Is it murder?

[Khamsin]

What would I get charged with if I ran up to someone and chopped their arm off? Assuming they can't reattach it, the guy is forced to live without an arm and I just severely assaulted someone without killing them. Would it be a more serious charge than if I shot someone but they fully recovered? Or would it be the same charge, but the guy can later sue me in civil court for damages?

While abortion isn't exactly the same as losing an arm, I would make a parallel between voluntary and involuntary actions performed on people where under certain conditions it is perfectly legal and acceptable. I can have my arm removed if, for some reason, I really wanted to. There's no law against it. But someone else can't come up to me and chop it off for me without permission.

It's probably not going to be considered murder, but rather something on par with the arm example, where the woman can later sue them in civil court over the loss of her children, emotional distress, etc.

[Turambar]

What would I get charged with if I ran up to someone and chopped their arm off? Assuming they can't reattach it, the guy is forced to live without an arm and I just severely assaulted someone without killing them. Would it be a more serious charge than if I shot someone but they fully recovered? Or would it be the same charge, but the guy can later sue me in civil court for damages?

While abortion isn't exactly the same as losing an arm, I would make a parallel between voluntary and involuntary actions performed on people where under certain conditions it is perfectly legal and acceptable. I can have my arm removed if, for some reason, I really wanted to. There's no law against it. But someone else can't come up to me and chop it off for me without permission.

It's probably not going to be considered murder, but rather something on par with the arm example, where the woman can later sue them in civil court over the loss of her children, emotional distress, etc.

If you just ran up and chopped someone's arm off, you'd probably be charged with murder, since they'd probably bleed to death, unless you happened to be like right in front of a hospital. If they survived, the 5-0 would definitely have you for assault, and probably for attempted murder. Naturally, the victim could also sue you in civil court.

Also, yeah there's probably not any law saying you can't just have your arm removed when you want to. But on the other hand, you'd have to do it yourself. I doubt you could find a doctor who would do it, for fear of losing their license, and if you enlisted a friend to do it, the cops could still probably arrest them.

[Keno]

Try telling that to a right-wing pro-life person who keeps comparing it to an abortion

Except she didn't choose to abort her children. This "person" of yours is an idiot.

Sry fell asleep. But yeah thats what we kept telling him. It wasnt her choice. But he believes that Dr. Laura is the second coming of christ(just to show how right wing he is) and that this is truely no different than aborting a child. Now yeah you would say I am pro-life/ride-the-line but I also understand the difference between this and abortion because with the later there is a choice that an individuale gets to make. Our legal system that we have chosen to place in authority has said that abortion is a choice that can be legally made up to a certain point. You want that to change, vote for somebody else. Hence why I asked the question and I also have to say the minute I heard the news today I thought "Hmm this could be a good can of worms"

So abortion is OK because the mother makes the choice? So mothers are allowed to kill their own children? You can't call this murder without calling abortion murder. And if you call abortion murder then that's an entirely different subject.

I said abortion is ok because the leagal sytem that we/our parents put in place said it was ok. And yes that legal system said the mother has the choice. This is murder to me because it was never her choice.

I know its a lame comparison but:
Situation 1) You get a can of spray paint and write "Obama 08" on your cars trunk=totally legal
Situation 2) Vandel spray paints "Obama 08" on your car=very illegal

In situation 1 it was your CHOICE. Not saying its the right thing but legally you can do it.

So you're trying to say that merely because the mother chose to end the baby's life then it is not murder? The baby either IS or ISN'T alive. That doesn't change whether or not the mother wishes the fetus to continue growing. This isn't Quantum Mechanics... The baby is defined as alive or not. If it is alive it is murder, if it is not then it isn't.

And the way the US legal system defines a five month old fetus is just that: a fetus. Not a baby. Hence not murder, regardless of who squelches its shot at life.

EDIT: @ Turambar: A quick googling of the issue shows that NY is the only state with this law. Unless I'm just being googleretarded right now >.<

[Turambar]

So you're trying to say that merely because the mother chose to end the baby's life then it is not murder? The baby either IS or ISN'T alive. That doesn't change whether or not the mother wishes the fetus to continue growing. This isn't Quantum Mechanics... The baby is defined as alive or not. If it is alive it is murder, if it is not then it isn't.

That's Roe v. Wade for you. Fuckin' Democrats.

I propose a new set of rules:
No abortions for consensual sex. It's not like it's a big secret that fucking = babies. If you don't want to get pregnant, exercise some goddamn self control and a bit of common sense.

[Keno]

So you're trying to say that merely because the mother chose to end the baby's life then it is not murder? The baby either IS or ISN'T alive. That doesn't change whether or not the mother wishes the fetus to continue growing. This isn't Quantum Mechanics... The baby is defined as alive or not. If it is alive it is murder, if it is not then it isn't.

That's Roe v. Wade for you. Fuckin' Democrats.

I propose a new set of rules:
No abortions for consensual sex. It's not like it's a big secret that fucking = babies. If you don't want to get pregnant, exercise some goddamn self control and a bit of common sense.

I think you missed my point entirely...

[BIGSTIC]

[quote=Keno]

Try telling that to a right-wing pro-life person who keeps comparing it to an abortion

Except she didn't choose to abort her children. This "person" of yours is an idiot.

