Monk's roll and MNK and NIN

[BerenTebogo]

Accepted cap for subtle blow is 50% I think we can all agree that this is generally accepted.

Now from wiki:
Subtle Blow V

* Obtained: Ninja Level 75 - 25%

Subtle Blow IV

* Obtained: Monk Level 65 - 20%

Now in the case of NIN (my NIN, and yours too, hopefully, since T1 merits suck) 5/5 SB merits, 30% + rajas 35% + usukane gote 40%

In the case of MNK - Rajas 25% + Usukane Gote 30% Black Belt 35% (feel free to add to this % if you as a MNK tank in more SB than this)

For Monk's Roll we have on an 11 +47 with a MNK to SB and +35 on a lucky 3? I guess, I don't know much about COR, but those are the numbers from wiki. Unlucky roll is still +12 to SB with a MNK - which would take me to 52% (cap 50%, barring metsu being amazing, can I borrow a BST anyone? <_<) and MNK to 47% maybe 51% depending on various gears.

So even on unluckiest roll MNK and NIN for all intents and purposes are capped on SB, by accepted value, but with MNK delay and TP given to the mob, likewise with NIN, it seems that the difference between 35% and 47% and likewise 40% and 52% would be a difference of 1, maybe 2 TP given to the mob per swing?

I'm not good with the math, that's why I'm asking for help, but from the numbers that looks fairly correct, so in essence you're sacrificing an ATT roll, a DA roll, a crit roll, or ACC roll, or even a paeon roll for 1, maybe 2 less TP given per swing to a chariot in what is usually a time-intensive situation.

My question for you is: If you tank salvage with MNKs or NINs (for WARs I'll concede MNK roll is probably helpful) is it time to revisit the usefulness of MNK roll to your group and to your kill time overall? Any help on the exact #'s would be amazing (looking at you Kirschy, Ruke, Aurik) but I think if we evaluate more Damage over Time from other rolls vs duration of chariot fight with each roll, and the small effect of the roll, I think it /should/ come out that the slightly longer fight time with monk roll will result in just as many TP moves as without.

Edit: Forgot Black belt

[Genosync]

Accepted cap for subtle blow is 50% I think we can all agree that this is generally accepted.

Now from wiki:
Subtle Blow V

* Obtained: Ninja Level 75 - 25%

Subtle Blow IV

* Obtained: Monk Level 65 - 20%

Now in the case of NIN (my NIN, and yours too, hopefully, since T1 merits suck) 5/5 SB merits, 30% + rajas 35% + usukane gote 40%

In the case of MNK - Rajas 25% + Usukane Gote 30% Black Belt 35% (feel free to add to this % if you as a MNK tank in more SB than this)

For Monk's Roll we have on an 11 +47 with a MNK to SB and +35 on a lucky 3? I guess, I don't know much about COR, but those are the numbers from wiki. Unlucky roll is still +12 to SB with a MNK - which would take me to 52% (cap 50%, barring metsu being amazing, can I borrow a BST anyone? <_<) and MNK to 47% maybe 51% depending on various gears.

So even on unluckiest roll MNK and NIN for all intents and purposes are capped on SB, by accepted value, but with MNK delay and TP given to the mob, likewise with NIN, it seems that the difference between 35% and 47% and likewise 40% and 52% would be a difference of 1, maybe 2 TP given to the mob per swing?

I'm not good with the math, that's why I'm asking for help, but from the numbers that looks fairly correct, so in essence you're sacrificing an ATT roll, a DA roll, a crit roll, or ACC roll, or even a paeon roll for 1, maybe 2 less TP given per swing to a chariot in what is usually a time-intensive situation.

My question for you is: If you tank salvage with MNKs or NINs (for WARs I'll concede MNK roll is probably helpful) is it time to revisit the usefulness of MNK roll to your group and to your kill time overall? Any help on the exact #'s would be amazing (looking at you Kirschy, Ruke, Aurik) but I think if we evaluate more Damage over Time from other rolls vs duration of chariot fight with each roll, and the small effect of the roll, I think it /should/ come out that the slightly longer fight time with monk roll will result in just as many TP moves as without.

Edit: Forgot Black belt

It's good to toss in for other melee, but that's hard to do without having an extra monk in the spare PT.

