SCH vs WHM in Nyzul

[Valyana]

Abilities restricted = pain as a WHM/SCH, I can't imagine it being good for a full SCH.

No way to use Sublimation, so if it's up, it won't go away until death. Stuck on Dark Arts and you're pwned...

Sublimation automatically stops charging if you drop below 50% HP.

Frogs seem to have pretty high light resist, but not 100%. In Zhayolm I use Requiem to avoid regen during Chorus and it lands without too much trouble, but I normally sing Finale in full Haste and Angel Lyre and get a lot of resists. I should really remember to switch to using normal debuff gear for Finale on Zhayolm runs...

[Valena]

There sure is a freaking advantage to be able to spam Erasega more than every 10 minutes.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Cleric%27s_Drink
200 points for an erasega +1.

Yup, but it's still only one shoot more you get within a run. Well, accounting 2 Divine Veil, maybe luck out a Revitalizer which will enable a Benediction as status Cure, and another Divine Seal, the AoE status cures don't become much a problem anymore, except maybe Flayers and Chariot Floors.

One thing I dislike a lot with Benediction status removal, or the Cleric's Drink, is the necessity to go within mob aoe range to hit the whole pt usually. Scholar may have the same kind of trouble now that I think about it, having to close in to the fight to be able to hit an AoE Stoneskin or Phalanx.

[Shinta]

I've gone through over two discs to level 100 on WHM and it works well, I'm positive that SCH works well too. Having the extra versatility is nice, that's also why BLU works well there. However, it's stupid to say that Cure V is useless because it's not. Boss floors where everyone has body boost on, WHM shines with higher cures and curagas for far less enmity. In the end, after your farming you'll end up spamming floor 100 boss fights and I'd rather have a WHM for boss fights personally.

Also, Repose is really handy. Can't count how many times we've had lamps with one next to an imp. I can just sleep it and not even bother.

Also, someone else mentioned WHM not being "mp-independent," this is absolutely not true. I have 2/tic sublimation going with a noble's which slightly edges out SCH on the auto-refresh unless they want to wear a vermy and it's tied. We both have arts bonuses up but I never have to cast spells on the wrong art ever. They have the edge with stoneskin and more charges but it's not by a really huge margin like some have said. WHM is for sure capable of being mp-independent in nyzul, especially because you can buy items before hand and use aspir.

[Midnightjade]

Frogs seem to have pretty high light resist, but not 100%. In Zhayolm I use Requiem to avoid regen during Chorus and it lands without too much trouble, but I normally sing Finale in full Haste and Angel Lyre and get a lot of resists. I should really remember to switch to using normal debuff gear for Finale on Zhayolm runs...

I sing Finale on them in +CHR (+45 +food) and +Skill (Sing + Wind >500 ), and the ones in Nyzul still resist a lot. Like you say, it's not absolute, but yeah, they really don't respond well to Light-based debuffs. Dark-based ones are ok.

[Kaelia]

My static now is SAM DRK BLU WHM RDM BRD. Generally, the least amount of time we have once we hit the boss is 10 minutes, though we've had instances of up to 20 minutes. The only benefit I could possible see to going SCH over WHM would be to potentially go through the "normal" floors quicker, but considering we consistently reach boss floors with 10-15 minutes to spare (which is easily 2-3 times what we need to kill and lot, or more now that our WAR was replaced by a KC DRK), it would be a worthless "upgrade" and would only really result in gimping healing on the boss floor. (Depending on your melees, Haste would probably be better anyway, and if you are playing SCH as a healer, you probably won't be spending much MP nuking, which would be the only actual benefit.) With 2-3 mages capable of erasing and using -na spells, the ability to make them "-ga" would be kind of pointless. Having a BLU probably speeds us up quite a bit compared to other setups though. (He runs in a separate direction from the rest of us and solos mobs on "kill all" floors, etc.) I've never done a Nyzul run without one, so I don't know how well having SCH instead of a WHM would make up for a lack of a BLU. For the setup that was posted in the OP, I would definitely recommend a WHM over a SCH, hands down. (Haste for the NIN and MNK, reliable main healing, SCH's damage capabilities wouldn't be utilized much considering you would be playing main heal.)

[Sho]

SCH > WHM in my own opinion. Just for a few reasons already detailed-- SCH/RDM can overcure like a WHM can when it's needed, and spam Stoneskin-ga as well (not so much "spam" but one can maintain a decent SS-ga between cures on bosses). Haste isn't really needed, when Enspell-ga can pick up some of the slack instead (those +11-18 dmg on each hit counts up to alot of damage when 85% of the mobs are already squishy in there)

As for flayers, chariots, and espcially puddings, SCH and also back into Dark Arts for a quick burst offa SCs, and hop back into a curing role. Then again, they can Gravity-ga linked mobs and trains (namely Gear Trains) when they start to resist sleep. And then theres Paralyna-ga/Erase-ga for those Flayers, Chariots, Hydras, and Khims--spammable to some extent if needed.

Most of that can't be done by a WHM.

[Lasareth]

Speaking from experience in nyzul, SCH really can prove more useful than a WHM in a lot of situations with the configuration posted in the OP.

AOE stoneskin and phalanx are pretty nice for spec mobs/boss floors. It adds a lot of survivability when you're up against a cerb who enjoys spamming hoplon. Accession paralyna is great for chariots and ululation. Enspells can take aquarius or other physically resistant mobs down twice as fast in most cases.

