[Poll] What do you think about dynamis ?

[tymora]

SE's drop rule:
1. The AF2 no one needs will always drop the most.
2. The drop you always wanted always drops in someone else's run. (And no one wants it there)

My superstition:
The number generator is seeded using some fella's name or a group of names, so the same people always get the same crap drops.

[A-Chaos]

After a bad experience in a past dyna shell so long ago, I stopped doing it.

But during those years I did, gotta say, all drop rates cept currencies need to be bumped up, up, up! (Or just have a ??? for BST relic, keep it out of the drop pool since it always eats a spot for more useful AF, no offense to BSTs )

seriously. 1 SMN AF drop every 10 weeks ain't cool when you has a line of SMN for bastok XD.

[Midnightjade]

Is it just me, or are BST items also overrepresented in Limbus? We seem to get a lot of those items dropping in both Temenos and Apollyon.

[Demosthenes11]

We have really good luck in xarc I would say...
Only shortage I really have noticed is blm hats, and even that just might be attributed to there being more blms than anything else. rdm is almost freeloted to 60s, pld went to a 66 pld last run, everyone has smn, thf was going to people that want for storage...
But would like a lot more blm

[Spider-Dan]

I'd vote for "Dynamis sucks, and sponsorship is thinly veiled stealing" if it were on the list.

Fortunately, I was able to get into a Dynamis LS that does not allow sponsorship; glass costs are split among all attending members, all singles are autodrop, and 100s are sold and used to defray half of the cost of the glass. This is the only thing that makes city runs even remotely tolerable.

I don't know how sponsorship ever became an accepted practice, but it's a scam (especially during the inflation days).

[aurik]

I'd vote for "Dynamis sucks, and sponsorship is thinly veiled stealing" if it were on the list.

Fortunately, I was able to get into a Dynamis LS that does not allow sponsorship; glass costs are split among all attending members, all singles are autodrop, and 100s are sold and used to defray half of the cost of the glass. This is the only thing that makes city runs even remotely tolerable.

I don't know how sponsorship ever became an accepted practice, but it's a scam (especially during the inflation days).

scam
n : a fraudulent business scheme
v : deprive of by deceit


I can tell from your post that you haven't seriously tried to organize and execute a raid with 30+ people.

[#686578]

I'd vote for "Dynamis sucks, and sponsorship is thinly veiled stealing" if it were on the list.

Fortunately, I was able to get into a Dynamis LS that does not allow sponsorship; glass costs are split among all attending members, all singles are autodrop, and 100s are sold and used to defray half of the cost of the glass. This is the only thing that makes city runs even remotely tolerable.

I don't know how sponsorship ever became an accepted practice, but it's a scam (especially during the inflation days).

I dont know what kind of economy you're living in, but dynamis LS that allows sponsorship isnt "Thinly veiled stealing" at all. Take into account people who dont attend Dynamis to actually GET items, I'm sure they dont want to put up their own money at all, and not even being guaranteed enough bills to pay for your share, not to mention having to bazaar those bills yourself and everything else that comes along with it is pretty tedious. As per economy on Bahamut you're currently taking a loss on most dynamis runs unless you're either really lucky with single drops or get a 100. I've got to say personally you're whole "Scam" bit is a thinly veiled piece of crap.

[Lordwafik]

I'd vote for "Dynamis sucks, and sponsorship is thinly veiled stealing" if it were on the list.

Fortunately, I was able to get into a Dynamis LS that does not allow sponsorship; glass costs are split among all attending members, all singles are autodrop, and 100s are sold and used to defray half of the cost of the glass. This is the only thing that makes city runs even remotely tolerable.

I don't know how sponsorship ever became an accepted practice, but it's a scam (especially during the inflation days).

It became an accepted practice when I endorsed it. Hardly a scam, you don't even know what a scam is by using that term.

Had I told people "I will be spending 1m gil for the glass, you guys get the AF, I get coins to upgrade dagger" but instead I sold the coins, yes, that would have been a scam. Had I mislead people into doing an action for a purpose other than they thought, yes that would be a scam, however none of that happened.

Hardly stealing when everyone who enters agrees with the terms of entry.

[Spider-Dan]

Oh, it's a widely accepted scam, but a scam nonetheless. We can get into the whole dueling dictionaries game, or sit around and claim that if you join the LS, then that necessarily makes any pre-established rules "fair," but ultimately, it's socially accepted stealing.