You're better off doing Chaos and ... I really don't know where I'd go with the other roll. Depends on the ability of the monks. I'd probably be more likely to go with a Crit roll myself, because DA kinda doesn't do much for Asuran (if you're hitting all hits anyway). Regen if you really need it that bad.

[Yutuyu]

Assuming that the Ninja is getting 5 TP/hit (which is fairly common with most Katana setups, or was the last time I was leveling Ninja) then the mob is getting 8 TP/hit.

The difference between any two values is going to be...
[Base TP + 3]*(1-SubtleBlow1%) - [Base TP + 3]*(1-SubtleBlow2%) or
[Base TP + 3]*(1-SubtleBlow1% - 1 - SubtleBlow2%) or
[Base TP + 3]*(SubtleBlow1% - SubtleBlow2%)

So if we take SubtleBlow1% - SubtleBlow2% to be 12% then with a Base TP of 5...
[5+3]*(.12) = 8*.12 = .96, not even a whole TP of difference on one attack, but when you look at a full attack round that's ~2 TP. Every 50 attack rounds for the NIN, the mob gets an extra TP move in.

Infact if you stack the dice in the favor of those who have no subtle blow enhancement at all other than the trait, they're gaining at most 25% SB as a Ninja from the roll.

[5+3]*(.25) = 2 TP. Out of a full attack round that's 4 TP. Every 25 attack rounds for the NIN, the mob gets an extra TP move in.

Then again it's mainly a question of what you'd use in lieu of it, I think. While you could use DA roll in its place, that's going to cause faster TP feeding by a lot (extra attack rounds and no subtle blow to slow it down), but Samurai Roll might be more useful since there's no upper cap on Store TP and it still gives you the basic effect desired by the Subtle Blow enhancemore, a nicer balance between TP gained and TP fed.

[Sechs]

My question for you is: If you tank salvage with MNKs or NINs (for WARs I'll concede MNK roll is probably helpful) is it time to revisit the usefulness of MNK roll to your group and to your kill time overall?

That's what I've been tryin' to say to all our past runs where we've been having a COR on bosses, nobody even dared to listen to me.
I'd be glad to read some math to see if my suggestion was indeed useful or not.
I tank with this setup:

Weap: Hades Sainti (I usually like its bonuses more than Destroyer's pure damage)
Rang: Bibiki Seashell
Head: Walahra Turban
Body: Kirin's Osode
Hands: Melee Gloves
Legs: Byakko's Haidate
Feet: Usukane Sune-Ate
Belt: Black Belt
Neck: Faith Torque
Back: Forager's Mantle
Rings: Uthalham's + Rajas
Earrings: Brutal + Ethereal

So that should be like +6 Subtle Blow over the setup you suggested. Also, you forgot Penance out of the equation. Supposing you have 2 monks with it merited, you're gonna have Sutble Blow +25 for the whole alliance for 2 minutes over 3. So that's like 66% of the time.
With this setup, wouldn't it be smarter to use other rolls? Like Hunter? Chaos? Fighters? Anything other than Monk's roll actually. Depends on bosses I guess, on non-gimped LBC I'd like Hunter's and Samurai, so I can eat my Carbonara and hit decently, probably the same on BCC. On LBC and ACC I dunno, it's more a matter of equiparable choices. You either get acc buff and eat meat, or vice-versa I suppose. (no I didn't try any boss with the +7 from my Usukane Sune-ate, but on some bosses, ACC for example, my acc is very low if I don't eat Sushi, I miss a lot =/ I doubt just +7 from feet is gonna change things completely)
The difference from it would be miniscule, the difference you could get from other rolls instead could be way more effective over the whole alliance performance against bosses.

This is what I always thought, at least.

[shukuffxi]

Is it possible Monk's Roll pushes Subtle Blow over the cap? This should be fairly easy to test w/ a MNK+BST+COR? From experience, Chariot fights with one MNK + Monk's Roll, TP moves were just less frequent, "eyeballing it".

[Genosync]

Is it possible Monk's Roll pushes Subtle Blow over the cap? This should be fairly easy to test w/ a MNK+BST+COR? From experience, Chariot fights with one MNK + Monk's Roll, TP moves were just less frequent, "eyeballing it".

