Monk's roll and MNK and NIN

[aurik]

I did leave out 2 things, because I was unsure as to how they work:
1. Asuran Fists enemy TP gain. Do they gain TP like players? Or do they get TP for each hit more similar to a BLU spell? Even if they get it like players do from WSes, 5.5+7=12.5. If it's more like their gain from a BLU spell, this is a huge hit to MNKs.
2. Kick Attacks...do these work like double attacks (full tp), or are they 1-tp returns?



Please correct me if I am wrong somewhere, but I believe my comparison above put monks at their best for TP restriction, and they still generate more TP for the enemy than a samurai.

I didn't actually double-check your numbers.

- for all weaponskills, additional 1tp-gain hits don't give any TP. So it's like a normal combat round.
- kick attacks give and gain the same TP as a punch does.

As for TP efficiency, Samurai melee dot is much lower than monk melee dot. Hence, while during pure melee, monk gets a lot more damage in for the same amount of TP.

Samurai is naturally a very TP-efficient job due to 1) the massive amount of store TP they can stack up and 2) the fact that a lot of their damage comes from WS, which are inherently a ton more TP-given-efficient than melee. In essence, since there is a +3/hit penalty for giving tp, you ideally want to be hitting less often. SB offsets that to a large degree.

The comparison is best made, however, against Ninja, DW war, and (especially) thf.

[FailureMidgard]

I did leave out 2 things, because I was unsure as to how they work:
1. Asuran Fists enemy TP gain. Do they gain TP like players? Or do they get TP for each hit more similar to a BLU spell? Even if they get it like players do from WSes, 5.5+7=12.5. If it's more like their gain from a BLU spell, this is a huge hit to MNKs.
2. Kick Attacks...do these work like double attacks (full tp), or are they 1-tp returns?



Please correct me if I am wrong somewhere, but I believe my comparison above put monks at their best for TP restriction, and they still generate more TP for the enemy than a samurai.

I didn't actually double-check your numbers.

- for all weaponskills, additional 1tp-gain hits don't give any TP. So it's like a normal combat round.
- kick attacks give and gain the same TP as a punch does.

As for TP efficiency, Samurai melee dot is much lower than monk melee dot. Hence, while during pure melee, monk gets a lot more damage in for the same amount of TP.

Samurai is naturally a very TP-efficient job due to 1) the massive amount of store TP they can stack up and 2) the fact that a lot of their damage comes from WS, which are inherently a ton more TP-given-efficient than melee. In essence, since there is a +3/hit penalty for giving tp, you ideally want to be hitting less often. SB offsets that to a large degree.

The comparison is best made, however, against Ninja, DW war, and (especially) thf.

Good to know on my 2 questions, however, I disagree with you on mnk dot vs TP gain.

If a Samurai and a Monk both auto-attack a mob with the -same- haste value and 0 kicks occur, the TP/second is as I said it was (that included SB from Black Belt also, so chances are the Mnk has more haste with a similar gear setup).

Assume the following haste:
March (11), Haste (15), Byakkos (5), Walahra (5), Swift Belt (Sam, 4), Black Belt (Mnk, 12), Fumas (3).
That puts the Sam at 43% and the Mnk at 51%.
Using the 1/(1-x) relationship:
Sam: 1.7543
Mnk: 2.0408

Multiplying this by the initial values of TP/sec:
1.64*1.7543 = 2.877 TP/sec
1.724*2.0408 = 3.518 TP/sec

Previously, the Monk was generating 5% more tp/sec than the Samurai. Now, with the fact that a good part of a BB Mnk's increased DoT is increased haste, he is generating over 22% more TP for the enemy than the Samurai.

Also, don't forget I assumed 0 kick attacks, which for all things TP, is in favor of the monk. The fact of the matter is, I assumed the same damage from pure auto attacks. I didn't know the kick attack TP until you posted, nor did I know the proc rate, however, in order for that mnk to obtain the higher DoT, he needs those kicks to land. If wiki is correct (no clue), a merited mnk has a 15% chance to grant a full extra hit worth of TP, or, 15% more TP gained by the enemy (post-haste numbers).
3.518*1.15 = 4.045 TP/sec
That is 40.5% more TP gained by the enemy than a Samurai auto-attacking. Is a Mnk's DoT that much higher? And again, we're ignoring the WS-portion still, which favors the sam.