Consider that the overwhelmingly common reason to sponsor Dynamis is to obtain currency for purposes of upgrading a relic. There are two possible scenarios for a potential sponsor:

1) your LS, on average, collects >=1m worth of currency from a zone
2) your LS, on average, collects <1m worth of currency from a zone

In the case of #2, you can simply not volunteer to sponsor, as you can just buy currency on the open market for less than that. So the only reason that any reasonably-intelligent person would sponsor a run (in exchange for currency) is if they believed they'd make a profit by doing so.

Of course, people typically trot out the old argument of, "well upgrading a relic helps the LS!" Setting aside the fact that under this logic, horn and shield owners should get sponsorship priority over everyone else, the plain and simple reality is that practically everyone can improve their performance when you are subsidizing them with millions of gil. Why should only prospective relic owners get to profit from the LS?

It would be one thing if currency were EX; it is not. I have no quarrel with people sponsoring runs if all they want is relic armor (or attestations/fragments), and currency is distributed separately. But currency-based sponsoring is simply recruiting/forcing your LS to farm gil for you.

Naturally, I expect people who benefit (or have benefited) from this system to defend it. After all, it would take a lot longer to get a relic if you actually had to pay market prices for your currency, right? Especially in 2005?

There are situations where currency sponsoring could be fair (e.g. a pre-determined sponsor rotation among all members) but they are needlessly complex. There is no reasonable argument against simply splitting up the costs of the glass and dividing currency among members (I won't pretend that autodrop is the best solution, but it's decent).

[#686578]

A bunch of stuff I dont necessarily agree with but cant really dispute as it's an opinion not based on anything.

So how do you feel about LS sponsoring the glass then? On person collects all currency sells for the LS bank etc etc, you know where I'm going with this one.

[Spider-Dan]

So how do you feel about LS sponsoring the glass then? On person collects all currency sells for the LS bank etc etc, you know where I'm going with this one.

In general, that is the most equitable type of solution, provided all members (not just relic weapon upgraders) benefit equally from the sale.

[aurik]

Oh, it's a widely accepted scam, but a scam nonetheless. We can get into the whole dueling dictionaries game, or sit around and claim that if you join the LS, then that necessarily makes any pre-established rules "fair," but ultimately, it's socially accepted stealing.

I really don't think you understand what a scam is.

[Charismatic]

blah blah, scam isn't the proper word for what he's trying to convey, but you know what he's trying to say.
Try to see past the word scam please.

I really don't agree with you though Spider-Dan, but I'm not going to get into that here because I don't really care one way or the other about people sponsoring Dynamis runs.

[Spider-Dan]

I really don't think you understand what a scam is.

You seem to believe that if you inform someone about the details of a scam up front, and they do not outright refuse to participate, then it ceases to be a scam. This mindset would have interesting consequences if applied to real life.

For the vast majority of people who wish to acquire relic armor, the choice is either:

1) shut up and accept the leaders' profiteering
2) form your own LS (with little to no Dynamis experience)
3) do without

Just because people go along with the scam, that doesn't legitimize it. This is apparent if you ask, "can I sponsor a run and just sell the coins?" Both cases involve exactly the same amount of profiteering; how is your profiteering to buy a relic weapon any more legitimate than my profiteering to buy other upgrades?

If someone ran a Dynamis LS and sponsored all the runs, then sold the currency and funneled the proceeds into their own pocket, everyone would rightly label it a scam.

[aurik]

I really don't think you understand what a scam is.

You seem to believe that if you inform someone about the details of a scam up front, and they do not outright refuse to participate, then it ceases to be a scam.

Actually, it does stop being a scam, because fraud or deceit is the basic requirement for something to be a scam. Otherwise it's called a "bad deal" or perhaps even "someone with a different set of priorities than you". Some people aren't in it for the money, yaknow.

This mindset would have interesting consequences if applied to real life.

Such as?

For the vast majority of people who wish to acquire relic armor, the choice is either:

1) shut up and accept the leaders' profiteering
2) form your own LS (with little to no Dynamis experience)
3) do without

So basically you're saying if you are interested in dynamis, you can...
1) participate under someone else's terms using their resources
2) participate under your own terms using your resources
3) not participate.

AMAZING DISCOVERY

[Charismatic]

I really hate arguing semantics, but in my opinion it stops being a scam if you let the people know what you're doing upfront and they agree to it.
That doesn't make things turn out any different in the end, but in my eyes it's not a scam if everyone knows what you're going to do with the currency and lets you do it.

This will hopefully be the last post I make concerning that because I really do hope this discussion moves away from the definition of the word scam.

[Lordwafik]

I really don't think you understand what a scam is.

You seem to believe that if you inform someone about the details of a scam up front, and they do not outright refuse to participate, then it ceases to be a scam.

It actually loses it's scam status because no longer are you misleading people or behaving fraudulently.