If I still had my data on this, I could prove to you it doesn't.

But all that shit is gone along with my whole entire windower folder, so I can only give you my word that it caps at 50% period, no matter where the bonuses come from (JT, equip, roll).

This is what I'd tend to do on Chariots, if you have BRD+COR for tank PT:

MNK: Meat
BRD: Madrigal, March
COR: Chaos, Rogue's but if not lucky/11, fold/bust and put up SAM roll (avg ends up being what, +20 store TP without SAM? that's not too bad, just hard to hit lucky since it's a 2)

[aurik]

1) Penance is -25% tp gain, not +25 SB
2) SB caps at 50 after the effects of mnk roll are added
3) Monk's roll is still hot for meleeing bosses, but moreso with a war or other job feeding TP. Mnk is already massively efficient in the tp-given-to-damage-dealt department.

[Kylen]

I'm probably gonna stick with Monk's/Chaos Rolls for Chariots, especially seeing as one of our MNK tanks doesn't have Black Belt, the other doesn't have Rajas Ring, and neither have Usukane Gote, and we occasionally have a WAR in there tanking in addition to or in place of a MNK. I can see how Monk's Roll wouldn't be very effective on a NIN with 40 Subtle Blow already from traits/merits/gear, though.

If I were to replace Monk's Roll with something, it would probably be Hunter's Roll, to allow the tanks to eat meat while the BRD sings double Marches or March/Min. Rogue's Roll is pretty weak without a THF in the party to boost it.

[BerenTebogo]

I think if you have a WAR, Monk's roll is definitely the pro choice to make. Our main MNK eats meat on the chariots already decently and I can get away with hedgehog pie + haub +1 for TP if I want, but I usually just use a sushi and use metsu anyways. In my specific situation Monk's roll offers absolutely zero effect whatsoever to the boss fight due to <1 TP differential for the MNK per swing, and 50% minimum subtle blow effect for myself due to relic weaponskill effect.

Rogue's is pretty weak without a THF in party, but I thought hunters was also? SAM roll is actually looking like a very viable option, I remember when I xp'd WAR as WAR/SAM with Gaxe in the 60's I had a SAM roll with a SAM in party and had a nice 4-hit to 100 TP situation going.

But in light of SAM roll being so awesome, assuming you have a WAR tanking he is probably using G. Axe not Ridill, wouldn't a 4-hit Raging Rush setup be more efficient to kill speed::chariot move ratio? Pre-25% I'd say it's a possibility, I wouldn't fuck around under 25% but also I'd just find it easier to take them off, or MS it to dead, whichever your group prefers.

The TP gain :: TP dealt ratio for both MNK and NIN is very very nice, but for the past year or so I've read constantly how every group that uses COR uses it as a TP crutch, and as I suspected, most of the validations for it being awesome were 'eyeballed.' There's no doubt it produces some results in any situation, however miniscule, but I consider it still as a crutch, vs. a SAM roll or Crit roll, and from having personally had some rough runs here and there (you all have too) where you've timed out with Monk's roll on with the boss @ 10%...

It's bad luck on one hand, don't get me wrong, any number of things can cause that, but I think it really could free up 5 minutes / run for your group with a COR, 7-8 minutes if you're doing a run fighting a lesser chariot also using roll. That's a good amount of time.

[Judai]

I don't get why Monk's are using Osode or Sushi on Bosses... I'm in Sath's group and we do March/March/Chaos/???(monk's sometimes, sam others, trying to figure it out obvoiusly) and I hit 85-90% Acc on Bosses with Meat.

We also usually don't have a COR when we Time Out on runs at 10% and lower Sath, lol. I don't think we have ever timed out when we brought COR+BRD tbh.

[BerenTebogo]

I don't get why Monk's are using Osode or Sushi on Bosses... I'm in Sath's group and we do March/March/Chaos/???(monk's sometimes, sam others, trying to figure it out obvoiusly) and I hit 85-90% Acc on Bosses with Meat.

We also usually don't have a COR when we Time Out on runs at 10% and lower Sath, lol. I don't think we have ever timed out when we brought COR+BRD tbh.

We have when TL used to come, you have to admit over the past 3? weeks our group has kinda undergone a revitalization. We've been doing better than we ever have.