SCH/RDM has 100% access to dispel and WHM/SCH needs to expend a strategem to access it. If you need it in a pinch as a WHM main with the strategem restrictions of /SCH then you may be at a disadvantage.


Restriction floors happen so rarely that they're not worth building a pt around.

Not being able to access -na spells because of strategem recharge is a sign that you're playing with a SCH who can't plan well, not a design flaw in the setup.


My SP for the longest time was BRD RDM DD DD DD DD, we got through over 150 floors with a RDM main healer just fine. If you play things smart, you will rarely encounter a situation where a rdm and brd can't heal your pt sufficiently quickly enough. Keeping that in mind, SCH heals better than a RDM so you really shouldn't have many healing problems with a SCH+BRD. We've also done lv.100 boss floors repeatedly WHM+SCH with no BRD, and haven't often had issues with reaching the boss with ample time. Whether that's a testament to the benefit of trading off an offensive bonus for SCH's versatility or not (as you would be doing giving up WHM's Haste for SCH) I can't say since I've never crunched numbers on it.

Did I mention sublimation is great for waking yourself up from a poorly-timed sweet breath.

(reading comprehension check for people like the poster below me: if you think my post has anything to do with proposing a rdm in the OP setup, then reread my post)

[orson]

Too many people are making this about their opinion of which job is better or worse in any given situation. Check the OP they don't have a Rdm, it's Brd and Whm or Sch + 4 melees. Both jobs have advantages and disadvantages but having 4 melee without haste is a huge loss of damage. I don't see one thing that Sch could give that would make up for that.

[Lasareth]

Too many people are making this about their opinion of which job is better or worse in any given situation.

Sorry if I'm missing something but isn't that the point of the OP's question? Any job's performance is going to be situational. One isn't going to be magically better than the other all the time or else nobody would play the other.

[Charismatic]

Too many people are making this about their opinion of which job is better or worse in any given situation.

Sorry if I'm missing something but isn't that the point of the OP's question? Any job's performance is going to be situational. One isn't going to be magically better than the other all the time or else nobody would play the other.

I think what orson is trying to say is that; 'Yes it's situational, but most of the posts here aren't addressing the OP's situation.'

That's how it seems to me anyway

[orson]

Too many people are making this about their opinion of which job is better or worse in any given situation.

Sorry if I'm missing something but isn't that the point of the OP's question? Any job's performance is going to be situational. One isn't going to be magically better than the other all the time or else nobody would play the other.

I think what orson is trying to say is that; 'Yes it's situational, but most of the posts here aren't addressing the OP's situation.'

That's how it seems to me anyway

Ya that's exactly what I was trying to say the amount of people giving examples of Rdm, Brd, insert Whm or Sch, + 3 melee is making my head spin.

[Genosync]

Too many people are making this about their opinion of which job is better or worse in any given situation.

Sorry if I'm missing something but isn't that the point of the OP's question? Any job's performance is going to be situational. One isn't going to be magically better than the other all the time or else nobody would play the other.

I think what orson is trying to say is that; 'Yes it's situational, but most of the posts here aren't addressing the OP's situation.'

That's how it seems to me anyway

Ya that's exactly what I was trying to say the amount of people giving examples of Rdm, Brd, insert Whm or Sch, + 3 melee is making my head spin.

and? not having an RDM, anywhere, is like slamming your head against the wall repeatedly. You don't move without a Red Mage, you don't function well without many properties and quick adjustment a Red Mage offers, it's fucking retarded to not have one. We've proven this in almost all FFXI situations. Which, basically, makes the situation listed in the OP as to a job list not something you'd want to bother with anyway.

If it doesn't have an RDM, it needs to go go back to LV55.

So, based on the point that 'you should always have an RDM anyway', SCH is a better choice than WHM for a second mage slot 99.9% of the time, with the situations that say otherwise being Wyrms and other high level HNMs (I'd probably even rather have a WHM for Gods, except for tuttle, for the safety) and monsters that are pretty much immune to elemental damage.

end

Did I miss anything?

[Nirokun!]

The part where they dont have, want, or need a rdm, and the part where you give a thoughtful answer to their question, whm or sch? lol

[Genosync]

The part where they dont have, want, or need a rdm, and the part where you give a thoughtful answer to their question, whm or sch? lol

I gave an answer to that. :D

[orson]

You know what Geno you're just acting completely ignorant so I'm not even going to bother arguing with you. You're basically trying to bully your way into being right because people called you on your flawed logic now again you're trying to safe face by saying the OP is an idiot for not having a Rdm. Did it ever occur to you that they don't have a Rdm? Seriously get over yourself and quit trying to be the big man on the block pretending that you need a Rdm for this.

[Valena]

The access to all the medicines, especially Strange Juice, and the +50%mp drink, made Nyzul one of the events I didn't suffer much without a refresher as a Whm. This, in addition to Sanction Refresh and Assault ring latent.

Typically, you'd want either a Brd or a Rdm as one of the support. It's probably not better, but a combination Whm + Blm for support does work too.

[Eldelphia]

We never have a RDM and with a WHM/SCH with decent enfeebling gear/merits and a BRD, so far - we've not missed one in the slightest. And in fact once my SCH gets up there, I'll be doing the comparison myself.