Sry fell asleep. But yeah thats what we kept telling him. It wasnt her choice. But he believes that Dr. Laura is the second coming of christ(just to show how right wing he is) and that this is truely no different than aborting a child. Now yeah you would say I am pro-life/ride-the-line but I also understand the difference between this and abortion because with the later there is a choice that an individuale gets to make. Our legal system that we have chosen to place in authority has said that abortion is a choice that can be legally made up to a certain point. You want that to change, vote for somebody else. Hence why I asked the question and I also have to say the minute I heard the news today I thought "Hmm this could be a good can of worms"

So abortion is OK because the mother makes the choice? So mothers are allowed to kill their own children? You can't call this murder without calling abortion murder. And if you call abortion murder then that's an entirely different subject.

I said abortion is ok because the leagal sytem that we/our parents put in place said it was ok. And yes that legal system said the mother has the choice. This is murder to me because it was never her choice.

I know its a lame comparison but:
Situation 1) You get a can of spray paint and write "Obama 08" on your cars trunk=totally legal
Situation 2) Vandel spray paints "Obama 08" on your car=very illegal

In situation 1 it was your CHOICE. Not saying its the right thing but legally you can do it.

So you're trying to say that merely because the mother chose to end the baby's life then it is not murder? The baby either IS or ISN'T alive. That doesn't change whether or not the mother wishes the fetus to continue growing. This isn't Quantum Mechanics... The baby is defined as alive or not. If it is alive it is murder, if it is not then it isn't.[/quote:1ef7ym1p]

I said abortion is ok because the leagal sytem that we/our parents put in place said it was ok. And yes that legal system said the mother has the choice.

Hell if we voted in a president who then got some Supreme Court Justices into place and changed the law to say abortion is murder then it would be a different story but as it stands right now I stand by my above statement. I dont advocate abortion but I am not gonna tell some lady she commited murder by having an abortion. The laws are pretty clear on weather the baby is or isnt alive and well if you want laws to change then vote.

[Quicklet]

Yeah that turned out to be not true if you didn't know.

Um... what do you mean by not true?

[Keno]

@BIGSTIC: But just so we're clear, abortion IS legal. Meaning that it is NOT murder to terminate the fetus at that stage of a pregnancy, meaning that this man did not commit murder. At worst, as someone pointed out earlier, it would be first or second degree abortion (if that law exists in the state of the crime). In NY it is a class E felony. I haven't heard of the law elsewhere, but let's go with that.

@Quicklet: That turned out to be a hoax. The girl didn't actually have abortions for her art piece, she just used menstrual blood and such.

[Charla]

the laws of 34 states also recognize the human fetus as the legal victim of homicide (and often, other violent crimes) during the entire period of pre-natal development (24 states) or during part of the pre-natal period (10 states).

Just in case anyone still wanted to talk about the law instead of opening a can of pringles.

[Quicklet]

@Quicklet: That turned out to be a hoax. The girl didn't actually have abortions for her art piece, she just used menstrual blood and such.

Wasn't sure if you meant the entire story was fabricated.

In any case, whether or not it's a hoax or to what extent (which is still somewhat debatable due to conflicting statements) is moot. Claiming to have done what she did is just as bad as the real thing, or at the very least it proves the point that people with that attitude exist.

[BIGSTIC]

@BIGSTIC: But just so we're clear, abortion IS legal. Meaning that it is NOT murder to terminate the fetus at that stage of a pregnancy, meaning that this man did not commit murder. At worst, as someone pointed out earlier, it would be first or second degree abortion (if that law exists in the state of the crime). In NY it is a class E felony. I haven't heard of the law elsewhere, but let's go with that.

I guess I dont see how you can compare this to abortion though. The mom never had the choice. Just like you can chose to slit your wrist and end your life but if you get shot buy a stranger it is murder. I can see him getting off since the babys died due to complications and not actually getting a bullet in their brians but I still say this should be murder and in a different catagory from abortion.

[Quicklet]

By the way, depending on your state, it IS legally murder for someone to terminate the fetuses of a woman. In fact, the woman desired it to happen in this instance. Also, it's somewhat ambiguous to go from the legality of something to the actual definition of something, as in, you can hypothetically commit a murder even if you can't be legally charged for it.

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/n ... lores.html

[Tricen]

So you guys would rather a baby grow up in an environment that would probably be piss poor given that the mother wanted to abort for various reasons? Is there no mercy?

[Demosthenes11]

yes, your reading comprehension is unrivaled

[Blarg]

I thought there would be more No answers.

[Keno]

the laws of 34 states also recognize the human fetus as the legal victim of homicide (and often, other violent crimes) during the entire period of pre-natal development (24 states) or during part of the pre-natal period (10 states).

Just in case anyone still wanted to talk about the law instead of opening a can of pringles.

So half the states have that law. Is the state this happened in one of them?

[aurik]

Depends on what your definition of murder is. Traditionally it is defined as unlawful deliberate killing of a person, but now we have to define what qualifies as a person. And that is a debate that has been hashed out here and other places hundreds of thousands of times with no good result; I don't see the purpose in discussing it again.

[Tricen]

Depends on what your definition of murder is. Traditionally it is defined as unlawful deliberate killing of a person, but now we have to define what qualifies as a person. And that is a debate that has been hashed out here and other places hundreds of thousands of times with no good result; I don't see the purpose in discussing it again.

Was totally expecting lock after that. O_o

[aurik]

I'm going to wait for some people to get really emotionally involved first, makes it much more satisfying.

[Tricen]

I'm going to wait for some people to get really emotionally involved first, makes it much more satisfying.

I knew you got off on that.