Wouldn't credit the CORs, or anything else, I just think we all finally got in sync.

[Judai]

I think it's due to getting some nice drops and people not feeling so stressed and like "OMG WHY WON'T SHIT DROP WTF!!" lol, not caring so much about having to do SSR and LAC 20x for one 25 makes runs alot more fun. We did finally get in sync and started full clearing all NMs+Bosses though and i's nice!

[Genosync]

Once you do start getting the drops, things do seem to flow a little easier.

But the other thing is practice.

and more practice.

and more practice.

Until you get sick and tired of it, and then you get a bunch of drops a week after, and then go through a drought for another month.

[fantasticdan]

You're better off doing Chaos and ... I really don't know where I'd go with the other roll. Depends on the ability of the monks. I'd probably be more likely to go with a Crit roll myself, because DA kinda doesn't do much for Asuran (if you're hitting all hits anyway).

I'm probably missing a joke here or something, but neither DA roll or crit roll can do anything for asuran.

[Sechs]

If I were to replace Monk's Roll with something, it would probably be Hunter's Roll, to allow the tanks to eat meat while the BRD sings double Marches or March/Min. Rogue's Roll is pretty weak without a THF in the party to boost it.

If you have 25% haste in gear, or close to that, 1 March + Haste already let you reach the cap on haste, I think I read this a lot of time ago from Aurik in one of old Salvage threads here on BG, talking about a lot of time ago but I think things didn't change since then, did they?

@Judai
Same old discussion. I hit this naked, I miss that with +200 Accuracy, blah blah this, blah blah that. I did post the gear I use on bosses, save Usukane Sune-Ate which I got recently, was using Fuma Sune-ate (that's 7acc difference which is nice). I also have max H2H merits of course.
My Accuracy is far from lol the % you mentioned, as much as I'd be leaning to say not all chariots have the same eva. I tend to notice less problems on LBC for example. Last time we did ACC I was having serious wiff wiff issues, because like a real dumb I used meat on the previous floor (we weren't even supposed to fight ACC actually), and I mean serious problems, up to the point I was losing hate in a few points, that's just not right.
Sushi is overkill, gives me way more accuracy than the one I need, but there is not something "in between", something that gives me little attac (even less than a mithkabob) and little acc (less than a sushi). So, what to do? In those situations I prefer to have a more solid accuracy, personally. Depends on the jobs I have in PT of course, but with just one BRD I usually prefer to get march/minuet.
(yes I know there's hedgehog pie, but it's not really smart, from my point of view, to use a 3h food just for boss. You could use it for the whole run of course, but I never did so far, and honestly +5 is good, but probably not enough for the acc I am to)
As for the osode stuff, osode is one of the best "all-purpose" enhancing body around. Enhances defense, all stats which includes crit rate, accuracy, attack, evasion etc. Isn't that the kind of gear you would want on a Chariot? I use a Semi-DD setup, aiming on subtleblow, some attack, lots of accuracy, and Osode seems perfect to me. I also use it at start of runs, because in my wicked mind it gives me the illusion of partially compensating the attributes pathos.
What other good body option do you see for Chariots? Arakan Samue? Never tried that, could be nice.
Don't tell me Shura Togi... Many use that I bet, I would never use my togi on a chariot honestly *evilgrin*

@Aurik
I guess this may be offensive to your intelligence, but english is not my main language and me and math never been real friends. Mind explaining the difference between -25% TP gained and +25SB? Doesn't +X SB corresponds to -X% TP Given? Capping supposedly at 50% i.e. you give half TP to the target with your TP-giving moves?
Penance is a debuff, so it wouldn't just apply to your moves on him, but also on his moves on you.
Aside from this "detail", what's the difference between -25% TP gained and +25SB?
(of course I just intended it as an example, as to say "Penance is like giving +25SB to Alliance", it's not, but the result is almost the same, or am I missing something?)

[aurik]

@Aurik
I guess this may be offensive to your intelligence, but english is not my main language and me and math never been real friends. Mind explaining the difference between -25% TP gained and +25SB? Doesn't +X SB corresponds to -X% TP Given? Capping supposedly at 50% i.e. you give half TP to the target with your TP-giving moves?
Penance is a debuff, so it wouldn't just apply to your moves on him, but also on his moves on you.
Aside from this "detail", what's the difference between -25% TP gained and +25SB?
(of course I just intended it as an example, as to say "Penance is like giving +25SB to Alliance", it's not, but the result is almost the same, or am I missing something?)

