Detonator Theories?

[Callisto]

Apologies in advance, wall o' text.

Something I've just been curious about, and couldn't find other testing and such on...lately I've taken a shine to just using meat on COR in Greater Colibri meripos and sticking to Detonator full time, Sushi just isn't financially viable for me in parties where every WS I shoot is going to pull hate unless I want to hold TP til the mob is at 30%- every single time. I don't like doing this because half the time when it gets there another party member puts up a big WS and finishes it off before I can fire mine, leaving me sitting at full TP but unable to WS the mob at the start of the next fight. With Detonator I can just fire it whenever I hit 100%, if I lose the Coeurl Sub/Dumpling/whatever no biggie.

As I'm sure you guys know there's some sort of hidden effect on Detonator that makes it do more damage than it should be able to, even with capped pDIF. Assuming the ranged pDIF were to still cap at 3.0, I shouldn't be able to hit more than 1125~ on Detonator at 100% TP with Martial Gun/Light Gorget, but I can consistently put up 1400+(no pics atm b/c I play on 360, but I can get some taken if this is disputed). BGWiki and some other places I've seen explanations along the lines of:

The ranged attack value seems to be doubled when using this weapon skill.

However, if this were the case there'd still be a point where you'd cap out, and unless pDIF cap was raised to over 4-5 from 3.0 you still couldn't do 1400+ with capped RAtk. I was kind of racking my brain trying to figure out what the hidden deal is that makes the higher damage possible, and one that I came up with was if it's possible that your AGI is added to base damage a la Trick Attack?

As COR/WAR with Coeurl subs I have 92 STR and 84 AGI in my Detonator setup, assuming an average pDIF of 2.50(which is around where I believe my WS to be around, I'd have needed a 2.52 to hit my current highest WS of a 2245~ Slug in my old WS set) I'd expect to see about 940 damage out of Detonator on a Greater Colibri...this is what I hit with no food or Berserk up. If my 84 AGI were added to my base damage of 143, it would see something around 1480 with the same pDIF, which is much closer to the damage I see with Minuet/Berserk/Chaos/Subs.

Anyways, I just thought of this now at work so I haven't gotten a chance to test varying amounts of AGI with it, I'll do so as soon as possible, but I was curious if anyone else had thought of or tested this before.

[VZX]

1400~/1125 is very close to 1.25.

Possible chance of crit?

[Callisto]

1400~/1125 is very close to 1.25.

Possible chance of crit?

Detonator can't crit AFAIK, only Heavy Shot can(which COR can't use), and the damage on Detonator is rather consistent assuming the same buffs are on at all times.

Edit: I also highly doubt that I'm actually at the assumed 3.0 pDIF cap most times either way, which I'd need to be for the difference between normal/crit to line up at 1.25. And yeah, the 1100/1400~ #'s already took the piercing bonus into consideration if someone was going to ask that next.

[Callisto]

Lol, well tested it and I'm wrong, expected as much but the idea matched the math earlier, oh well back to the drawing board.

[Genosync]

A. for the love of god do not use dumplings please
B. I know sushi is expensive as hell, try to get someone to make it for you, because your melee accuracy isn't so hot without it... same thing for shihei
C. part of a good Corsair is knowing when you need to WS and using it to save the chain, or just fucking going full throttle like you were a real melee anyway--and unfortunately, to be completely effective in both scenarios, you've gotta suck it up and use sushi. You're support, not a damage dealer--even if the damage is quite ridiculous anyway.

(and yes, this is coming from someone that did play his Corsair full throttle melee at birds; did a lot of duo/trios too.. and tried most combinations that you could come up with for food/buffs)

The only, only time I'd even begin to think about using meat on Corsair is with a Ranger in the PT, and throwing out Hunter's Roll. Other than that, fuck no.

So you can take your BRD COR RDM melee x3s, or you can take your BRD BRD COR RDM melee x2s, and I'm sure you know what each of them requires in terms of a monetary expense.

And just get a K.club Yoichi RNG. That'll take care of your losing food issue. Unless he eats meat and misses 75% of his Sidewinders because he's WSing in full STR and ignoring all RACC.

[Kryton]

The extra damage could not be the fact that you are using a gun (piercing damage) on a bird (colibri)?

Edit: VZX and Original OP beat me to it, sorry.

[Callisto]

The only, only time I'd even begin to think about using meat on Corsair is with a Ranger in the PT, and throwing out Hunter's Roll. Other than that, fuck no.

Yeah I typically only merit with LS members so I can pick and choose the jobs a bit more, and generally with a RNG and a DRK or SAM. I only see about 77% without Hunter's, so I try to set it up so that I can use it. It's not that I have a huge problem paying for the sushi, really COR needs Squid+1 to be effective at most everything I do and I use a bunch of it, but there was a point where I was literally blowing through 1.5-2 stacks of sushi a party, and it was starting to get annoying.

Honestly I'd rather just have parties that killed Mamools or some new merit camp so I could go balls out and not lose food every time I WS'd, like you said it's not necessarily meant to be a DD, but if the potential is there you may as well not waste it.

Add: Mystery solved, lol. BGWiki has incorrect fTP values for Detonator, that's what was fucking my math all to hell.

[VZX]

Lol, well tested it and I'm wrong,

that 1400+ did not exist?

[Kylen]

The only, only time I'd even begin to think about using meat on Corsair is with a Ranger in the PT, and throwing out Hunter's Roll. Other than that, fuck no.

Yeah, especially if you're going COR/WAR, I can't see how you could possibly have acceptable melee accuracy on Colibri using meat. I tried meat as COR/RNG once and even that was kinda disappointing for me; I had to swap out all my Haste gear for +acc. just to have a semi-acceptable Joyeuse hit rate.

