2H vs 1H question

[The Blackrose]

for exp alone, my drg cleans up in colibri camps while main healing or /sam usually parsing 35%+, but it seems i always gotta keep up seigan cuz nobody vokes anyways.

I gave up using Hasso a long time ago. I can already pull hate off of people just fine without it. Plus it spares me from a bitchy healer or two about being an MP sink.

And for those crying about 1H vs. 2H damage, I thought that shit died out after the re-balance (unless your name is Pathwriter, that is)?

[shaddix]

hasso is gay without outside healing. seigan onry prs

[Maxxthepenguin]

The system is perfectly balanced now. WAR/NINs and MNK/NINs have higher survivability than two-handed jobs, therefore they should have to work harder to parse equally, and a good WAR/NIN or MNK CAN parse equally to an average two-hander if they try hard enough. Personally, I find it utterly bewildering that you even think a NIN should be able to compete with two-handed melee jobs.

That's the thing that gets me, people want NIN, the current 2nd best (and entirely usable) tank to be a high damaging DD?

To quote an important philosopher: Know your role and shut your mouth.

[SeraphusRagnarok]

Not to mention 1h weapons have crazy stats! Ridill/Joyeuse/Juggernaut to name a few. I can't think of any 2h weapons that have DMG rating comparable to other weapons of it's level range that attacks multiple times or has +30 attack on it.

Grips are weak sauce right now, needs some high level crafted ones from HNM ingredients damnit!

[Maaglin]

hasso is gay without outside healing. seigan onry prs

Which has brought me to the point of why even sub SAM then? It's basically seigan/third eye and a gimped meditate vs. utsusemi ni and ichi.

Utsusemi provides for much more surviability than seigan/thrid eye hands down. I'm to the point that I'd rather just sub war on my drk at bird camp now rather than sam (or hasso onri) and nin at mamools.

[Indalecia]

Store tp and counter comes to mind

[Max™]

6 hit with 2her's "big" WSes is silly, hasso and seigan offer some versatility depending on party speed, meditate is gravy, oh, and zanshin is... there...

I can see the new HNM drop crafted grips now.

Khimaira Mane Strap
Latent Effect: Occasionally attacks 2-4 times*



*Trigger: When Khimaira's wings are up.

[Liquidedust]

hasso is gay without outside healing. seigan onry prs

Which has brought me to the point of why even sub SAM then? It's basically seigan/third eye and a gimped meditate vs. utsusemi ni and ichi.

Utsusemi provides for much more surviability than seigan/thrid eye hands down. I'm to the point that I'd rather just sub war on my drk at bird camp now rather than sam (or hasso onri) and nin at mamools.

6hit build with 2handers alone is a massive increase in tp gain (22 store tp on a Great Axe, e.g. +7 Stp from gear).

[Therin]

I can see the new HNM drop crafted grips now.

Hydra Grip (Hydra Scale x2)
Accuracy +7 Store TP +5
Additional effect: Poison
Water Resist +7
Lv. 72 All Jobs

Hades Grip (Cerberus Claw x2)
Attack +7 Enmity +2
Triple Attack +2%
Fire Resist +7
Lv. 72 All Jobs

Khimaira Grip (Khimaira Mane x2)
STR +5 DEX +5
Critical Hit Rate +3%
Lightning Resist +7
Lv. 72 All Jobs

These fit the NMs, I think. I'd have trouble deciding which to use. Khimaira would be sick for Raging Rush, Hades would be sick with Algol, Hydra would be sick for everything else, except for mobs that need to be slept.

[Lukias]

hasso is gay without outside healing. seigan onry prs

Which has brought me to the point of why even sub SAM then? It's basically seigan/third eye and a gimped meditate vs. utsusemi ni and ichi.

Utsusemi provides for much more surviability than seigan/thrid eye hands down. I'm to the point that I'd rather just sub war on my drk at bird camp now rather than sam (or hasso onri) and nin at mamools.

6hit is awesome and there's nothing worse than taking the time to cast Ni/Ichi while the other people kill three mobs.

Also with seigan, countering a ninja mamool four times in a row is pure awesomeness.

Edit: Wouldn't that hydra grip just open so much more possibilities for sam?

[orson]

hasso is gay without outside healing. seigan onry prs

Which has brought me to the point of why even sub SAM then? It's basically seigan/third eye and a gimped meditate vs. utsusemi ni and ichi.

