Jailer of Love help!

[Obev]

Having only one tank on Jailer Of Love doesn't seem like the best idea to me. No matter how much defense you're packing, there's always a chance that Love will just decide to Phuabo-rape you with Astral Flow. Not a problem if you've got a second tank, but a problem of Xbox-like proportions if the only guy tanking the thing just ate triple Aerial Collision to the face and went down like a bag of rocks.

[ringthree]

Your tanks were too close. Move them out to at least 14.5~15 and you will be fine. It will just use Boost like normal.

[fishstix]

I'm pretty sure people weren't stealing hate from the plds, although I can't say for certainty without being there and using /assist on JoL. Just because something attacks you or uses a TP move, doesn't mean you stole hate from the tank. Good example is a mob that is bound, pounding on anyone who's close. Just make sure the tanks have a good distance from JoL to not be drawn in, and make sure each tank is far enough away from the other. If the 2nd part isn't what's causing this problem, at least you'd avoid both tanks from eating the same -ga spell.

[ringthree]

I'm pretty sure people weren't stealing hate from the plds, although I can't say for certainty without being there and using /assist on JoL. Just because something attacks you or uses a TP move, doesn't mean you stole hate from the tank. Good example is a mob that is bound, pounding on anyone who's close. Just make sure the tanks have a good distance from JoL to not be drawn in, and make sure each tank is far enough away from the other. If the 2nd part isn't what's causing this problem, at least you'd avoid both tanks from eating the same -ga spell.

If your tanks are at a certain point it wont use TP moves at them, but if it has another target it will use the TP move. We had the same thing happen this weekend. If Love uses a TP move as soon as someone hits it then you know your tanks are still too close. Keep moving them out until it just uses Boost, and they are fine. 15 is just about the perfect distance.

I have seen it suggested several times to keep your tanks far away from each other, but I actually don't suggest this. We use three tanks, because we are still on our first couple of Loves and one of those is almost inevitably going to die to Astral Flow, and just because we prefer a bit of safety over speed. Grouping the tanks together helps to dissipate damage from -ga spells a little, but more importantly it lets people sub THF for much higher damage, because it always is facing the same direction. A good PLD/RDM or even PLD/NIN should really have no problem keeping hate over even an army of melee. The only job that tends to pull hate is MNK/DRK or a Chi-blasting MNK.

[Ardrial]

It wasn't melee's over damaging because a single thf came into the fight with no prior hate on JoL and hit for 0 damage and caused hate to go insane.

This just doesn't make sense unless the thief used accomplice before, the whole story isnt there and we cant see the logs so I'm just going to choose to believe that a thief entering a fight for the first time won't take hate from plds with 1 swing. Could be wrong, but that would be good as maybe we'd learn something new.

I think your problem is you need a co-tank, how come you only use 1 tank...

I haven't left anything out unless I just forgot it but Glabian seriously showed up at like 50% and then swung once for 0 and then JoL started using TP moves until he backed off and the tank got hate back.

We only had one tank on JoL because we lack tanks that can tank JoL. We had another pld in the fight that only came in when the main tank died but he had no huge MDB and was only pld/nin.

Having only one tank on Jailer Of Love doesn't seem like the best idea to me. No matter how much defense you're packing, there's always a chance that Love will just decide to Phuabo-rape you with Astral Flow. Not a problem if you've got a second tank, but a problem of Xbox-like proportions if the only guy tanking the thing just ate triple Aerial Collision to the face and went down like a bag of rocks.

The Melee's pulled the sharks as soon as they popped and the tank got hit by a shark like once or twice maybe the entire fight. However, you are right....we really need another tank but we had canceled JoL 3 times prior and we really wanted to get this done since we had enough people. So we went with one tank.

Your tanks were too close. Move them out to at least 14.5~15 and you will be fine. It will just use Boost like normal.

I'll let Dev know this and see how it goes.

[Kaeko]

It's impossible to prevent the tank from stripping hate in any situation a DD can do enough damage to cap CE+VE. Once you cap, the mob is going to look at you regardless - all a tank can do is get it back as quickly as possibly recapping themselves.

You need to just double check how much damage the PLD was taking. I know it won't be 0s so you have to take that into account when worrying about hate. Even with this, from my experience, it's quite easy for DD to cap VE since it has so much HP... I can promise you your melee will cap CE quite quickly - at this point they will pull hate anytime they cap VE, which can be quite annoying.

[Devinry]

Wow, a whole thread about me. >.> Instead of making a massive quote-fest, I'll answer what I can remember here.

My spell cycle is Flash > Bind > Sleep > Dispel > Blind. I was doing a lot of self curing after spells to keep high hate levels. I was also curing anyone I could possibly find with missing HP (like when the BRD got unlucky and came close to me to ballad and ate spell damage). I would also Sentinel whenever it was up to effectively double the enmity generated by all spells cast during the duration. I highly highly doubt that my hate was the problem.

I do have a MDef/MDamageDown set, which caps me at -50% with Shell V. I do not have an Aegis.

I'm not a perfect tank, but I definitely don't suck. When we finally adjusted strategy and went with BLMs as damage on JoL (i.e. damage from adequate range, no melees under the hood), I never lost hate for a second against something like 8 constantly free-nuking BLMs. My hate was solid.