This mindset would have interesting consequences if applied to real life.

Who's mindset?

Examples of scams : You are a salesman, you sell cars, the car is a bomb, but from the outside it looks great. You fix it up so it runs for 10 miles without even a hint of it being crappy, but on mile 11 onwards the car just breaks down. You sold the car to a person who thought they'd be receiving a new car, but they were mislead into buying a bomb car and are screwed.

Example 2 (a true story) : You tell someone over the phone that they have won a Toyota, they are over the moon, you tell them to come to your house to pick it up, they go to your house, and you hand them over a Toy Yoda.

Example 3 (your example of "scam" which is completely incorrect) : You tell a group of people that you need all their help to build your house, but they won't get paid for their labour. They agree and help build your house, you build your house and don't let any of them come to your house, and they aknowledge this and don't really care - the ones who did care decided to join a company that does in fact, pay for labour. Scam? Nope.

For the vast majority of people who wish to acquire relic armor, the choice is either:

1) shut up and accept the leaders' profiteering
2) form your own LS (with little to no Dynamis experience)
3) do without

You forgot :

1) b) Find another dyna shell with rules you agree with.

Just because people go along with the scam, that doesn't legitimize it. This is apparent if you ask, "can I sponsor a run and just sell the coins?" Both cases involve exactly the same amount of profiteering; how is your profiteering to buy a relic weapon any more legitimate than my profiteering to buy other upgrades?

There is no scam, so there is nothing to legitimize, your paragraph is invalid because you are arguing towards a non existant cause.
Had there been a scam to begin with (people accepting to help get someone a relic, but instead were conned and the person decides to RMT everything) , then yes you are 100% correct, the scam remains a scam.
It all depends on the intent of the organiser if it is actually a scam or not.

If someone ran a Dynamis LS and sponsored all the runs, then sold the currency and funnelled the proceeds into their own pocket, everyone would rightly label it a scam.

Had they done it with the promise of "I will upgrade a relic" and instead bought other shiny items for all their jobs, then yes it is a scam. However your examples are not scams at all, people willingly accepting bad deals with full information in advance, and them aknowledging this information = not being scammed.

Back to your real world example, let's replace the word "Relic" with "Kidney".

If someone ran a hospital, and did a fund raiser for getting a kidney, everyone pitched in and gave their time and money with full knowledge that they're buying a kidney for someone, is that a scam? No.

However if the person decides, instead of buying this dude a kidney with all the fund raising money, it's time to visit Costa Rica, then yes, it becomes a scam.

[Spider-Dan]

You seem to believe that if you inform someone about the details of a scam up front, and they do not outright refuse to participate, then it ceases to be a scam.

Actually, it does stop being a scam, because fraud or deceit is the basic requirement for something to be a scam.

I find it somewhat amusing that you clearly understand the exact idea I am referring to (unfairly taking advantage of others for your personal profit), yet continually hide behind a dictionary and insist that "scam" is not the appropriate word, as if that somehow makes everything OK. Way to stand behind your actions.

Now I could just say that the very act of presenting currency-based sponsorship as a fair and equitable solution is in itself deceitful, or simply post a chain of word definitions (specifically: scam, fraud, trickery, artifice) that remove the pretense of deceit from the word "scam." But rather than play a meaningless game of Dictionary Battle, would you prefer that I call it a "corrupt scheme" instead? Does that somehow make it better?

Otherwise it's called a "bad deal" or perhaps even "someone with a different set of priorities than you". Some people aren't in it for the money, yaknow.

Well, it's obvious that the relic upgraders are in it for the money, so who are the people that aren't? The people that are being scammed (excuse me, "unfairly taken advantage of")? Is that supposed to be some sort of great revelation?

[quote:1rla0d9o]This mindset would have interesting consequences if applied to real life.

Such as?[/quote:1rla0d9o]
I guess in your world, pyramid schemes should be a perfectly legitimate and ethical method of making money? I mean, you tell them up front that they need to sign up two more people, and it is both technically and literally true that if their people sign up two more people (and so on) that it would create great wealth for themselves. So that can't be a scam, right?

So basically you're saying if you are interested in dynamis, you can...
1) participate under someone else's terms using their resources
2) participate under your own terms using your resources
3) not participate.

AMAZING DISCOVERY

And yet apparently, you believe that if someone agrees to join a LS, every one of their rules is implicitly and necessarily just.

Yes, we all understand that you're told the rules when you join. Just because the majority of Dynamis LSes seem to have no problem with using the majority of their members to farm gil for the privileged few, that doesn't make it equitable.