As a side, you should look over my math. This is my understanding, yet everyone out there swears by monks for TP restriction. Yet, with the constant (3) in the TP gain formula, it ends up not in their favor. Either people are wrong because they see "Subtle Blow" on the main job and get blinded by it, or my math is wrong somewhere, or the assumptions I based off of are wrong.

[aurik]

I did leave out 2 things, because I was unsure as to how they work:
1. Asuran Fists enemy TP gain. Do they gain TP like players? Or do they get TP for each hit more similar to a BLU spell? Even if they get it like players do from WSes, 5.5+7=12.5. If it's more like their gain from a BLU spell, this is a huge hit to MNKs.
2. Kick Attacks...do these work like double attacks (full tp), or are they 1-tp returns?



Please correct me if I am wrong somewhere, but I believe my comparison above put monks at their best for TP restriction, and they still generate more TP for the enemy than a samurai.

I didn't actually double-check your numbers.

- for all weaponskills, additional 1tp-gain hits don't give any TP. So it's like a normal combat round.
- kick attacks give and gain the same TP as a punch does.

As for TP efficiency, Samurai melee dot is much lower than monk melee dot. Hence, while during pure melee, monk gets a lot more damage in for the same amount of TP.

Samurai is naturally a very TP-efficient job due to 1) the massive amount of store TP they can stack up and 2) the fact that a lot of their damage comes from WS, which are inherently a ton more TP-given-efficient than melee. In essence, since there is a +3/hit penalty for giving tp, you ideally want to be hitting less often. SB offsets that to a large degree.

The comparison is best made, however, against Ninja, DW war, and (especially) thf.

Good to know on my 2 questions, however, I disagree with you on mnk dot vs TP gain.

If a Samurai and a Monk both auto-attack a mob with the -same- haste value and 0 kicks occur, the TP/second is as I said it was (that included SB from Black Belt also, so chances are the Mnk has more haste with a similar gear setup).

Assume the following haste:
March (11), Haste (15), Byakkos (5), Walahra (5), Swift Belt (Sam, 4), Black Belt (Mnk, 12), Fumas (3).
That puts the Sam at 43% and the Mnk at 51%.
Using the 1/(1-x) relationship:
Sam: 1.7543
Mnk: 2.0408

Multiplying this by the initial values of TP/sec:
1.64*1.7543 = 2.877 TP/sec
1.724*2.0408 = 3.518 TP/sec

Previously, the Monk was generating 5% more tp/sec than the Samurai. Now, with the fact that a good part of a BB Mnk's increased DoT is increased haste, he is generating over 22% more TP for the enemy than the Samurai.

Also, don't forget I assumed 0 kick attacks, which for all things TP, is in favor of the monk. The fact of the matter is, I assumed the same damage from pure auto attacks. I didn't know the kick attack TP until you posted, nor did I know the proc rate, however, in order for that mnk to obtain the higher DoT, he needs those kicks to land. If wiki is correct (no clue), a merited mnk has a 15% chance to grant a full extra hit worth of TP, or, 15% more TP gained by the enemy (post-haste numbers).
3.518*1.15 = 4.045 TP/sec
That is 40.5% more TP gained by the enemy than a Samurai auto-attacking. Is a Mnk's DoT that much higher? And again, we're ignoring the WS-portion still, which favors the sam.


As a side, you should look over my math. This is my understanding, yet everyone out there swears by monks for TP restriction. Yet, with the constant (3) in the TP gain formula, it ends up not in their favor. Either people are wrong because they see "Subtle Blow" on the main job and get blinded by it, or my math is wrong somewhere, or the assumptions I based off of are wrong.

Yes, mnk melee-phase dot is much higher.

The "tp efficiency" argument is mainly when comparing nin, war, thf, mnk. Generally when discussing the pros and cons for low-man tanks. For example, 3- or 2-man limbus. Mnks generally are the best for it, I find, because of the tp issue.