The effects are applied in 2 separate steps. +25 SB is not the same as -25% TP gain for the monster: +25SB stacks with other SB gear, and is limited by the 50 SB cap. Penance effect of -25% TP gain is never capped and is commutative with SB.

The formula is
Enemy TP gain = (your TP gain + 3) * (1-min(SB,50)/100) * (penance?0.75:1)

The formula is NOT
Enemy TP gain = (your TP gain + 3) * (1-min(SB+penance?25:0,50)/100)

[Sechs]

I thought Penance somehow was under the same TP reduction gain cap of Subtle Blow, interesting to know it's not.
I remember I asked this looong time ago, but the ability was too know back then.
You're as insanely informing as usual, thanks to exist <3

[Jem]

Supposed to be doing university work so this is slightly rushed and so this could be horrendously wrong. I'm also skipping out a lot of things which actually will happen as I don't have the time to factor them in at the moment. Assuming my working out is correct, someone could probably easily factor them in.

Assumptions
Martial Arts VI (So MNK tanks)
Destroyers
Subtle Blow IV
Black Belt
Usukane Gote
Raja's Ring
Penance being used

Base TP gained
Base Delay = 348
Delay per hand = 174
TP Gained = 5.0 + [(174-180)*1.5] /180 = 4.95 TP per hit but it truncates to 4.9 per hit

Mob TP gained
Enemy TP gain = (your TP gain + 3) * (1-min(SB,50)/100) * (penance?0.75:1)
= (4.9 + 3) * (1-0.35) * (penance?0.75:1)
= (7.9 * 0.65) * (penance?0.75:1)
= 5.1 * 0.75 (Note: It's 5.135. It truncates for Base TP and for Store TP so I'm assuming it does for Subtle Blow too)
= 3.8 TP gained per hit (Note: 3.825 but truncated)

That's without Monk's Roll and with the above gear.

Mob TP gained with Monk's Roll

Every roll apart from unlucky 7 puts you over the subtle blow cap with a MNK present so I'll just do 2 calculations. One at Subtle Blow cap and one on an unlucky 7

At cap
Enemy TP gain = (4.9 + 3) * (1-0.5) * (penance?0.75:1)
= (7.9 * 0.5) * (penance?0.75:1)
= 3.9 * 0.75 (Note: Actually 3.95. Assuming truncation once more)
= 2.9 TP per hit (Note: 2.925 not truncated)

Unlucky 7 (Why I'm bothering for -1 SB I don't know)
Enemy TP gain = (4.9 + 3) * (1-0.49) * (penance?0.75:1)
= (7.9 * 0.51) * (penance?0.75:1)
= 4 * 0.75
= 3 TP per hit

So with Monk's Roll you're looking at a reduction of 1.6 - 1.8 TP gained by the mob per round per Monk assuming no double attacks. Sorry but I'm not sure how Kick Attacks TP gained works (My MNK is 18) so I can't factor that in.




What did you want it compared against? Samurai Roll?

Store TP
Raja's Ring +5
Brutal Earring +1
Usukane Sune-Ate +7 (I know you have them Sath so I'm assuming you tank in them. I'm not a MNK or NIN so I have idea what you guys wear)

Is there any other Store TP gear I'm missing?

Samurai Roll

Assuming no SAM in party. Also assuming the COR will double-up on 1, 3, 4, 5 and unlucky 6.

2 = +32 Store TP
7 = +16 Store TP
8 = +20 Store TP
9 = +22 Store TP
10 = +24 Store TP
11 = +40 Store TP

Busts are irrelevant since they only affect the COR.

TP Gained per hit with Samurai Roll
On a 2 = 4.9 * 1.45 = 7.1
7 = 4.9 * 1.29 = 6.3
8 = 4.9 * 1.33 = 6.5
9 = 4.9 * 1.35 = 6.6
10 = 4.9 * 1.37 = 6.7
11 = 4.9 * 1.53 = 7.4 (Actually 7.497 ><)
No roll (I.e. Just Base + Gear) = 4.9 * 1.13 = 5.5

Hits to 100 TP

Note: Haven't factored in WS TP gained which is pretty big but whatever.