My positioning was just outside the edge of JoL's "hood". Unfortunately, I honestly did not even think to check the true windower distance, so that is what I'm leaning towards as the root of the problem. I must have just been a touch too close. As fishstix mentioned, it's probably something similar to a bound mob hitting anyone in range. Somehow by being a step or two too close to JoL, that might have "activated" that kind of behavior? Who knows. Next time, I will make sure to stand 14.5-15 away at all times.

Did I miss anything?

[Obev]

I do have a MDef/MDamageDown set, which caps me at -50% with Shell V. I do not have an Aegis.

As far as I remember, Magic Defense doesn't cap. Magic Damage Taken caps at 50%. So once you've capped Magic Damage Taken (with that lance, merman rings, askar feet & resentment cape, or Aegis alone), you can pile on Magic Defense and continue to reduce the damage taken.

[shirak]

Still missing a co-tank, 8 melee dd, and the concept of hatecap on a 35min-1hour fight.

[Devinry]

I do have a MDef/MDamageDown set, which caps me at -50% with Shell V. I do not have an Aegis.

As far as I remember, Magic Defense doesn't cap. Magic Damage Taken caps at 50%. So once you've capped Magic Damage Taken (with that lance, merman rings, askar feet & resentment cape, or Aegis alone), you can pile on Magic Defense and continue to reduce the damage taken.

That is what I meant. My magic damage taken is capped at -50%, the Mdef I put on beyond that is just for a little extra reduction.

Still missing a co-tank, 8 melee dd, and the concept of hatecap on a 35min-1hour fight.

Not really the point of the thread (trying to figure out why hate was going nuts under unusual circumstances), but thanks.

[shirak]

How is melee capped enmity not tied into a melee pulling hate?

A co-tank setup is also more efficient in holding and keeping hate and more certain of holding the hate-cap.

These concepts are plain as day and well discussed already.

If you're not understanding this then the problem is probably you not addressing these concerns which apply especially to jol and consequently why you experienced problems.

ie. Get a cotank, it will help on JoL and any fight...

[Robert]

I dunno, I've always solo tanked it, before and after Aegis, I equip +Shield when Ru'phuabos are about to beat down my block, in the event of Collision x3 and the most I've taken from all three is about 400 damage total, usually block down to 0 (Phalanx). Has anyone bothered capping or trying to cap Stoneskin on PLD for /RDM? I never really thought about it until I noticed Enhancing Torque/Wbody and other misc. RDM items in my safe, although I'm already strapped for space on PLD as is. Anyone familiar? :3 /derail

[shirak]

Tekki had a post awhile back about trying to cap stoneskin on pld, to the point where he was wondering if static earring (+2 mnd) was worth it over ethereal. I don't know the conclusion to that discussion though but I take from it that its pretty tough to cap as pld.

[ringthree]

This discussion has gotten far off base. I can almost guarantee it was a positioning problem and not a hate problem.

[Midge]

I'd like to see that post if anyone has a link to it.

Working on my SS build for PLD/RDM atm; there's not alot of options around (that I can find anyway) for PLD as far as +skill is concerned.

[Obev]

I'd like to see that post if anyone has a link to it.

Working on my SS build for PLD/RDM atm; there's not alot of options around (that I can find anyway) for PLD as far as +skill is concerned.

You can reach 235 with AF legs +1, Torque, Earring and Cape. With this you need 102 MND to cap Stoneskin, and you have 21 damage reduction from Stoneskin. With a few bits like AF head +1, Wyrmal Body, AF2 feet and a couple of MND rings, it's not that hard to cap Stoneskin as Elvaan PLD/RDM; I don't think you need more than +30~35 MND.

Edited for numbers.

[Devinry]

This discussion has gotten far off base. I can almost guarantee it was a positioning problem and not a hate problem.

I agree.

[aurik]

It's impossible to prevent the tank from stripping hate in any situation a DD can do enough damage to cap CE+VE. Once you cap, the mob is going to look at you regardless - all a tank can do is get it back as quickly as possibly recapping themselves.

You need to just double check how much damage the PLD was taking. I know it won't be 0s so you have to take that into account when worrying about hate. Even with this, from my experience, it's quite easy for DD to cap VE since it has so much HP... I can promise you your melee will cap CE quite quickly - at this point they will pull hate anytime they cap VE, which can be quite annoying.

Takes under 5 minutes for a juiced melee to cap on JoL.

The interesting phenomenon is what happens when a melee takes hate on JoL. Love usually has enough TP to use a move instantly, but since it is instantly within melee range and isn't in attack-cooldown, the first thing it does is attack. The damage dealt by this attack (300-1000+ if boosted) is virtually guaranteed to dissipate enough hate that it instantly turns back to the tank without using a close-range TP move.

However, if Love misses, gets parried, takes a shadow, gets countered, or if it isn't boosted and gets guarded, it may retain enough hate on the melee to use a weaponskill.

[Robert]

Yeah I've noticed that as well, when JOL takes a swing on one of our melees (boosted) for 1k~ it usually turns right back to me and I heal them to full <_<

[Obev]

However, if Love misses, gets parried, takes a shadow, gets countered, or if it isn't boosted and gets guarded, it may retain enough hate on the melee to use a weaponskill.

I bloody hate when idiot melees put shadows, counterstance or third eye up at Jailer of Love. Way to MPK your alliance, moron.