Is it murder?

[Quicklet]

The underlying problem with trying to have a (logic-based) argument about something like abortion is that two people can start off with different (though possibly similar) rulesets for ethical judgments, both of which require assumptions on some level (after all, you have to start somewhere), and both people can separately come to logically valid conclusions that are different from each other.

I still don't know why abortion was even mentioned in this thread, considering the example posted is rather different from the typical abortion example.

[Tricen]

The underlying problem with trying to have a (logic-based) argument about something like abortion is that two people can start off with different (though possibly similar) rulesets for ethical judgments, both of which require assumptions on some level (after all, you have to start somewhere), and both people can separately come to logically valid conclusions that are different from each other.

I still don't know why abortion was even mentioned in this thread, considering the example posted is rather different from the typical abortion example.

I introduce you to this internet we have here. Welcome to it.

[Venture]

I'll just continue to wallow in my pro-gray area that rebounds back and forth between pro-choice, pro-life, pro-Pringles and pro-Doritos as the situation warrants on a case-by-case; detailed analysis of each situation's nuances, factoring in the feelings and general douchbaggery of all parties involved, and then make a decision without having to land in one of your preset camps; because your port-a-johns need to be cleaned, you don't have air conditioners, and your catering sucks!

Pro-paper bag ftw! Ham/Cheese '08!

[Keno]

The underlying problem with trying to have a (logic-based) argument about something like abortion is that two people can start off with different (though possibly similar) rulesets for ethical judgments, both of which require assumptions on some level (after all, you have to start somewhere), and both people can separately come to logically valid conclusions that are different from each other.

I still don't know why abortion was even mentioned in this thread, considering the example posted is rather different from the typical abortion example.

I introduce you to this internet we have here. Welcome to it.

You sir, win 10 internets.

[Churchill]

Depends on the state I believe, as laws are different.

[Tricen]

I'll just continue to wallow in my pro-gray area that rebounds back and forth between pro-choice, pro-life, pro-Pringles and pro-Doritos as the situation warrants on a case-by-case; detailed analysis of each situation's nuances, factoring in the feelings and general douchbaggery of all parties involved, and then make a decision without having to land in one of your preset camps; because your port-a-johns need to be cleaned, you don't have air conditioners, and your catering sucks!

Pro-paper bag ftw! Ham/Cheese '08!

I resent that. Also, you should add more derogatory comments in there if you want people to actually read/care about it.

[miokomioko]

Killing a human infant is the equivelant of stepping on a cockroach.

[Tricen]

This is when aurik locks the thread so people just stare at the LOCKED button with anger.

[archibaldcrane]

I think it's murder. I also think abortion is murder. I define murder as being the ending of another human life without consent of he or she whose life is being ended.

I don't think that either should be punishable by law.

It should be attempted murder on the mother. End of case.

[Lordwafik]

Killing a human infant is the equivelant of stepping on a cockroach.

Please be sarcasm, please be sarcasm, please be sarcasm, please be sarcasm.

[Kiro]

Killing a human infant is the equivelant of stepping on a cockroach.

Please be sarcasm, please be sarcasm, please be sarcasm, please be sarcasm.

Playing FFXI with Mioko, I can assure you it's not. :3

MIOKO IS A SICK SICK PUPPY.

[Shuemue]

I couldn't give a fuck about what the law says regarding whether it's murder or not. Simple fact is, if you shoot my partner and kill my unborn child, I will end your life even if it's the last thing I ever do.

[Nystul]

Try telling that to a right-wing pro-life person who keeps comparing it to an abortion

Except she didn't choose to abort her children. This "person" of yours is an idiot.

Sry fell asleep. But yeah thats what we kept telling him. It wasnt her choice. But he believes that Dr. Laura is the second coming of christ(just to show how right wing he is) and that this is truely no different than aborting a child. Now yeah you would say I am pro-life/ride-the-line but I also understand the difference between this and abortion because with the later there is a choice that an individuale gets to make. Our legal system that we have chosen to place in authority has said that abortion is a choice that can be legally made up to a certain point. You want that to change, vote for somebody else. Hence why I asked the question and I also have to say the minute I heard the news today I thought "Hmm this could be a good can of worms"

So abortion is OK because the mother makes the choice? So mothers are allowed to kill their own children? You can't call this murder without calling abortion murder. And if you call abortion murder then that's an entirely different subject.

I said abortion is ok because the leagal sytem that we/our parents put in place said it was ok. And yes that legal system said the mother has the choice. This is murder to me because it was never her choice.

I know its a lame comparison but:
Situation 1) You get a can of spray paint and write "Obama 08" on your cars trunk=totally legal
Situation 2) Vandel spray paints "Obama 08" on your car=very illegal

In situation 1 it was your CHOICE. Not saying its the right thing but legally you can do it.

Sorry for page old reply-

The issue here is that you and your friend are arguing different things. He is arguing the morality of murder, you're arguing the *legality* of an action.

Personally, I'm anti-abortion...I wish it wouldn't happen. I suppose the fact that I'm adopted makes it hit closer to home for me, that I was potentially considered to go one way or the other. Perhaps I've dodged a closer bullet than most. That being said, however, I don't think it's wise to apply an ideal philosophy to the reality of life. I understand that they will happen anyway, and further I don't believe it is the place of the government to legislate something like this. I think we get lazy and think that simply making a law will suffice to alter social norms when it's neither right nor productive to do so. I think it should be legal, and I think those who are against it morally- which I would hope is *everyone* should maintain its legality but work to take steps to see that it happens infrequently as possible (safe sex, education, adoption incentives, etc).

[Nystul]

Killing a human infant is the equivelant of stepping on a cockroach.

This is, quite simply, not true in any capacity at all whatsoever.

This is an image showing the first five weeks of human development:
http://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/ww...ges/Cst800.jpg

The last stage, stage 23, is still in the first trimester (first trimester is 12 weeks or 84 days, this is day 60). Eyes, ears, CNS, fingers, toes, genitals, heart, etc are all fairly well formed. I hear again and again that "oh it's just a ball of cells" that somehow people think it's just an unshaped mass until the third trimester where it suddently takes shape. Most structures are fully formed during the first trimester.

I'm not trying to make a morality play on this really. I just always get the feeling that people let their lack of understanding drive their indifference. I always wonder what people would think if they knew it wasn't just some blob of goo going into the 7th month.

[Tyche]

Killing a human infant is the equivelant of stepping on a cockroach.

Please be sarcasm, please be sarcasm, please be sarcasm, please be sarcasm.

It has to be

I'm the "bible beating pro-lifer" so you can imagine what I chose on the poll.

[Feedmenow]

Anyways, while I'd argue that a person should have a right to their own body in an abortion argument, this doesn't fit the bill here. The robber shot the woman (attempted murder and assault at the least) and she was 5 months pregnant (past legal abortion period for that state, most likely). An abortion at that time would still violate Roe V. Wade, so it should count as murder.

Here's to hoping the robber gets the shit beaten out of him when he goes to jail.

[Shuemue]

Nystul: I posted a 5 month old foetus on page 1, it looks totally human, your post beautifully reinforces it.

[Not Kuno]

I'm against abortion, but for killing babies.

[Tajin]

I couldn't give a fuck about what the law says regarding whether it's murder or not. Simple fact is, if you shoot my partner and kill my unborn child, I will end your life even if it's the last thing I ever do.

I could not agree more with this.

[Norelco]

Why can't there be an "I don't care" option :<. It's a big can of worms and ethical debates. We all now where it leads.

The "I don't care" option is not posting or voting in this thread.