Then again my Detonators are typically in the 1100-1200 range. The only time I recall hitting 1500-1600 with Detonator was when I was in a DRG burn party with Angon/Chaos Roll/Minuets/Berserk up (eating sushi).

I wouldn't use Squid +1 on Colibri either; just stick with NQ Squid. It's not that much more expensive than Coeurl Subs anyway.

[Genosync]

I rolled with Bream, typically, and always, always went /NIN so I could use my TP immediately. I didn't have accuracy issues with Slug Shot at 100% TP, really ever. With RNG and COR, the faster that it's safe to use that TP, the better your parse is normally going to end up.

Eventually I started using Squid again, but I still had issues with money (gearing all 20 jobs, most of them being 75, doesn't exactly let you throw money around).

[Callisto]

Lol, well tested it and I'm wrong,

that 1400+ did not exist?

No, that 1400+ was possible because the fTP mod at 200% was 2.75, not 2.0(I actually had to look on your page to find the info lol, BGWiki had it listed at 2.0).

[VZX]

So you mean... it was the damage before the detonator/empyreal arrow patch?

[Grey Jorildyn]

Having partied with some good Corsairs, I've seen some fairly ridiculous Detonator damage, even on Mamool Ja, which is what I party on a good chunk of the time. A Corsair in my linkshell is actually incredibly well-geared and has pulled over 1200+ Detonators on the mage types, and around 1k on the melee types, including Lurkers. I believe he uses Martial Gun in merits.

I have been wondering if this weapon skill was just always this good or is it something else? This thread is very interesting...

[Wolfknight]

Having partied with some good Corsairs, I've seen some fairly ridiculous Detonator damage, even on Mamool Ja, which is what I party on a good chunk of the time. A Corsair in my linkshell is actually incredibly well-geared and has pulled over 1200+ Detonators on the mage types, and around 1k on the melee types, including Lurkers. I believe he uses Martial Gun in merits.

I have been wondering if this weapon skill was just always this good or is it something else? This thread is very interesting...

It was improved with Empyreal Arrow during the August '07 patch:

The following weapon skills have been adjusted:
Howling Fist/Dragon Kick/Raging Rush/Cross Reaper/Penta Thrust/Skewer/ Yukikaze/Gekko/Kasha/Empyreal Arrow/Detonator

I assume it was made better like Howling Fist/Dragon Kick were.

[VZX]

Your ranged attack value is doubled, but multiplier is lowered. It's now closer to what Y/G/K kind of WS.

Arguably as good as slug if you need 150 TP to fire slug and your pDIF < 1.5 for WSing

2*5.00*pDIF = 10*pDIF (2 slug at 5.0 fTP at pDIF)
3*1.50*2*pDIF= 9*pDIF (3 detonator at 1.50 fTP at 2*pDIF)
3*2.00*2*pDIF= 12*pDIF (using martial gun)

[eva00r]

Let me add a random question about COR here. How accurate is Slug w/Martial Gun, Sea Gorget and +R.Acc gears? (Firing at 100TP)

[Sanjiyan]

2*5.00*pDIF = 10*pDIF (2 slug at 5.0 fTP at pDIF)
3*1.50*2*pDIF= 9*pDIF (3 detonator at 1.50 fTP at 2*pDIF)
3*2.00*2*pDIF= 12*pDIF (using martial gun)

Using this, wouldn't heavy shot do more damage than sidewinder?
3*3.5*pDIF = 10.5*pDIF (plus the chance to crit)

[VZX]

2*5.00*pDIF = 10*pDIF (2 slug at 5.0 fTP at pDIF)
3*1.50*2*pDIF= 9*pDIF (3 detonator at 1.50 fTP at 2*pDIF)
3*2.00*2*pDIF= 12*pDIF (using martial gun)

Using this, wouldn't heavy shot do more damage than sidewinder?
3*3.5*pDIF = 10.5*pDIF (plus the chance to crit)

If you release the slug at 150TP, yeah. If you use less TP, it'll probably go into different case

[Callisto]

Your ranged attack value is doubled, but multiplier is lowered. It's now closer to what Y/G/K kind of WS.

Arguably as good as slug if you need 150 TP to fire slug and your pDIF < 1.5 for WSing

2*5.00*pDIF = 10*pDIF (2 slug at 5.0 fTP at pDIF)
3*1.50*2*pDIF= 9*pDIF (3 detonator at 1.50 fTP at 2*pDIF)
3*2.00*2*pDIF= 12*pDIF (using martial gun)

See, this is exactly what fucked me up before...here you show 1.50/2.00, which is what I had found on BGWiki, but your page and otherwiki show 2.50/2.75/3.00...I'm not sure which of those is the current correct info, but the 1.50/2.00 would mean that the 1400-1600+ that I've seen shouldn't be possible even with maxed pDIF. I'm a tad confused.

Edit: Ok, I think I see what's going on, I think it was just worded poorly...if your actual Ranged Attack value was doubled you'd still see the same 3.0 pDIF cap, from the math you have in there I'm guessing you meant that your Ranged pDIF itself is doubled, not your RAtk. Is that closer?

And maybe I wooshed something, but why would you hold to 150 TP to fire Slug, don't the tiers of accuracy boost occur at the 100's?

[Raylinn]

And maybe I wooshed something, but why would you hold to 150 TP to fire Slug, don't the tiers of accuracy boost occur at the 100's?

100's are anchor points, but each point of tp makes a difference. Check fTP on otherwiki.

I remember right after the change people were thinking it was ignoring defense at higher tp. Can't remember if that was disproved though.