The consideration isn't so much TP per second, but how many TP moves the mob gets off before it dies. Reducing that number from 3-4 (eg, with thfs) to 1-2 (with penance+mnks) makes a huge difference when you have extremely limited support.

FWIW, I wouldn't generally even consider taking a samurai for low-man limbus, so it makes the comparison moot.

[BerenTebogo]

Mob TP gained = 3.8 TP gained per hit (Note: 3.825 but truncated)
Mob TP gained with Monk's Roll = 2.9 TP per hit (Note: 2.925 not truncated)

That's almost 25% less TP/hit, or 30% longer between mob WS, which isn't nothing. And the difference will be larger without Usu hands, or without Penance.

Because Subtle Blow is calculated via subtraction (1-SB/100), like Haste, it has increasing returns like Haste, so that going from 35 to 50 SB, an increase of only 15%, gives a 25% reduction in mob TP/hit. Jobs without native Subtle Blow will certainly get more benefit from Monk's Roll, but it seems good for a MNK, too.

How much Subtle Blow does Blade: Metsu give?

Haven't been able to get a reliable number since there are 0 BST in my LS above 60 (not even kidding) so I've been stuck a little bit, however I can say 100% that with the setup I listed for standard NIN it puts me 100% at cap for subtle blow (still undetermined if it goes above and beyond the cap)

SAM roll was 1 comparison, I still find that Rogue's Roll (crit) or hunter's roll (ACC) may have their own merits as I think we can all agree that without sushi MNK and NIN will be in the low 80's% ACC.

[FailureMidgard]

Well, I was referring more to Salvage (Bosses/Chariots esp), but even in Limbus, I think it is the same. I don't know which zones you refer to as low man, but we've been running with 3 and a Sam/Nin tank, and I can't see a Mnk doing better. Especially on something like the Apollyon-SE 2nd Floor Boss, a Sam's 2hr is more reliable than a Mnk's (but that's entirely a different story, not to mention the dmg:tp ratio on the 2hours).

In any case, while I agree a Monk does more DoT than a Samurai, I'm not sure if it is 40% more in most situations (especially with the assumption that they do the same damage in the end).

Anyway, there are other benefits that many jobs get that I wasn't even thinking about. "Best" overall is very subjective. Just for pure TP-limitation, I do not think that Monks are the top. I think that Penance for other melee is the biggest thing they bring as far as TP limitation is concerned.

[Edit: Part of the reason for me wanting to figure this out is people's attitude about not taking X job for a low man thing. I think Monks are very very overrated for Subtle Blow in a lot of these situations.]

[aurik]

Well, I was referring more to Salvage (Bosses/Chariots esp), but even in Limbus, I think it is the same. I don't know which zones you refer to as low man, but we've been running with 3 and a Sam/Nin tank, and I can't see a Mnk doing better. Especially on something like the Apollyon-SE 2nd Floor Boss, a Sam's 2hr is more reliable than a Mnk's (but that's entirely a different story, not to mention the dmg:tp ratio on the 2hours).

In any case, while I agree a Monk does more DoT than a Samurai, I'm not sure if it is 40% more in most situations (especially with the assumption that they do the same damage in the end).

Anyway, there are other benefits that many jobs get that I wasn't even thinking about. "Best" overall is very subjective. Just for pure TP-limitation, I do not think that Monks are the top. I think that Penance for other melee is the biggest thing they bring as far as TP limitation is concerned.

[Edit: Part of the reason for me wanting to figure this out is people's attitude about not taking X job for a low man thing. I think Monks are very very overrated for Subtle Blow in a lot of these situations.]

I do all the zones low-man; apollyon zones with 2-3, temenos n/s/e with 3, temenos central with 4-5...SE is about the easiest apollyon there is. Monk gets more natural haste and has JAs more conducive to working without or with limited support, and is slightly more TP-efficient.

2nd floor apollyon boss is not hard. If you are working with a rdm, chainspell nuke. With a bard, just kite it around the ribcage during 2h. Monk 2h on 2 crabs, don't need it or want it for the boss.