11 = 14
2, 9 & 10 = 15
7 & 8 = 16
No roll = 18

Your average roll is going to be between the 8-9 borderline range but both take the same amount of rounds to achieve 100 TP but critically that doesn't include WS TP.






Hmmm. I don't know how I could take it further. I suppose I'd need to know a few things:

1. Asuran Fists TP return (or basically the used weaponskill TP return)
2. Average damage done per WS
3. Average damage sustained per Chariot move
4. The TP amount you want me to assume the Chariot uses a TP move at.
5. Duration of fight

With those figures I could possibly look:

MNK's time taken to 100 TP
Chariot time to TP move
Damage done by WS'es in a given time period
Damage sustained by Chariot TP moves in a given time period


That would kinda compare Samurai Roll versus Monk's Roll right?

Sorry if that's not what you were asking. My mind is kinda frazzled right now from a mountain of university work which I'm trying to put off.






Also slightly off-topic. Sechs join the Chroma forum goddamnit. You're the only member who doesn't have access to the Salvage forums. Oh and saying I don't listen to you hurts Q_Q. <3 you really.

[Valyana]

Mob TP gained = 3.8 TP gained per hit (Note: 3.825 but truncated)
Mob TP gained with Monk's Roll = 2.9 TP per hit (Note: 2.925 not truncated)

That's almost 25% less TP/hit, or 30% longer between mob WS, which isn't nothing. And the difference will be larger without Usu hands, or without Penance.

Because Subtle Blow is calculated via subtraction (1-SB/100), like Haste, it has increasing returns like Haste, so that going from 35 to 50 SB, an increase of only 15%, gives a 25% reduction in mob TP/hit. Jobs without native Subtle Blow will certainly get more benefit from Monk's Roll, but it seems good for a MNK, too.

How much Subtle Blow does Blade: Metsu give?

[FailureMidgard]

This is slightly off topic, but related. I'm sorry if I am missing anything, but I don't understand where the orgasm over monks for TP restriction is coming from (outside of Penance).

The following is a comparison, as I understand it, of a monk vs samurai for tp gained by the enemy.

I'm working under a few basic assumptions, so I'll state those first:

1. Both characters are /nin.
2. Enemy TP gain = (your base TP gain + 3) * (1-min(SB,50)/100)
3. The 2 characters do the exact same total damage.

First off, to compare TP/second gained by an enemy.

Hagun, Rajas, /nin (note StoreTP does not increase TP gained by the enemy)
(11.5+3)*(1-.15)=14.5*.85 = 12.3/hit
450 delay (7.5seconds)
1.64 tp/sec

Destroyers, Rajas, BB /nin
(4.9+3)*(1-.30)=7.9*.7=5.5/hit, 10.0/cycle
348 delay (5.8seconds)
10/5.8 = 1.724 tp/sec

Now, a few things to note. First off, I didn't truncate the tp/sec gain because that's an abstract idea, not one recognized by the game. If you get 1 attack round per 5 seconds, the 1.724 becomes 8.62 (8.6), which is different than 1.7*5 (8.5). Second, haste should scale both damage and tp gained by the enemy at the same rate [ 1/(1-x) ]. Also, it should be noted that the derivative of this is an increasing function (1% haste adds more damage the more haste you have), and while that is good for damage done, since the enemytp function is the same, it will not help your damage:enemytp ratio, where something like +attack or +strength would. Third, I assumed that both jobs did the same damage, which is likely never the case. However, I feel it is a decent baseline for comparison, and which job does more damage is dependent on gear, skill, merits, etc.

I did leave out 2 things, because I was unsure as to how they work:
1. Asuran Fists enemy TP gain. Do they gain TP like players? Or do they get TP for each hit more similar to a BLU spell? Even if they get it like players do from WSes, 5.5+7=12.5. If it's more like their gain from a BLU spell, this is a huge hit to MNKs.
2. Kick Attacks...do these work like double attacks (full tp), or are they 1-tp returns?



Please correct me if I am wrong somewhere, but I believe my comparison above put monks at their best for TP restriction, and they still generate more TP for the enemy than a samurai.