It's better to placate these people, and serve the larger group of people that are general satisfied with the game mechanics.

Ultimately the bored and frustrated have one overwhelming flaw in their logic. They believe that everyone else feels the way they do. I get bored sometimes, and I definitely get frustrated, but I am not going to quit anytime soon. Just because their are people that sympathize with the boredom or frustration does not mean that SE is going to lose a great number of players for not changing something that is fundamental to the game. The amount of new players generally balances the number of people leaving, some people may be too cloistered to notice this, but you can see it in many aspects of the game.

If their really was a precipitous decline in the membership, then radical adjustments could be justified. That is just not the case now, nor does it appear to be in the near future.

As a player I am much more concerned that the speed for which people can get to 75 is churning out mediocre to very poor players. When I was leveling to 75 the first time, everyone knew how to skillchain, equipment swap and either macro or use the spell list on a fundamental level by they time they were level 30. Now we have people that never even use equipment swaps no matter the situation, spell or weaponskill. I am not saying that we should slow down the level progression, but I would be frighten for the quality of game play if it was sped up any further let alone made easier to solo.

[Kyreth]

Let's see. What's screwing up the new 75's of today?

1) Powerleveling. The constant insistance on and broad availability of a high level healer/buffer for a PT 10 levels lower or more. This leads to teh stupids for dozens of levels, from Valkrum all the way up to the high 50's and beyond. It also results in failure to learn enmity, skillchains, magic bursts, and teamwork in general.

When parties are non-functional at 65+ and the party's solution is to bring in a 75 WHM to outside heal...on colibiri....something is deeply fucked up in the system. End it. If a mob gets hate on a target, it becomes part of the exp calculation, just as if the player had dealt damage to the monster. Scale bard songs like Corsair rolls.

2) The brain cells needed to beat a mob going down with level. Mirroring this, the exp rewards from "dumb" mobs being the highest in the game. Any mob that literally gets chained into the 100's should not be the best exp in the game (thanks to Sanction). Tougher mobs should be given exp bonuses. Easily defeated mobs (at a given level) should be given lower exp modifiers. Greater colibri? Try .8, where beastmen would "average" and wivre a higher one. Beastmen in general > "dumb" monsters like crabs and beetles that are minimal threats at higher levels.

3) Reward working together, punish it's failure. Skillchains should improve chain time and reduce physical defenses. Magic bursts chain bonuses and lowered magical defenses, and "weaker" elements get higher bonuses to damage on MB (Earth > Water > Wind ...to where Thunder gets it's roughly it's current bonuses.). Spamming WSes (or nukes) should push mobs into higher levels of defense instead.

Improving SC damage was a step forward. Whine and bitch all you like about it, but when people work together, the average IQ of the party goes up. Make it required and rewarding, and you're purging the stupid. And nobody likes fucking stupid players. Heaven help us if people have to wait a bit to unleash Weaponskill Awesome #762 because it's actually worth skillchaining Gravitation and MBing Stone III.

In before "Waah, making people SC and MB doesn't mean smarter players". If it didn't, why the hell are we complaining so much about dumber 75's who sometimes don't even know WTF a skillchain is, much less a magic burst?

[Bakthi]

After seeing him do Sam/Bst, I don't have any pity for people who say they can't solo.

Problem is that you need to have BST at 75 if you want to solo any job to 75 with /bst, so it's not as good as it seems. If you have 75 BST leveled though, you can solo with all jobs really.