[Jem]

- for all weaponskills, additional 1tp-gain hits don't give any TP. So it's like a normal combat round.
- kick attacks give and gain the same TP as a punch does.

Ok, I can finish off the calculations for Samurai roll then.

Tp Gained per hit

Assumed: Store TP + 13 from gear

On a 2 = 4.9 * 1.45 = 7.1
7 = 4.9 * 1.29 = 6.3
8 = 4.9 * 1.33 = 6.5
9 = 4.9 * 1.35 = 6.6
10 = 4.9 * 1.37 = 6.7
11 = 4.9 * 1.53 = 7.4 (Actually 7.497 ><)
No roll (I.e. Just Base + Gear) = 4.9 * 1.13 = 5.5

TP Gained per Asuran Fists

Going to do it for 5, 6 and 7 hits.

5 Hit Asuran
On a roll of 2 = 8.9 * 1.45 = 12.9
7 = 8.9 * 1.29 = 11.4
8 = 8.9 * 1.33 = 11.8
9 = 8.9 * 1.35 = 12
10 = 8.9 * 1.37 = 12.1
11 = 8.9 * 1.53 = 13.6
No roll = 8.9 * 1.13 = 10

6 Hit Asuran
On a roll of 2 = 9.9 * 1.45 = 14.3
7 = 9.9 * 1.29 = 12.7
8 = 9.9 * 1.33 = 13.1
9 = 9.9 * 1.35 = 13.3
10 = 9.9 * 1.37 = 13.5
11 = 8.9 * 1.53 = 15.1
No roll = 9.9 * 1.13 = 11.1

7 Hit Asuran
On a roll of 2 = 10.9 * 1.45 = 15.8
7 = 10.9 * 1.29 = 14
8 = 10.9 * 1.33 = 14.4
9 = 10.9 * 1.35 = 14.7
10 = 10.9 * 1.37 = 14.9
11 = 10.9 * 1.53 = 16.6
No roll = 10.9 * 1.13 = 12.3


Hits to 100TP

Going to assume an average of 6 hits per Asuran. Can plug in different figures if requested.

2 = (100 - 14.3) / 7.1 = 12.07 (13 hits with 6 Hit or lower Asuran. 12 hits with higher)
7 = (100 - 12.7) / 6.3 = 13.85 (14 hits)
8 = (100 - 13.1) / 6.5 = 13.36 (14 hits)
9 = (100 - 13.3) / 6.6 = 13.13 (14 hits)
10 = (100 - 13.5) / 6.7 = 12.91 (13 hits)
11 = (100 - 15.1) / 7.4 = 11.47 (12 hits)
No roll = (100 - 11.1) / 5.5 = 16.16 (17 hits)

Time to 100TP

Assumed: 25% gear haste, Haste spell, Double March (20%) for total of 60% Haste

Delay per round = 348 * (1 - 0.6) = 139.2
Seconds per round = 139.2 / 60 = 2.32 seconds per round

Kick Attacks frequency = 15%
Double Attack frequency = 5%

Without adding messy maths in there, you're basically looking at 1 free hit for every 5 thrown. It'll be slightly different than that but not enough to make a significant distance.

I'm going to assume 1 free hit every 2.5 rounds.

12 hits = 5 Rounds + 2 Double-attacks / Kick attacks
13 hits = 6 Rounds + 2 Double-attacks / Kick-attacks
14 hits = 6 Rounds + 2 Double-attacks / Kick-attacks
17 hits = 8 Rounds + 3 Double-attacks / Kick attacks

You should be averaging 2 'free' hits every 5 rounds so the difference between 13 + 14 hit is actually zero in time. The 12 hit build is only on an 11 so I'll disregard that.

Time to 100 TP with SAM roll = 6 * 2.32 = 13.92 seconds
Time to 100 TP without SAM roll = 8 * 2.32 = 18.56 seconds

You gain 100 TP 25% faster with Samurai roll than without.