Utsusemi provides for much more surviability than seigan/thrid eye hands down. I'm to the point that I'd rather just sub war on my drk at bird camp now rather than sam (or hasso onri) and nin at mamools.

6hit is awesome and there's nothing worse than taking the time to cast Ni/Ichi while the other people kill three mobs.

Also with seigan, countering a ninja mamool four times in a row is pure awesomeness.

Edit: Wouldn't that hydra grip just open so much more possibilities for sam?

Meditate is nothing to bitch about either.

[Maaglin]

6-hit/meditate is nice. It takes about the same amount of time to cast Ni as it does seigan/te.

However, I'm not sure how /war would parse compared to /sam at birds as I've never tried it. I guess it would come down to increase in DA vs. store tp (6hit)/lolzanshin and berserk/warcry vs hasso (assuming we're going hasso onri to compare with /war lack of dmg mitigation). Meditate is the only clear cut advantage I see between the two.

[Therin]

Edit: Wouldn't that hydra grip just open so much more possibilities for sam?

If you're talking about 5-hit, I don't think it'd be doable without using stupid shit like Attila's Earring or Chivalrous Chain. If you're talking about 6-hit, well, yeah, it would free up other areas but a SAM can already 6-hit with Store TP merits, Rajas, and Usukane feet, and even with this grip, I don't think they'd give up any of those three items.

The real point of it would be to enable DRGs, DRKs and WARs not to have to use Askar and get a real 6-hit setup, not including WSes.

[orson]

Eating Carbo+1 or Arra(Ya it's rare but damn good) is worth it imo. Most times when meriting 20+ or so att that you'd get from Hedgehog pie and Red Curry isn't going to be a big impact but missing 2 hits on Raging Rush though makes you a 7 hit which could impact your damage a fair a bit even if it's rare.

[RKenshin]

6-hit/meditate is nice. It takes about the same amount of time to cast Ni as it does seigan/te.

<1 sec delay vs ~2.5s delay makes a big difference over the course of a PT.

In a high haste situation, that's basically a full swing you lose for every Ni you cast. Nevermind that if you're really using /NIN to its full damage reduction potential on a heavy DD, then you'll have to cast Ichi occasionally (which costs multiple swings). If you're not, why sub NIN in the first place when in the end, using only Ni vs using /SAM and Third Eye+Seigan is about the same amount of damage taken?

However, I'm not sure how /war would parse compared to /sam at birds as I've never tried it. I guess it would come down to increase in DA vs. store tp (6hit)/lolzanshin and berserk/warcry vs hasso (assuming we're going hasso onri to compare with /war lack of dmg mitigation). Meditate is the only clear cut advantage I see between the two.

/SAM wins in any situation where you're at high amounts of haste, and if you maintain a 6-hit. Especially if you already have high attack.

I'm actually rather certain my SAM/DRG out-damages my SAM/WAR in many situations, if that speaks at all to my point.

[Ahlah]

Err glad I am not the only one who actually realise the advantage of 6 hit build over /NIN.

I have done a lot of merit party as both melee and mage. NIN sub used to be the standard melee subjob but it's no longer needed. A standard party of NIN, 2h meleex3, BRD, RDM require very little healing as long as melee are smart and know when to use WS/seigan + 3rd eye. Many TAU merit mobs uses nasty TP moves that either strip or completely ignore shadows.

Compared to 1h, 2h weapons get extra 20+ acc (Acc:Dex) + 10 acc (Hasso), + 6acc (weaponskill rank difference) = > 36 acc, not to mention attack/haste/TP bonus from using SAM sub. Prior to TAU release, NIN and WAR/NIN are top DD jobs only because of dual wield and multihit weapon, whereas mobs these days die so fast there isn't enough time for them to land enough hits to deal significant DOT. 1h weapon is lacking behind in every aspect and still suffers horrible acc problem which was initially designed to counter the benefits of dual wield and multihit weapons.

I think SE introduced 2h weapon adjustment as part of their strategy to keep players busy in this game - WAR are forced to redo their merits, players who love melee jobs start leveling SAM and DRG etc. It's basically the same concept behind RNG nerf only this time they chose to upgrade jobs instead of nerfing NIN, WAR and MNK, probably because they have learned their lesson and do not want another headache.

[FailureMidgard]

Edit: Wouldn't that hydra grip just open so much more possibilities for sam?