If you don't enjoy soloing to 75 on BST, you're sure not going to like it soloing as /BST. BST and /BST are, at this point, something to do because you enjoy it. I enjoy it, so I do it quite a bit, though not nearly as much as some!

but what if you don't LIKE Beastmaster? -_-

Then don't do it. It's just one of an increasing number of options in the game for solo exp that's nearly always inferior to party exp, as it should be. From 1-20, you can solo almost anything with minimal assistance. From level 10+, you can use Campaign Ops to net ~2450 exp on any job per week. 20+, you can quest exp scrolls, depending on what other jobs you have at what levels.* You can duo EP-DC mobs with a Healer NPC; even if you haven't touched it, it's good to level 30. Read the section of BG Wiki dealing with Campaign Battle points and select the right sub to gain some exp there; camp one zone and go do something else until you hear music. Above level 50 or 60, you can start doing Campaign Battle "for real". There's also Besieged; my lower 20s SCH/WHM can get 1k+ per level 8.

These take a while, but it's water washing away a mountain. One of my friends took THF 37-50 on exp scrolls. If you don't want to spend so much time per week in the game, you will level slowly, but you can do it. If you want to level more quickly, there's the "traditional" method that's more efficient, but requires you to set aside larger blocks of time. Personally, I wait until a few people from my LS want to set up a static. BRD is the only job in my sig (listed in the order I leveled them) that went through pickup parties.

Adjusting player-vs-EM and lower mobs, including effects of def/vit, sounds okay in theory. Maybe if enough people suggest it, they'll do it. Of course, no 6-person party will ever find a living Lesser Colibri again.

*I know this doesn't help a new person with their first 75, but that's going to be a slow enough process anyway, punctuated with Genkai, missions, chocobo, AF-while-not-75, lots of gil-making, etc.

Being the best solo job/sub job is one thing, but being the best by a wide margin is another.
Also, what's the point of leveling any job over 50 if I have no intention of playing AS that job?
Yea, I have to level two jobs to 75 just to fully enjoy the first one. Awesome.

BST is not the best solo job; that crown has belonged to BLM and BLU for quite some time. /BST is just one option. If you don't like BST, don't use /BST. If you don't like any of the options above, and can't stand pickup parties, and have no way to form a static...what are you doing leveling? >.> Surely there's something else more exciting to do.

[Crysius]

I can't believe people still complain about exp'ing. Where were you 2 years ago before the modifications to exp. The reduced experience needed to hit 75? The reduced maximum experience lost when you died? the intruduction of TP burn camps?
Lower levels will always be slower to exp with, and it makes sense. Your character doesn't have all of it's abilities, spells available as of yet. Hey guys, I have a great idea to speed up exp for lower levels. lets give everyone a base HP of 1000 starting at lvl 1, and mobs can't hit you for more then 10. OK gogo now solo IT's up to 75 in a few weeks.
Sorry that i'm a bit touchy on the subject, however FF has always been an exp grind, even in the single player games. Why should we ask for it to be simplified now?

[Talint]

Why should we ask for it to be simplified now?

Because it still sucks.

Just because it was worse back then, doesn't it intrinsically make it great now because it's changed.

[SeraphusRagnarok]

Because it still sucks.

Just because it was worse back then, doesn't it intrinsically make it great now because it's changed.

Oh but it is intrinisically better. You see back in 2003/2004 where the end game players would merit on Deco weapons in sky, the average exp/hour was 4-6k, depending on how many BLMs you had. It was always a DRK,THF,SAM,DRG,MNK making light for the BLMs to MB Thundaga III for 1600ish.

Now most jobs can solo 4-6k/hour and any merit party that doesn't make 12k+/hour is weak and girlish.

So, lower exp required to level up 50-75, coupled with high performance merit parties making double/triple the amount of EXP as they were 4 years ago. Toss in campaign ops, campaign battles, besieged,ENMs and Ballista along with signet/sanction bonuses and of course empress bands for the cherry on top and you'll see grinding in 2008 is intriniscally greater,easier and more fun than it was back then. In 2004 it would take months to get a job to 75, now, roughly three weeks.

[Talint]

In 2004 it would take months to get a job to 75, now, roughly three weeks.

If you're taking only 3 weeks to get a job to 75, I want to be in your parties.

[Crysius]

It's true. If you have the gil set aside, and the time each day, you can easily hit 75 within 3 weeks.