Chariot TP gained per Asuran Fist

Monk's Roll, no Samurai roll = 18 * 2.9 + 2.9 = 55.1
Samurai Roll, no Monk's roll = 14 * 3.8 + 3.8 = 57

So you're looking at the Chariot gaining an extra 1.9 TP per Asuran Fists with Samurai Roll but you're using Asuran Fists 25% more often. That's double-edged though. You'd have over 100 TP after 13.92 seconds but the Chariot would have 57 TP too where it'd normally take ~19-20 seconds to reach the same amount of TP with Monk's Roll.


Next time I enter Salvage I'll turn off my filters and use a parser so I can see how much Sechs averages per swing and WS. That way I can kind of work out which is going to be better in the long run.

[Sechs]

Next time I enter Salvage I'll turn off my filters and use a parser so I can see how much Sechs averages per swing and WS. That way I can kind of work out which is going to be better in the long run.

Remember, while parsing, that there are a lot more variables to consider imho when judging these things, a few examples:

1) is someone using ranged attack?
2) do monks have some slots locked? (attributes? gear?)
3) what are we fighting? (things may change slightly for each of the 4 bosses)
4) how many do we have? (are we 7? are we 11?)

According to all these little variables, the final outcome of the question "Which roll should I use?" may differ, imho.
Of course job setup for the alliance matters too, consider having 3 BLMs or SCHs for example dealing high damage with dots and spells which actually give little to none TP to the chariot.
Job setup in main pt is not a real issue since we're assuming to judge those situations where you have both a BRD and a COR, I guess.
My perception to this, aside from calculations which will eventually prove me right or wrong, is that in most situations (i.e. all bosses aside maybe low men BCC?) imho it's definitely better to use other rolls, instead than Monk's. Which to use in place depends on the bard and many and what u're fighting I guess. Hunter, Thief and Samurai rolls all seem very nice to me.


P.S.
How does TP situation work for chariot bosses under 25%? I don't think they gain a little Regain (TP regen) effect, but maybe they use TP moves at lower %? Like maybe they use TP moves at 125TP from 100% to 25% HP, and start using them at 100TP under 25?
Maybe it's just my impression but I always got the feeling they use TP moves more under 25% HP

[Jem]

Next time I enter Salvage I'll turn off my filters and use a parser so I can see how much Sechs averages per swing and WS. That way I can kind of work out which is going to be better in the long run.

Remember, while parsing, that there are a lot more variables to consider imho when judging these things, a few examples:

1) is someone using ranged attack?
2) do monks have some slots locked? (attributes? gear?)
3) what are we fighting? (things may change slightly for each of the 4 bosses)
4) how many do we have? (are we 7? are we 11?)

According to all these little variables, the final outcome of the question "Which roll should I use?" may differ, imho.
Of course job setup for the alliance matters too, consider having 3 BLMs or SCHs for example dealing high damage with dots and spells which actually give little to none TP to the chariot.
Job setup in main pt is not a real issue since we're assuming to judge those situations where you have both a BRD and a COR, I guess.
My perception to this, aside from calculations which will eventually prove me right or wrong, is that in most situations (i.e. all bosses aside maybe low men BCC?) imho it's definitely better to use other rolls, instead than Monk's. Which to use in place depends on the bard and many and what u're fighting I guess. Hunter, Thief and Samurai rolls all seem very nice to me.


P.S.
How does TP situation work for chariot bosses under 25%? I don't think they gain a little Regain (TP regen) effect, but maybe they use TP moves at lower %? Like maybe they use TP moves at 125TP from 100% to 25% HP, and start using them at 100TP under 25?
Maybe it's just my impression but I always got the feeling they use TP moves more under 25% HP

For the parsing most of the things you said wouldn't matter. This is Monk's Roll versus other more offensive rolls. I just need to know your average hit value, accuracy and average WS value. As long as I used the same values for all rolls it should be reasonably valid. Numbers involved in the fight and the damage every else does isn't all that relevant as when I do the working out I'll assume the vast majority of damage comes from the tanks.

I'm not going to do one fight with 2 rolls on you and then another fight with 2 different rolls on you with a possibly different set-up and then compare the parses if that's what you're thinking. What I was going to do is work out your average damage per hit, accuracy, crit rate and WS damage. Then I'd work out how long it took 2 of you to do 50k damage and then apply the different rolls to that scenario to see how they compare.