If you're talking about 5-hit, I don't think it'd be doable without using stupid shit like Attila's Earring or Chivalrous Chain. If you're talking about 6-hit, well, yeah, it would free up other areas but a SAM can already 6-hit with Store TP merits, Rajas, and Usukane feet, and even with this grip, I don't think they'd give up any of those three items.

The real point of it would be to enable DRGs, DRKs and WARs not to have to use Askar and get a real 6-hit setup, not including WSes.

25 base
10 merit
5 rajas
7 usukane feet
6 usukane body (5 w/ askar)
6 carbonara
1 brutal
puts you at 60 (59 with askar)
74 is needed for a 5hit build with a Hagun. If you're willing to drop 8 more on Hachiman Kote, that puts you at 67-68, easily in range of the 5hit build with that strap.

I haven't done the math exactly, but if it's anything like a 6hit vs haste, the 5hit would be worth the loss of haste on gloves. Not sure if it would be worth giving up full Usu haste bonus for. I assume it would be. You could make up some of the haste elsewhere (helm/legs) for TPing if you wanted to end up with similar haste in a 5hit build. A storetp strap like that would increase Samurai damage by quite a bit, I'd think. And yes, there is 1 "stupid" item and a not too cheap food in there, but it would be a pretty huge damage increase overall.

[Max™]

That grip would let Bravura wars keep 6 hit I think, for sure with Askar body.

Ace's helm, Usu body, Hachi hands (+1 em so it looks better ), Rajas, Ecphoria
Forager's, Speed, haidate, usu feet, hagun, that Store TP grip+Carbo.

Wouldn't be too far off the gear you would use anyways, just tossing in the hachi with the usu body/feet, 17% Haste, lots of Acc, Carb is a decent food, but I'd love to see a 5 hit/4 after WS sam do stuff dirty.

Toss a Samurai roll at him, with my weedeater Whirling/Dervish fort axe machine... that would be hilarious.

Dueling Pyschopaths.

[Amastacia]

The system is perfectly balanced now. WAR/NINs and MNK/NINs have higher survivability than two-handed jobs, therefore they should have to work harder to parse equally, and a good WAR/NIN or MNK CAN parse equally to an average two-hander if they try hard enough. Personally, I find it utterly bewildering that you even think a NIN should be able to compete with two-handed melee jobs.

That's the thing that gets me, people want NIN, the current 2nd best (and entirely usable) tank to be a high damaging DD?

To quote an important philosopher: Know your role and shut your mouth.

See, this attitude just pisses me off.

RDM got a super buff in like 2003 because it was 2nd best at everything. As a result no one wanted it. NIN's kinda getting that way, at least in my experience.

I wish I were kidding when I said my first thought upon being asked to come NIN to anything is "are they fucking with me?". Doesn't stop me from quietly hoping every time or being disappointed when the expected answer to the old "what job?" question comes. RDM is useful. NIN is not (at least not if you have 2+ decent PLDs with good attendance, and any 2h DDs with anything other than AF).

I don't want NIN to be an overpowered DD, but I want the time, effort, and gil I've sunk into DD gear to be reflected. There is NO reason some Domaru-wearing SAM with no merits and 2 brain cells to rub together should be in the same ballpark as my NIN. There is NO reason a DRK/SAM wearing AF should be competitive in the slightest. Right now, they are. I still win, but if the same time, effort, and gil went into that DRK or SAM, I might as well be a melee RDM in comparison.

As far as tanking goes, it's gotten to the point where NIN seems to be the tank you use when a PLD isn't available. Sure, a NIN is just as good at generating hate as a PLD, but requires more support, much more investment in gear, and still lags behind in damage mitigation (especially magic, which is the main tank-killer these days anyway).

If I played this game exclusively to solo or small-group things, maybe I'd be thinking differently, but I don't.

Usable but not preferred gets real old real fast when preferred is available, and you made the mistake of leveling as your first job one of those jobs that everyone wants to have but few people want to play. Especially when you made the bigger mistakes of getting good at it and being willing to play it for the good of the group.

[Ahlah]

When 8th Vanadiel Census came out I was surprised there are more completed Kikoku than all relic sycthe and G katana put together, then I suddenly realised a lot of ppl upgraded Kikoku because NIN used to be one of the top DD jobs in this game.

Just feel bad for those who put in so much effort to obtain Kikoku and Ridill. I guess the game is "balanced" now as NIN at least still get party invite and WAR has the option of using G axe. Who care if THF, BST, BLU can still keep up with 2h melee, they don't get invited to TP burn party anyway.