[aurik]

[quote=Spider-Dan]

You seem to believe that if you inform someone about the details of a scam up front, and they do not outright refuse to participate, then it ceases to be a scam.

Actually, it does stop being a scam, because fraud or deceit is the basic requirement for something to be a scam.

I find it somewhat amusing that you clearly understand the exact idea I am referring to (unfairly taking advantage of others for your personal profit), yet continually hide behind a dictionary and insist that "scam" is not the appropriate word, as if that somehow makes everything OK. Way to stand behind your actions.
[/quote:192gqr1f]
There's nothing unfair about it. The people who join the shell, do so of their own free will, in full knowledge of what's going to be happening with the drops. Where's the unfairness?

Now I could just say that the very act of presenting currency-based sponsorship as a fair and equitable solution is in itself deceitful,

That's like saying bazaaring roses for 99m is deceitful because it's a bad deal. And that's assuming that the people who join up even see the arrangement as a bad deal!

For people with different priorities free dynamis runs and a fair chance at AF where they have to do absolutely zero prepwork is a pretty decent opportunity. For example, when manaburn finally broke after 2 years, there were still people who were saddened that they wouldn't have Friday Night Manaburn Dynamis anymore. 2 years of weekly dynamis, and they're not tired of it! I'd say those people must have been reasonably happy with the way things were structured.

Unfortunately you're stuck in your little box and can't imagine that people see the world differently than you do. Great, don't join a sponsorship dynamis, I'm sure that sponsorship dynamis groups are happy to not have you tagging along and bitching constantly.

simply post a chain of word definitions (specifically: scam, fraud, trickery, artifice) that remove the pretense of deceit from the word "scam." But rather than play a meaningless game of Dictionary Battle, would you prefer that I call it a "corrupt scheme" instead? Does that somehow make it better?

Corrupt scheme is closer, sure, but now you have to tell me why it's corrupt.

[quote:192gqr1f]Otherwise it's called a "bad deal" or perhaps even "someone with a different set of priorities than you". Some people aren't in it for the money, yaknow.

Well, it's obvious that the relic upgraders are in it for the money, [/quote:192gqr1f]
Wait, relic upgraders are in it for money? Because I ended up spending oh, about 400 MILLION in addition to funding & doing the leadership thing. Not sure where the "in it for money" is coming from, lol.

Oh yea in SML we also have a Guttler, rofl. I'm sure he was in it for the money too!

[quote:192gqr1f][quote:192gqr1f]This mindset would have interesting consequences if applied to real life.

Such as?[/quote:192gqr1f]
I guess in your world, pyramid schemes should be a perfectly legitimate and ethical method of making money? I mean, you tell them up front that they need to sign up two more people, and it is both technically and literally true that if their people sign up two more people (and so on) that it would create great wealth for themselves. So that can't be a scam, right?[/quote:192gqr1f]

Except in a pyramid scheme you're typically deceiving people into believing that there is the system as a whole has a positive income, which is not true--the system as a whole has a neutral or even negative income. When you pitch to saps, you deliberately conceal the fact that the system is based on rearranging money rather than
earning it.

OTOH, Sponsorship is pretty up-front about where the currency is going and where the money from the shell is coming from. See the difference here? Deceit.

[quote:192gqr1f]So basically you're saying if you are interested in dynamis, you can...
1) participate under someone else's terms using their resources
2) participate under your own terms using your resources
3) not participate.

AMAZING DISCOVERY

And yet apparently, you believe that if someone agrees to join a LS, every one of their rules is implicitly and necessarily just.[/quote:192gqr1f]

Where did "justice" come from? Oh right, you're dragging irrelevant terms into the argument so that you have something to say, because otherwise you'd have to admit that you were dead wrong. Hello mr straw man, taking abuse again I see.


Fact of the matter is, anyone can buy an hourglass and enter dynamis. Don't like your options with current shells? Start your own. You'll soon find out just how much work it is.

[Yutuyu]

Fact of the matter is, anyone can buy an hourglass and enter dynamis. Don't like your options with current shells? Start your own. You'll soon find out just how much work it is.

Pretty much. While I agree sponsors that don't actually lead the shell get a better deal than they deserve and it isn't exactly "fair", if a leader is the one getting the currency it isn't that unfair.

Dynamis is a massive pain in the ass to lead. Organizing and selecting all of those runs, maintaining points and/or attendance records, yelling at members who slack off during Dynamis (a large portion of any shell), making unpopular decisions, punishing people who don't bring their medicines, having a higher attendance rate than normal members, etc.

Being the leader of a Dynamis LS is a ridiculous amount of work. They deserve some compensation for making the LS work for the average member who shows up and only has to worry about themself.