Slight sidenote but Ranged Attacks still show up in parses. Also I only ever use Quick Draw on bosses when I'm on COR because I don't fancy feeding them 16+ TP per hit for pew pew damage with my gun. It's just not worth it.



TP works for Chariots below 25% HP like practically every other mob in the game. I say practically as there's probably some mob somewhere who doesn't conform to the rules. They use a TP move as soon as they reach 100TP.

Above 25% HP, they use it at a random once they have 100+ TP but seemingly this can be provoked by spike damage or abilities. At least that is how I always understood it. I may be wrong on the above 25% HP thing but I know that's how mob TP works below 25% HP. It's why you often see a mob use a TP move as soon as they drop below 25% HP.




As for which roll is best for our group Sechs, let's be honest, it's always going to be situational. I've been giving you Monk's Roll plus Chaos Roll the majority of the time on bosses purely because we normally have shed loads of time left and it has worked for us so far. If we have stacks of time on the clock, I don't really need to change my rolling strategy to speed up the kill time. Although I may do in future pending on what gets proven or disproved in this topic.

Also, think back to when you made that suggestion. It was only your second run with my group and the first time you were tanking a boss with my group. I know that you're good now but I didn't when you made the suggestion. I could hardly be expected to change the strategy to one which was riskier and would mean more TP moves when I didn't know how good my tank was. The other thing to note was that was the first run where I personally wasn't on COR and someone else was playing the job instead. So overall, any changes that were made to the usual, I wouldn't have been able to pin down what caused them. You being on MNK, the different rolls being used or a different roll strategy by the COR? So I opted not to change anything.

What rolls did you get on the boss after that, Armored Chariot? You should have been getting Chaos + Hunter's instead of Chaos + Monk's.

[Sechs]

I could hardly be expected to change the strategy

I never really demanded you to <3
I mean... I was just sharing my opinion, I wasn't assuming that what I said back then was the absolute truth (also, my thinking was flawed because I thought Penance too had to stay under the 50% TP give cap )

What rolls did you get on the boss after that, Armored Chariot? You should have been getting Chaos + Hunter's instead of Chaos + Monk's.

I need to fight Armored Chariot more to make a few decisions, and I need to try how I perform there with Usukane Sune-ate.
Of all bosses that's the one I noticed more accuracy issues (up to the point I was starting to lose hate, remember?), and on mobs like that probably it's better to just eat sushi (so you're sure you're gonna have that effect on 100% of the time, even if your other COR-BRD buffs wear, or if COR-BRD die).
I don't really know, I need to test more. Well not like ACC is that hard lol, we can kill it with our eyes closed and our hands folded, the time we're talking about I was solo tanking it, and that's a bit different.
Also, honestly, I think we wouldn't have had any issue with killing it with just me solotanking. Sure situation got a big messy now and then due to a few mistakes (I sure did some) but our "real" problem was just time on that run

[Jem]

Of all bosses that's the one I noticed more accuracy issues (up to the point I was starting to lose hate, remember?), and on mobs like that probably it's better to just eat sushi

I think that is more likely to be down to lacking certain cells rather than the boss being more evasive. You're not really guaranteed a Fractus cell as the Qiqirn Treasure Hunter doesn't always drop Fractus and the other mobs which drop it are: Nipper (We never go near them), Goobbue Wanderer (We don't touch the Ramparts that spawn it), Staggering Saping (Don't touch the rampart), Seasonal Treant (Doesn't always spawn and not 100% drop). So if the QQTH doesn't drop one then you aren't guaranteed to get one.

By the way, I'm not sure if it's obvious or not but I'm in charge of Tuesday runs and Daiiawn is in charge of Friday runs. When you solo tanked Armored Chariot it was a Friday run so I take no responsibility for it whatsoever Actually if truth be told, we only decided to go for Armored Chariot last minute on that run. Originally we were just going to check our kill speed with that group on the 6F and then use flies. It was because I messed up when porting and ported us before we did 5F QQA by mistake (Completely forgot we hadn't already killed him)

I'll stop there as we're in danger of derailing here.